Home Distillation Handbook still design question

fermentus decrepitus · Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:38 am

Hello all,
My original plan was to build a pot still using the pony keg with a copper column and condenser. Unfortunately when I went into the shop this morning I found I was out of both solder and gas... So I have a surplus of stainless tubing and fittings (along with a full tank of argon), thought I would start in on the reflux still shown in the Home Distillation Handbook. Basically what is pictured on page 24, or, a 2 x 24" column, with the condenser measuring approx 8 x .5" with a 1" jacket, coming off the column on an elbow. Does anyone have experience with this design? From what I have read here it seems this could function similar to a pot still - in a non reflux mode, though I may have to make a fitting that allows a lyne arm to be fitted / extended. Any input on this would be helpful - yes, I realize this is the wrong forumn. But again, can anyone share their experience with this? Thanks in advance.

fermentus decrepitus · Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:06 am

Oh, yeah. Forgot to metion on the still design the cooling circulating through the base of the column after the condenser. (Would this design be referred to as a Cooling Management /CM set up?)

Post by **Hawke** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:51 am

Yes, that would be a CM still.
At only 24 inches, it will not be much more than an enhanced potstill. With the short condenser and being stainless, I think it will have to be run extremely slow to produce anything higher ABV than a standard potstill.

fermentus decrepitus · Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:33 pm

Hawke wrote:Yes, that would be a CM still.
At only 24 inches, it will not be much more than an enhanced potstill. With the short condenser and being stainless, I think it will have to be run extremely slow to produce anything higher ABV than a standard potstill.

The text calls to pack it with copper pads, for what that is worth. Yeah, I get what you mean by enhanced pot still. Funny, a pot still was what I was going for when I went into the shop yesterday...
I imagine if I use it as an enhanced pot still it would give faster / better (maybe) stripping runs. I may run with it for now - I can always weld another fitting on it and mak an extension or refulx head. I'll put some pictures up shortly.

Post by **HookLine** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:32 pm

24" of packing is not to be sneezed at. It will give you much more flexibility with that column. Varying the amount of packing, column insulation, reflux, power, etc, will give quite a range, from a basic pot still to a good hybrid. You will not get 95%, but it should give you a decent vodka.

However, if it is the CM design with the cooling lines running through the [lower section of the] column, then ditch it, or modify it. It is an old and poor design, there are much better ones now days. Look for liquid management (LM) and vapour management (VM) designs on the forum.

EDIT in the square brackets.

fermentus decrepitus · Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:10 pm

HookLine wrote:However, if it is the CM design with the cooling lines running through the column, then ditch it, or modify it. It is an old and poor design, there are much better ones now days. Look for liquid management (LM) and vapour management (VM) designs on the forum.

Untitled.pdf: This would be the one...; (17.6 KiB) Downloaded 272 times

Post by **HookLine** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:16 pm

Yup, bad and outdated design. Move those cooling lines to the top of the column, just before the take off, and you will get a functioning CM still.

fermentus decrepitus · Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:02 am

HookLine wrote:Yup, bad and outdated design. Move those cooling lines to the top of the column, just before the take off, and you will get a functioning CM still.

As this is my first build please forgive the simple questions here...

Do you think it would be beneficial to add any additional cooling lines through the top? Thanks!

Post by **rad14701** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:08 am

fermentus decrepitus wrote:Do you think it would be beneficial to add any additional cooling lines through the top? Thanks!

If you're planning on making more changes than tube location you might as well choose a better design from the get-go... Home scale still theory and design has come a long way in the past few years...

airhill · Post by **airhill** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:16 pm

fermentus decrepitus wrote:
HookLine wrote:Yup, bad and outdated design. Move those cooling lines to the top of the column, just before the take off, and you will get a functioning CM still.
As this is my first build please forgive the simple questions here...

Do you think it would be beneficial to add any additional cooling lines through the top? Thanks!

Yes and offset them, ie don't put them all through in the same direction.

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:19 pm

Remove the cooling lines from the bottom of the column, and put them at the top, at right angles to each other, making a cross.

But Rad is right. You can do much better than a CM design. Look at LM or VM designs.

airhill · Post by **airhill** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:08 pm

Lotsa CM phobia on the forum

Control the temp of the vapour passing the thermal gate and you have an ideal still.

fermentus decrepitus · Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:04 pm

Alright, as my original intent was to go with a pot still - whiskey, rum, etc. and as Hawke said, from this setup I get an enhanced pot still, I may just run with it for right now - learn something from it, and then go back and make some changes, or perhaps just lean it in the corner when / if I make another! The polished stainless looks nice

I have miles of ss tubing and all the sanitary fittings so it can be easily modified to do something else if needed. Anyway, I will try and get some pics posted tomoorw.
Thanks again for the input.

Post by **HookLine** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:31 pm

airhill wrote:Lotsa CM phobia on the forum

No phobia. Just that, as a hobby stiller, given a choice between CM, LM, and VM for making neutral, I would rank VM first, then LM, and CM last.

No phobia, but maybe just a little bias.

fermentus decrepitus · Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:23 pm

HookLine wrote:
airhill wrote:Lotsa CM phobia on the forum
No phobia. Just that, as a hobby stiller, given a choice between CM, LM, and VM for making neutral, I would rank VM first, then LM, and CM last.

No phobia, but maybe just a little bias.

Good thing I am looking to make whiskey and rum to start

airhill · Post by **airhill** » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:46 pm

Nice qualification there Hook, considering no one has worked out how VM's really work

A quote from Riku (hope he dosn't mind), think it goes from worst to best, well thats the way I read it

"LM:
- Quite easy to construct
- non constant reflux ratio
- can be used for flavored spirits
- Quality gets worse towards the end of the run unless reflux ratio is increased
- One valve to control

VM:
- More work to build
- automated shutdown at the end
- reflux ratio increases towards the end
- not good for flavored spirits
- can’t collect lower than ~47% output
- one valve to control

CM:
- More work to build
- automated shutdown at the end (if so adjusted)
- shutdown between heads, main run, tails possible
- reflux ratio increases towards the end (if cooling kept constant)
- can be used for flavored drinks
- Controlled by adjusting cooling flow in reflux condenser
- Alternative method, constant reflux cooling and control power "

Post by **kiwistiller** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:06 am

fermentus decrepitus wrote: Good thing I am looking to make whiskey and rum to start

I enjoyed using my CM for rums. Whisky, not so much.

airhill wrote:Nice qualification there Hook, considering no one has worked out how VM's really work

Sure, everyone knows. VM stands for Voodoo Machine, right?

In all seriousness, My VM made better neutrals the first time I used it than my CM ever could.
VM + Pot combo = HappyKiwi

CletusDwight · Post by **CletusDwight** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:04 am

My experience (for what it's worth)
Made a reflux still then tried to run a flavoured wash to get whiskey/rum.
I just got vodka. Might as well have just fermented plain sugar.
Even detuning it didn't really work - just vodka with a hint of whiskey.
I had to rip out all the reflux and turn it back into a potstill to get a decent drink out of it.

Post by **HookLine** » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:05 am

Yup. VM column + pot still = happy stiller.

If you want flavoured spirits, just use a basic pot still. If you want neutral, then LM or VM is the way to go.

And I know exactly how a VM works. You fill the boiler up, attach the column, turn it on. When it boils, turn it down. Wait a while, open the valve a bit, then later a bit more, then later a bit more, and lovely neutral comes out. How much more do you need to know?

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