Enough Enzymes ??

[Dnderhead]

converted(small amount of blue /blue specks mite be present from cialose etc)

[Dnderhead]

not converted

[Pop Larkin]

Hi Dunder

Well, I put a little more Iodine in a sample & it turned black, so no conversion !! It used a little more Iodine than a drop or two but none the less it is telling me I don't have conversion. I'm at a loss. I malted the barley as per your instructions. I even hand picked out the grain that had sprouted. Let it dry & se sprouted them. I have no idea what i could have done wrong. Maybe I should just stick with the UJSM method but I was so hoping to be able to produce a really good Bourbon from cooked grains.

I really don't know what to try next!

Pop

[Dnderhead]

Cheat and git some enzymes a little bit goes a long way.

[Pop Larkin]

Hey Dunde

DO I just get enzymes from a local "home brew" supply shop & if so what do I ask for?

Thanks

Pop

[Dnderhead]

If you want enzymes ask for enzymes. some use to make "light" beer $1.50, also used to clear "starch haze" i got in balk .from mile hi
also got some as sample . you can also git yeast with enzymes and you want alpha and glucose , can be bout separate or mixed.
I do not have a brew store . but I did fiend a brewery that will sell me grain.?

[Pop Larkin]

Thanks again Dunder

I will call around & see if I can't get some Alpha enzymes. I just didn't want to "go in blind" & give my little game away.

Although I hate to "cheat", I think that this is the only way I will get this present cooked batch to convert. I will also see if they have any malted barley while I'm at it. I can only assume that this is where I went wrong.

I have been keeping the cooked mash in the stock pot with a heater pad & towel wrapped around it. Hopefully this is OK for the mash & will keep it good until I can get my enzymes.

Thanks again Dunder. I REALLY appreciate all your help & your willingness to share your knowledge with me. There will always be a bottle of the good stuff (once I have figured all this out) waiting for you here !!!

Pop

[Dnderhead]

It is not really "cheating" I use in unmalted grain,(different flavor) potatoes, and others, works good in "rolled" grain and less cooking.
it does not take much, about 1 tea. for 5-6 gal mash.

[Hack]

Hey Pop, what temp did you dry out you malted barley at? If that temp was too high you could have killed the enzymes too. That might explain your conversion problems.

[Pop Larkin]

Hi Guys

Hack. I just air dried the barley at room temp. Still don't know why it didn't work.

Dunder. I found a local brew supplier shop & got some enzymes last night. They also have loads of different malts to choose from. I guess I could have saved myself a load of work if I had done some digging !! He also can crush grain for me which will save hours on the chopping block with a knife! Anyway, this morning, success The Iodine test shows complete conversion so I just pitched my yeast & put the whole thing in the sun to cook I wait with bated breath ..................

I also bought a book on beer brewing. The section on "whole grain brewing" seems to make sense but I was wondering if you need to "cook" corn longer than you would barley to make things work properly. The book says (from memory) to heat water to 160 degrees & pour into mash tun with grain in it. Check temp which should be 157 degrees, close up mash tun & leave for 1 hour checking temp doesn't fall more than 5 degrees. Drain off, spurge & hay presto you are done. It sound to easy to be true. I can only assume that you may have to "cook" the corn a little longer & then cool to 157 to pitch in the malt. How far am I off the mark?

Thanks for the help. Very much appreciated as always!

Pop

[Dnderhead]

Good for you . yes corn takes a bunch of cooking ,not so much other grains. I have a beer site that goes into detail, if you want.
http://howtobrew.com/sitemap.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. You dont git as much out of grain as sugar products but I thank it is much better product well
worth it to me.

[Pop Larkin]

Thanks Dunder.

I'll give it a look. I'm really excited about getting the "all grain mash" going. I am striving to make a good bourbon so I think (& hope) this will be a huge step towards my goal.

Now to make an "all grain" mashing station. It never ends, eh ????

Thanks again & I'll post my results

Pop

[Pop Larkin]

Update.

I decided to ferment on the grain. Once I pitched the yeast, it started to slowly bubble (one bubble every 10 + seconds) with in 2 hours.
7 hours later, after sitting in the sunlight, it's bubbling at least 1 to 2 bubbles every second. This by far the most vigorous ferment I have had to date I really didn't expect this at all. The smell from the air lock is completely different to the UJSM ferment. It will be interesting to see how long it goes for. I'll keep you all posted.

Pop

[Pop Larkin]

Update.

Yesterday morning the mash had slower quite considerably . I put this down to the overnight room temp dropping. I then put my heating pad on the fermenter (which was already wrapped in a thick towel) which steadily brought up the temp over the course of the day & it did indeed start to work a little harder as the day went on .
This morning, although I had mover the fermenter upstairs & placed in front of the hot air vent, as well as having the heating pad on, it is slow again. I turned down the pad & placed in front of the big picture window so the sun can heat the fermenter up. I think it is starting to pick up again but at least it's still working. I will keep it going for as long as it bubbles.

We will see what tomorrow brings !

Pop

[punkin]

Update.

Yesterday morning the mash had slower quite considerably . I put this down to the overnight room temp dropping. I then put my heating pad on the fermenter (which was already wrapped in a thick towel) which steadily brought up the temp over the course of the day & it did indeed start to work a little harder as the day went on .
This morning, although I had mover the fermenter upstairs & placed in front of the hot air vent, as well as having the heating pad on, it is slow again. I turned down the pad & placed in front of the big picture window so the sun can heat the fermenter up. I think it is starting to pick up again but at least it's still working. I will keep it going for as long as it bubbles.

We will see what tomorrow brings !

Pop

Might very well be all but finnished, two or three days isn't unusual for all grain ferments.

[Pop Larkin]

Thanks Punkin.

It's still going........just.

If it's completely stopped bubbling by tomorrow morning I will run it tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait to see that the difference is between UJSM & an all grain cooked mash. I hope it will get me a little closed to my "good bourbon" aspirations !!!

Thanks

Pop

[rad14701]

A grain mash may not totally stop for a very long time although it will slow considerably... As long as the yeast are still alive and active they will trudge along and try to ferment whatever they can find... One of two things will eventually happen to the yeast... They will either ferment out to a high enough ABV to a point where they die, or they will use up all fermentables and go dormant... With and all grain or grain+sugar mash this could take a long time... Most folks don't wait for the yeast to go dormant, they rack off a charge for the still and start another round with what remains in the fermenter... Chances are good that you're at that point, Pop Larkin...

[Pop Larkin]

Well, I finally did it !!!!

I ran my all grain cooked mash today & it turned out great. The flavor is more complex than the UJSM although the yield was down. A small sacrifice for a superior product. I will be interested to see how it ages on toasted oak. I put 1 1/2 x 1/2 x 6 inch stick in 1 Lt of white dog at 60% ABV. I am really hoping this will be a big step towards a "proper" Bourbon.

I really don't know what else I can do to get closer to a Bourbon other than sour the corn. I have friends that work at Jack Daniel's & I will be getting them to sample my product & hopefully they can offer some insight & advice. As always, I hope advice & suggestions will always be forthcoming from members of this forum. I very much respect the advice & skills of everyone here, as after all, it's you guys that have got me this far.

A HUGE THANK YOU TO EVERYONE !!

I finished up my mash tun this morning so as soon as I can get to the brew supply store, I'll have another batch "cookin'"

God I love this hobby !!!!

Pop

[Dnderhead]

If I bought every thing needed it whould be about 5-6$ a q/L ,well worth it and cheaper than buying. I cut the price by malting grans etc
sugar wash whould be a lot cheaper but nowhere as good. Ill take quality over quantity any day.

Happy for you , many happy brewing days

[Pop Larkin]

Thanks Dunder

I have had one 1/2 x 1/2 x 6 inch heavy chard oak stick in 1Lt of my new all grain cooked white dog for 3 days now. It is taking colour well & is tasting better all the time. It has a lot more going on that with the UJSM I think. I am having a VERY hard time leaving it alone. I have tries to hide it from myself but the only trouble is I was there when I hid it !!! IF I can leave it alone long enough, I am expecting great things from it as it ages. I just hope I can resist & leave it to age properly.

I'll keep you posted !!!

Pop

[Dnderhead]

git busy on something else so you take your mind off it,,,,,,, hear is something I found this is from 1880 ( if you like history)


The whiskies made in Kentucky are classed under two general heads, as sweet mash and sour-mash, from the nature of the processes by which they are produced, the distinguishing characteristics of which are in the kind of ferment employed. Sweet mash distillers use only fresh artificial yeast, while in the sour mash process the tub last set for fermentation, or the tub containing the most fresh yeast while at its highest state of fermentation, has yeast taken from it and applied to the small mash-tubs which have already been in mash forty-eight hours, together with rye meal, malt and water mixed thoroughly, and then run off into the fermenter. There it stands seventy-two hours, as required by law, at which period it is ripe and ready for distillation.

The time consumed in the small mash tubs is one of the distinguishing points between sweet and sour-mash whisky, and without the consumption of the this time strictly sour-mash cannot be made. The latter produces a far finer grade of whisky, but at the sacrifice of a number of advantages which somewhat compensate the sweet mash distiller for the inferior quality of his product. These advantages include a yield of from one-fourth to one-third more from the same quality of grain as the result of a more active fermentation, a saving of one-third in time and more than one-third in cost of manufacture, with increased capacity from the same outlay, as the Untied Sates internal revenue laws prescribe that the time of fermentation shall be forty-eight hours in the sweet mash process and seventy two hours in the sour mash. The government classes every distillery under one of these two heads, and requires that each shall use its designated fermenting agent as described above, its officials, on the spot, having personal supervision of the distillery, with instructions to prevent any variation from the prescribed method of precedence. Some sweet mash distillers scald their grains with slop and some with water, the distillation being completed at one operation, without the expense and delay of doubling.

How Whisky is Made

[Pop Larkin]

Nice Dunder!

I was researching on the "Flavoring & Aging" section & came across a posting on "age" by Rock_Creek. It said that "Georgia Moon" was the white dog that Even Williams & Elijah Craig is made from . A friend of mine said it taste like Gasoline & that my UJSM is WAY superior to that. He also said that my "cooked all grain" white dog is light years ahead of both the UJSM & especially the "Georgia Moon" . Therefore I can only assume that the whole "bourbon" taste comes from the "aged in Oak" thing.
I was rather surprised with my first encounter with aging on Oak. It took on colour & Oak taste REALLY quickly. I panicked & replaced the 2 toasted oak sticks with 1 raw Oak stick. To my surprise the taste mellowed considerably & I kinda wished I'd left the toasted Oak in for longer . I was very cautious of over Oaking but now I wonder. I have since had 1 Qt of UJSM on 4 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 toasted Oak cubes for approx. 3 weeks. It is getting good but still lacks the "bourbon" thing. I will leave it as long as I can to see if it takes on a more "Bourbony" character. I figure that it will have around 1 week before I run out of my open stock & have to get into the Oaked UJSM.

Does anyone have a definitive answer to how to get the distinctive Bourbon taste. Am I right in assuming that if you have good white dog then it's all the Oak? Surly the "big boys" do as little as possible to their product to get their Bourbon taste so as hobbyists it should stand to reason that we should be able to easily surpass their efforts?

Thanks

Pop

[Dnderhead]

bourbon is 70% corn ,,, 14% barely,,, 16% rye (spicy) or wheat ( light) and then aged in chard oak . this is only a example recipes very
you can leave oak in longer it "colors" fast at first then slows down.
part of the "whisky" taste comes from the heads and tales. if drank off the still I believe it whould be """BAD"""" aging turns the higher
alcohols and acids/tannins etc into flavors much like artafishel flavors are made. but this takes a long time.

[Pop Larkin]

Hu !
You know, I never thought about that. Kinda strange to think that you need BAD white dog to make GOOD Bourbon but it stands to reason. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Jack Daniel's collect from 75 % down to 55%. Although it will go against the grain (no pun intended), I might have to give it a go once I have a good ready supply of the cooked all grain on Oak.

I'll research further.

Thanks again

Pop

[Dnderhead]

Most of us do not age long enough for it to change (some of the big boys don"t either )
so the next best thing to do is make bigger cuts.witch will give a lighter taste. . Iv read of what they thank happens in a barrel ,quite involved .and so far that has not be duplicated by any mechanical/chemical means.
If you look up artificial flavors you will see where they come from.

[fleetwould]

im real new to this.
I like to drink for "free" well not taxed off my ass any who. and ran across brewing in the encyclopedeia (please excuse my spelling). Then I found fermenting wich led to distilling ...ALL sounded good to me so now that ive fermented everything in the house id like to try distilling.
not ballsy enough yet though couse of all the rigamaroll about flash points and all...dont want to go up in smoke.. .
I mashed raisens ....just boiled them for about 2 hours all together at slowly progressing temps,cooled it and aded fast activated bakers yeast AND HOLY WHA!!!! in 3 ....yes 3 days it was rready including time for a after ferment of sugar water for carbonation between that and the grapefruit mash i made right after, the ol lady and i had a hoot of a night last night and im still just a bit buzzed.
supprizing couse i regularly drink...like every day possible a WHOLE lot of ice beer and this stuff nocked me for a loop.
last night i cooked up some grapefruit juice , pine apple and peach's... has the consistency of a smoothy also some rice wine...gona give er a go tonight since it already brewed over this morning...made a mess:mrgreen:
if any one has ideas for me id love to hear them
thank you all very much for your knowledg and taking the time so others can learn from you.
ive learned a lot here that the encyclopeidea didnt say

[Pop Larkin]

Hi Fleetwood

From my limited experience, I would suggest that you give the "Uncle Jesse Sour Mash" a go. It's "tried & true" & it is relatively easy to make some very fine liquor. There is a thread on it in the "tried & true recipes" section if you search. That will tell you every conceivable thing you may wish to know about it & the process. I started on that & my first run was likened to some of the finest "shine" that a rather experienced friend of mine had ever tasted . Not bad for a rank beginner.

I have since moved onto "cooked all grain" for my mash. This is more work & a LOT more to learn but produces a superior product. I'm kinda obsessive compulsive when I do something. I always strive for perfection & this hobby is proving no exception.

Once you have all the sour mashing & distilling stuff down, then move onto experimentation but I would get the basics down first if it were me. At least you know what you are going to get with UJSM for all your efforts...... & IT'S GOOOOOOOD !!

I hope this helps

Pop

[Wai‘ona]

Hey Pop,
If you want to make an all malted barley wash there is an easy way to do it. The next time you visit the homebrew supply store ask them for malt extract. Malt extract costs a bit more than malt grain, but all of the mashing-enzyme-starch conversion work has been done for you by the maltster. You just heat up a pot of water and stir the extract in. Once this "sweet wort" has cooled down you just pitch your yeast in, and away you go.

Malt extract comes in liquid and dry form. The liquid kind also comes hopped and unhopped - which means the hopped kind has already had the bittering hops added to the extract. You would probably want the unhopped kind (although I hear some small distilleries in the USA are making hopped-beer whiskies that are very tasty) .

Malt extract has no active enzymes in it. All of the enzymes have been deactivated by the extract-making process. Malt extract has no grain husks in it either. If you want to boil your mash with husks you will have to add some to the malt extract sweet wort.

The malt (grains) with the most enzymes available for mashing-starch conversion is American six-row pale malt. There are plenty of extra enzymes available in America six-row to convert a significant amount of corn starch too.

Cool stuff about using Beano for starch conversion! I've never heard of that trick before. I am quite familiar with Beano. I love my BBQ beans and roasted garlic, but I am very unpleasant to be around if I eat them without eating a handful of Beano first...

[Pop Larkin]

Hi Wai‘ona

Like I said, I'm a little obsessive compulsive about some things, so for me using malt extract & enzymes just seems like cheating . I know it really isn't & if it works then hey, I should go with it. I just can't get past the fact that proper Bourbon isn't made using extracts or enzymes etc so theoretically I should be able to produce as good, or even better quality bourbon as they do using the same methods . Like I said, I'm a little obsessive about some things & I WILL keep going until I crack it. When I do I will post just what I did so others can benefit. It just may take a while..............

Thanks for your insight. I have read about Malt extract before & I may give it a go in between the Bourbon experimentation .

Thanks

Pop

[Wai‘ona]

There are many in the homebrewing community that share your feelings about short-cuts and authenticity with regards to brewing beer. The all-grain brewers are the purists.

However, the quality of malt extract being made these days is such that it is often nearly impossible to tell the difference between an extract beer and an all-grain beer. Using extract shortens your brew day and clean-up by about half.

Once I discovered using first runnings for my high gravity beers I gave up using malt extract completely. The aroma of mashing grains is one of the great joys in life... (I do use malt extract to make yeast starters. Storing guile takes up too much space in my yeast bank frig.)

Good on you for wanting to keep it authentic! I'm looking forward to reading how you progress.