uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

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snoozer
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by snoozer »

mtnwalker2 said way back
...I use one deviance, and this was sorta by accident. I used 10# cane sugar and one and a half gallons cracked corn (chicken feed) and the price was also! into a 25 L fermentater. But then I added some Prestige whiskey yeast with AG and 6 teaspoons of 5.2 PH buffer. Well it ate the sugar in the 3 or so days, but, and heres the change, it has now been exactly 6 days, 144 hours, and not any decrease in fermentation- air lock is going like crazy, and the bright yellow corn is all turning pale and gray, so I am sure I am getting almost total conversion of the potential sugars from the corn. What a plus and worth the wait.
This got me to thinking... if full conversion was achieved on the corn then perhaps just adding all corn without sugar (or minimal) would be possible, WITHOUT adding any malt for enzymes AND without heating the corn at all (to gelatinize or mash). The AG in the Prestige whiskey yeast is supposed to work at fermentation temps and is denatured at mashing temps. So could I not effectively do an all grain "cold mash", Whaddya think?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

can be done,,,,,,,,,,but it takes its time at fermenting. you can try it but do not be in a hurry
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by blind drunk »

This got me to thinking... if full conversion was achieved on the corn then perhaps just adding all corn without sugar (or minimal) would be possible, WITHOUT adding any malt for enzymes AND without heating the corn at all (to gelatinize or mash). The AG in the Prestige whiskey yeast is supposed to work at fermentation temps and is denatured at mashing temps. So could I not effectively do an all grain "cold mash", Whaddya think?
I just read that yeast has enzymes in them for starch conversion. I was surprised to read that, others may not be. When you think about it it makes sense because there isn't always a masher in nature and yeast works perfectly well without a masher, just a little slower like Dnder said. Maybe whiskey yeast is a modified product to increase starch degradation and conversion. Just a thought, I don't actually know. bd.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

all you have to do is look at UJSM ,see how long the corn last in that, adding enzymes will speed it up because the yeast does not have to do it all ,but----------
I have seen recipes the used raw corn /yeast (some sugar to start) then all was put into the still,,stir until hot then caped/sealed ,,run off,,
then drained and the corn was added back to fermenter with some more malt and yeast. basically they were cooking in the still.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by snoozer »

Yeah BD, I'm surprised to hear that as well. Its encouraging to hear it can be done tho, I figured in theory it could. Even though everyone says the UJSM produces an excellent product it's good to have an alternative up yer sleeve. I haven't done the UJSM yet but I've done a few all grain mashes. It is a bit of a hassle doing the mash, so if this "cold method" works (albeit slowly) I'd be willing to use it. If this does work then we could adjust the proportions of corn and sugar to suit our taste and fermentation speed. I might try a 50/50 corn/sugar mix, I'll see how it goes. How long do ya reckon it'd take for all corn to ferment out Dnderhead, 3 or 4 weeks?
Having said that, I guess I'll have to try the UJSM first and if its as good as people say maybe I won't bother with all corn. Cheers! :mrgreen:
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

probably. stop and thank about it ,,,, the enzymes in the powder is derived from mold,,, what does the mold want of them? they brake down the grain
into sugar so the mold can "eat" it,, people rob the mold for the enzymes. the point I'm getting at is does nature cook the grain?? does it keep the grain
at 150f (66c) ?? people "mash" or cook to hurry up the proses.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by violentblue »

snoozer wrote: Having said that, I guess I'll have to try the UJSM first and if its as good as people say maybe I won't bother with all corn. Cheers! :mrgreen:
IMHO UJSM is a nice and simple way to get started, the product is good, but all grain is better tasting, but only you can decide if the extra work required is worth the result.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BritishBartender »

Hi Guys, Going to do my first spirit run on around 6g of stripped UJSM. The stripping was done with my 1 1/2" Boka wide open with no packing.
Should I add a couple of scrubbers for the spirit run?
Also, if you have any advise or pointers that would help me out so I don't screw it up.
Does it matter how fast I run it and just make conservative cuts??

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by dropping_planets »

thats the same amount of low wines i save up....i use a detuned CM column..no cooling in the column with about 6" of loose scrubber....

once i start dripping i set the flame at almost nothing.... a soft mellow clicking in the boiler...on my still this is slow.....by the time i'm into hearts, i got a very thin, steady stream...

i would like to know how long your run takes you... and what you end with.... good luck.... 8)
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by BritishBartender »

Still haven't got around to do a spirit run and now it's time for another stripping run. I will post again when I have done the spirit run!!

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by blind drunk »

dropping_planets wrote -

once i start dripping i set the flame at almost nothing.... a soft mellow clicking in the boiler...on my still this is slow.....by the time i'm into hearts, i got a very thin, steady stream...
Is this on the spirit run? Does this thin steady flow happen on its own without power adjustments? Seems like I'm always fiddling so I'm curious if it's and automatic transition from drips to flowing. Thanks, bd.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by dropping_planets »

this is on the spirit run.... once i get my flame where i want it....like a match head on its way out...i leave it ... if my tank isn't almost empty, it stays that size...if my tank is low, the flame slowly shrinks and i have to adjust occasionally....

i think as the ratio of alcohol to water in the boiler changes, so does the viscosity of the distillate, causing the change in the stream....it moves from a bouncy drip to a thin steady stream on its own...
if things don't happen the way i want or think they should, i can adjust accordingly by tinkering with the flame.... i seem to do this much, much less than i used to 6 months ago...tough habit to break... i do like playing with fire.... :twisted:
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Stevewhiskey »

Anyone know about any positive or negative effects of using turbo yeast in the UJSM recipe?
I mixed up a batch in my fermenter using Prestige 48 hour turbo yeast about two days ago and it was bubbling like crazy, now it has slowed down and almost stopped and im pretty sure its done fermenting, which is pretty crazy because last time i made an UJSM and used whiskey yeast with AG it was fermenting for about 2 weeks.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

the distillers yeast has enzymes witch work on the starch in the corn,so longer ferment=higher yield.
the turbo has lots of nutrients -short ,fast ferments
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by itsroger »

by Stevewhiskey » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:02 am

Anyone know about any positive or negative effects of using turbo yeast in the UJSM recipe?
I mixed up a batch in my fermenter using Prestige 48 hour turbo yeast about two days ago and it was bubbling like crazy, now it has slowed down and almost stopped and im pretty sure its done fermenting, which is pretty crazy because last time i made an UJSM and used whiskey yeast with AG it was fermenting for about 2 weeks.


I used some turbo on UJSM and the first run was good, but the second was terrible tasting, the turbo was the only thing I could ever figure that made it taste so bad, used bakers yeast next and it was great! Got some Super Start for my next time.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Husker »

Turbo's are a BAD thing for UJSM (actually, not too good to use for anything you plan on drinking).

Turbos are 'bred' and tuned to the nutrients packed in that satchet. They are not designed for the long multiple-generation run, like you get when doing a sour mash. They are bred for pretty much a 1 time shot, and have the nutrients which this strain of yeast wants packed in the satchet. Once that has been consumed, they will not flourish as well.

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by ChrisHanks »

So last night I began a "stripping" run on my second round of UJSM. I fired up the boiler under the high capacity column in pot still mode at 7:30 with 13 gallons of wash in it. At 9:30 I began to drip. At 10 I was running a bit over 2 liters an hour and ran like this until 2:45 when I unplugged the power at 97 degrees because I had to get some sleep.

My question is this, I thought stripping runs were supposed to only take a few hours...do many of you make smaller runs? I can't imagine collecting much faster than 2L per hour as I don't want my boil to get too violent. Am I just being paranoid? I turned off one of my 2 1500w elements when I hit 80 degrees, should I have left it on?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Husker »

Shoulda left both on, I think.

Run times for a strip are based 100% on power input (minus power loss and reflux, if using a column, even if not 'returning' reflux).

The losses to heat loss can be quite a bit, unless you insulate well. The 'losses' you get in a column (IF you do not run any coolant through the column) is based upon poor insulation. Once it is well insulated, there should be little loss, and you can pretty much use the pot still calculator from the parent site to determine just when the run should be over.

So for 13 gallons of 14% wash, here is what I see. NOTE assumes pot still, with NO power loss, and no reflux due to power loss (This was from the Win32 port of the pot still calc I did):

Code: Select all

*****  Pot Still Run *****

Starting:  50.0L of 14.0% 'mash' at 26°C
Running:   Wattage 3000, Reflux @ 10.0%

*** Main run ***   Heatup 71 min

          Ending Temperature                Ave       Total         Total
  Time     Boil       Vapor     Collected   Purity    Collected     Purity
  ------  --------  ---------   ---------   ------    ---------     ------
  10 min   91.98°C   81.37°C     1365 mL     61.8%      1365 mL     61.82%
  20 min   92.66°C   81.68°C     1316 mL     58.9%      2680 mL     60.41%
  30 min   93.33°C   82.01°C     1266 mL     55.8%      3947 mL     58.93%
  40 min   93.98°C   82.38°C     1218 mL     52.5%      5164 mL     57.42%
  50 min   94.62°C   82.78°C     1171 mL     49.0%      6335 mL     55.86%
  60 min   95.22°C   83.22°C     1125 mL     45.4%      7460 mL     54.28%
  70 min   95.79°C   83.72°C     1083 mL     41.7%      8543 mL     52.69%
  80 min   96.33°C   84.29°C     1043 mL     37.9%      9586 mL     51.09%
  90 min   96.82°C   84.94°C     1006 mL     34.2%     10591 mL     49.49%
 100 min   97.26°C   85.68°C      972 mL     30.6%     11563 mL     47.90%
 110 min   97.66°C   86.53°C      941 mL     27.0%     12504 mL     46.33%
 120 min   98.02°C   87.46°C      914 mL     23.7%     13418 mL     44.79%
 130 min   98.33°C   88.47°C      889 mL     20.5%     14307 mL     43.28%


*** Tails run ***

           Ending Temperature                Ave       Total         Total
   Time     Boil       Vapor     Collected   Purity    Collected     Purity
   ------  --------  ---------   ---------   ------    ---------     ------
  20 min   98.84°C   90.09°C     1718 mL     16.3%      1718 mL     16.33%
  40 min   99.22°C   92.28°C     1654 mL     11.6%      3372 mL     14.02%
  60 min   99.49°C   94.32°C     1608 mL      8.0%      4980 mL     12.06%
  80 min   99.67°C   96.04°C     1576 mL      5.3%      6556 mL     10.43%
 100 min   99.80°C   97.38°C     1554 mL      3.4%      8110 mL     9.07%

Starting:    50.00L @ 14.0%  (7000.0 mL pure Ethanol)
Main Run:    14.31L @ 43.3%  (6191.9 mL pure Ethanol)
Tails Run:    8.11L @  9.1%  (735.9 mL pure Ethanol)
 
In boiler:   27.58L @ 0.26%  (72.3 mL pure Ethanol)
This shows an expected 71minute heat up (I have found from experience, this is too low, but about 20%). Then a 2 hour run, and 1.8 hours if you want to run that deep to get almost ALL of the ethanol.

So from start to 'normal' finish, was about 3 hours at 3000W. You ran at 3kW heatup, + 1.5Kw run, so you getting 2 hours to drip is about right (it will take that 71 minutes, plus about 20% more, plus even more than that, since you have to drive the heat UP that column), then you ran for 5 hours, which is 200% of what I computed (plus a little more, since the column will slow things down with more heat loss).

To me, it sounds like what you would EXPECT on a 1500W strip run with a column.

People that are getting '2-hour' from start to finish, are usually running propane. It is pretty easy to crank up the heat, and get 1000's of watts of power (even 10's of 1000's of Watts) if you want it. Even turned down to a 'reasonable' rate, you still will see several 1000 watts of power. But in your case, if you can run both 1500W elements, without scorching, or 'puking', then that is what you should target to strip with. Also, INSULATE well. Heat loss is simply that, it slows down the run's power and makes it slower.

H.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by ChrisHanks »

Husker, thank you. That was an extremely helpful reply.

One more question...if I'm running 3000w to strip and not recirculating my water (just running city water from the hose bib) then what does my flow rate look like? How hot is the water coming out? At 1500w I had a little more than a urine stream and about the same temperature maybe a touch warmer. I would assume I need a lot more water running through that condensor if I double my power?
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Husker »

Hard to say how much water you will 'need'. Just make sure you knock down all the vapor, and you will be fine. Since you do not list the 'type' of condensing system, I have nothing to judge characteristics on.

Be sure you have your condenser water lines hooked up the 'right' way. The right way, is the cold should enter the furthest away from the boiler, and hot water removal should be closest to boiler. This is the 'opposite' direction of the vapor. Thus, on a lebig, you put the cold water at the end of the condenser, and remove it at the top of the lyne arm, close to the column/boiler. For a coil in the top of a column, it is a little harder, especially if it is a double coil. In that case, there is little you can do to get correctly cooling direction. A single coil you can. Making sure the cold water comes in at the 'top' of the coil, and exits at the bottom of the coil (of course it will squirt up the center tube in most coils).

This proper direction will increase the power removal of the condenser a lot (one of the condenser experts might chime in, but I think it is about 2x better).

But if you are saying that the water temp of the water exiting the condenser is about the same temp (running at 1.5kw), then running at 3kw may not need much increase in water flow at all. You can use a mirror, or some other method to make sure no vapor is escaping (DO NOT test for vapor leakage with a flame).

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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by ChrisHanks »

Thank you, thank you.

When I was collecting I noticed in my 2L beaker there was some condensation appearing on the sides of the beaker. Does this mean that I wasn't knocking down all the vapor and thus needed more water? I could sure smell it! I have a temp/chem resistant hose from brewhaus that runs from the end of my condensor into my beaker.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Husker »

You will thank yourself, if you replace that 'chem resistant' tube with some form of copper tubing.

Also, if you are running to a beaker, it is also likely you are getting some evaporation from within that, especially if the output is not cold. Usually for a stripping run, this evaporation loss is not wanted. For a 'spirit' run (well for aging), it is beneficial, and called the Angels Share. It helps to smooth things out.

However, if that take off tube does not get hot, then it is not likely you are not leaking vapor. The tube would have to be pretty hot, else the vapor would revert back into liquid.

H.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by scmoose »

thread. I plan on making the UJSM to run in my 2x36" Boko but have some questions of those that are running this mix in this still. First off, I haven’t run the still yet, in fact it isn’t even completely built. However I feel that I have a pretty good concept of how the still is "designed to work". With this recipe, reflux is bad, which goes against the design of the still. I would like to get my "sippin whisky" in one run, but I’m not sure about how fast to throttle the output valve on the still. From reading, my plan is to run the still with minimal, if any packing in the column, and then insulate the column in order to reduce refluxing. My question is do I run the output valve wide open, or do I pinch it back to limit the amount coming out. My first thought is run it wide open as to not dump any distillate back into the column, i.e. refluxing. Also, my intuition tells me I would need to run heat low, as to not rush things. Again, my goal is to make one run. Am I on the right track with my plan, or am I completely missing the train here.
Also what kind of ABV readings are you folks running this recipe in this still getting in one run. From what I can tell, I need to collect from 80-70ABV or a little lower, and then continue to run down to 30 or so ABV. Collect anything above 80ABV and below 70 or so ABV, and then add this back into the next run. Not solely depending on the numbers, but taste as well.

Disclaimer,
I understand that everyone’s unit, and recipe will act differently, I’m just looking to get a feeling of what to expect, as I am obviously new to the hobby. Thanks.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Ayay »

Schmoose, I run UJSM through the full reflux to 95% continuous output. After the 5th generation there is enough flavor in the 5% to make it a good sippin whiskey. Before that it is a good sippin vodka.

I have the pot stillin apparatus and tried it a few times with poor results. Reflux came first for me and thus it must be perfected before moving on to other methods.
cornflakes...stripped and refluxed
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by ChrisHanks »

Thanks again Husker!
I tossed the plastic hose and ran two more stripping runs (although it was BWSW) each with 10 gallons of wash and running with both elements wide open I stripped them in 3 hours flat each and went all the way to 98C.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by jsanders »

As I was trying to take a coupla shortcuts to save time, I didn't strain the mash and I also had to leave it sit for a pretty long time, 3 maybe 4 weeks, I was thinking this method was a lot more trouble than it's worth. Crap clogging my siphon, making the whole house smell like puke, I had pretty much decided this was for the more serious of the crowd :(

BUT! :!:

Even though I got a pretty small return (much due to the fact I left a lot of the mash in the bucket because, well you know) I can tell this is going to make a great drink. I was even so discouraged I ran it reflux. It was the first batch so why not. Well I could still tell it was a better product than I get from sugar and turbo. Now don't get me wrong, I'm still going to make sugar turbo till I die :twisted: every once in a while. It's perfect for reflux and carbon.

Thank you thank you thank you uncle Jesse
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by ct1870 »

Can i add bakers yeast to a wash that is 91F. I know it is a little warm but i think it will handle it. any advice. SG is 1.08. I'll have some pic if i can get the time to down load and get posted.
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by rad14701 »

ct1870 wrote:Can i add bakers yeast to a wash that is 91F. I know it is a little warm but i think it will handle it. any advice. SG is 1.08. I'll have some pic if i can get the time to down load and get posted.
91F is fine for pitching most yeast... Just don't go beyond 100F - 105F or you are venturing into a dangerous range... I generally pitch between 85F and 95F...
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by chrisl »

Hello: I am going to start this recipe today. My q's is on the heat up, when I start a run. I have read that 170-180, do you crank up the heat, from the start, and leave it at, full on heat, until you get to 205 then stop distilling? or do you crank it up and when you start getting product, then turn down the heat and try to keep it at 180. Thank You Chris
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Re: uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

Post by Dnderhead »

if your using a pot still,, this is what I do.
start at high heat,, when column starts getting hot about 1/2-3/4 the way up turn down to a "simmer"
the temps.. will gradually rise . "mite" start out at 170f (77c) and go to 190f (88c) (you cant control the temp. you will be "chasing' your tail)
you cant go by temps.. with a pot still but some use as a "guide"
\
If your doing a "stripping" run just run as hard as you can and still knock down the vapors.
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