Fwd: Counterfeit Spirits (YOU WILL BE CAUGHT)

[CletusDwight]

There's a lot of pressure on the drinks industry from law-enforcement and medical lobbies.
Drink fuelled violence, vandalism and chronic illness are serious social problems. It's hard to see how the law-makers can deal with the problem except to just make it difficult/expensive for people to get alcohol.
In Scotland (even!) there's talk of setting minimum prices for drinks.

Far from legalising stills, I can see a time when drinkers get ostracised - same as smokers do now.

Made to go and stand in the street to drink maybe.

[UnclePaul]

I've enjoyed reading the thoughts that have been posted here on this thread. And in ways everyone is correct. To a certain extent, keeping quite and un-noticed is the best thing, until your no good for nothing friend who had to have a quart for is party gets caught doing something stupid. Then you're only as quite as the people who know what your doing.
Now days everyone you see on the television is out to become a star. All the politicians and even the local sheriffs are trying to look good for their next big job and hopefully their own reality show.
I think all you can do is your best to stay in the dark and hope that for some unforeseen reason, the bright light of some revenuer doesn't come shining on you in the middle of the night.

[blanikdog]

... Made to go and stand in the street to drink maybe.

Not even allowed to do that here now.

blanik

[lawnman 2]

Too right, Hook. If I recall correctly when home brewing beer became legal the monopoly breweries suddenly managed to expand the beers available to the general public. Now it's almost a case of far too many choices. It's almost as difficult as deciding what dunny paper to buy.

All I want is a cold beer thanks. :

blanik

lol, thats a good one here here.

[lawnman 2]

at the end of the day for you and i its a hobby,it sure didnt start out they way for me .... it was a step up from brewing beer which became boring
and got sick of the home brew yeasty taste.
and the other factor was the $$$ saving side of things but as time progressed ive tured it into a bit of a hobby,...........
a hobby i dont really tell too many people about as it is sooo called 'illegal' here in oz.
but any-way i dont sell it in any shape or form to any body, but im sure happy to give the odd bottle way to family or friends,
on the the proviso its a good tasteing drop

[stuartashers]

well Ill shove in my two cents worth watch this I hope it works

http://search.abc.net.au/search/click.c ... ion=abcall" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

there is video also

as for using some one elses label that's a no no I clean my bottles so there's no label and no copy right infringement for any thing
I recon I got sold watered down beer at a function I went to so I made up for it on wine. beer and wine were free (included in cover charge) they lost with me lol.


Louisiana Due
some times one needs to appeal to the minor parties perhaps local council to start. see a councilor word him up mention licences, in stead of tax a donation of 10 or 20% of product in Lew to go straight to the big boys you might get some where
start small your town or state and it should spread as it becomes more popular. un less your president is an ol shiner from way back it'll be a hard road but a worth wile one

[Samohon]

It's hard to see how the law-makers can deal with the problem except to just make it difficult/expensive for people to get alcohol.
In Scotland (even!) there's talk of setting minimum prices for drinks.
Far from legalising stills, I can see a time when drinkers get ostracised - same as smokers do now.
Made to go and stand in the street to drink maybe.

CD +1.

In Scotland at the moment most of the booze selling establishments will not sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 21 (legal age is 18). Alco-pops gave the industry a name that could very well ostricise drinkers, but 90% of offenders are in the 15-20 YO bracket. This has had an effect on the more responsible citizen to the extent that drinking has been banned completely in puplic places.

Example:
My wife, daughter, some friends and I go to the highlands whenever we can. BBQ, music, dancing, a little shine, you get the picture. We all take turns at driving. On one occation the police attended our very piecefull gathering on a report that someone had seen my wife and her friend taking a glass of wine from a commercially bought product. My wife gave the bottle to the officer who then poured the contents onto the ground. I just wanted to de-fuse the situation because I had 3 x 500ml bottles of hooch in the car. Brought the party to a sudden stop. These are all law abiding citizens, being treated like common alco-pop teeny boppers. Changed the venue the next time we went.


They will eventually place a minimum price for booze in Scotland, just another tax, just another way the gov can make money.


Dobbers, can't live with em, can't shoot em...


My $0.02c worth

S...

[ScottishBoy]

On a related ( sort of) note.
The state I live in just recently had a frivolous lawsuit against a local company from a MAJOR energy drink player, who also dabbles in the liquor and beer industry. You could say that they were a monster sized company...
Anyway, they brought up injunctions against them and nearly shut them down. My reply to them was to write them and say that I would be willing to propose a bill mandating that all energy drinks be placed under lawful control due to higher than normal amounts of caffiene in them. Precedent was made for malt liquor. This would give my state a nice boost and cut down on the incidents of kids being jacked up in public. Im not sure if it was that letter or not, but they quickly dropped the suit. Im still considering the idea. Nobody that young needs that amount of stimulant.

My point? Rigid control of the entire chain is what the manufacturers strive for. With a little careful digging, you can find an unbroken, but unspoken, chain of food and beverage companies that ween their people off one product and then onto the next. Seemingly unrelated companies using familiar and similar branding techniques and campaigns. This tight control is jealously garded and hammered by any who make their living off it.
Once you are into the the distilled section of this chain, the control is nothing short of rampant, especially from the government side due to their amazing taxes on the product. No matter how much the medical and legal sides press, this will not change unless another prohibition comes. Their is just TOO much money being generated by it. But that comes at a price: Any who infringe on it will get slapped pretty hard. Its no secret that no one here uses their own name and is very vague about where they come from.
Case in point: We had a local bar that served college kids and they prefered to use 80 proof Vodka. They got a shipment in one time and it was 100, but the distrib gave it to them for the same price. They then opened it and broke it down to 80 and replaced in 80 proof bottles.
They lost their whole bar...and their houses. But they didnt go to jail.
It was about the money and control all along.

When Money is involved, the stakes go quite high. Alcohol is a tremndous money maker.
Be careful.

SB

EDIT: Sorry, I got interrupted about 12 times trying to write this. if it makes sense, great. If not. Dont worry.

[rad14701]

Good luck ScottishBoy... You're fighting against a capitalist corporate machine that is intentionally targeting unwitting teens as their new cash cow... It happens in a majority of economic markets... Clothing, snacks, cereals, restaurants, soft drinks, electronic gadgets... The list goes on and on... While some of us may see it for what it really is, scrupulous corporate greed, big business merely sees it is an additional income stream... They know how much money kids get handed by parents to keep them appeased, spoiled little bastards that they are, and go after every penny they can get from them... The same goes for those of early working age who don't know how to properly manage money or behave responsibly...

<<< Quietly steps off the soap box and shuffles off into the darkness. >>>

[ty-tek]

There was a programme on BBC1 today called 'Food Fighters' that investigates food hygene and food supply infringements.
It had a section on a 'bootleg vodka' that was appearing in a small towns off licences.

It turned out to be fake Smirnoff. It was a very good fake which was only let down by the liquid inside the near perfect bottle which had floaty bits in it.

It was tested in a lab with 'litmus' paper and if real should have given a 'yellow' result and 'green' if fake - It gave a 'black' result which was said to be off the scale.
What test was this? Was it looking for methanol or do Smirnoff have a 'marker' that can be tested for?

If you are outside the UK I doubt you will be able to view it but here it is for all the Brits here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_4/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[DamianRyan]

ScottishBoy's story is interesting, I live in South Africa and was under the impression that a still run for ones own use was illegal,hoever I had a bloke in our kiosk the other day and he owns a still purchsed from a lwayer no less who manufactures the said stills and apparently he was challenged by the authorities he took them to court and won.Now I don't know how true this is but I found it very interesting.The still I have is of course fully licensed but at one hell of a cost.Not only do they smack us for 72 bucks per liter @ 100% but the licence fee has gone from 67.50 to 4000 per year.It's all about money.

[redneckJake]

In my old and cynical way, I believe it is all about money. The big players control the politicos, because the politicos need money to be reelected. Of course, there are also the squeaky wheel types like the anti smoking groups, who in Canada, got the flavored mini cigars, like colts and the like removed from all shelves, because they promoted smoking in youth. The corporations let this pass, because it took the pressure off the really big markets for them. Maybe we could get licenses, like was mentioned earlier. People who make biodiesel and E85 have licenses to do this, but it is understood that too few people will try so the profits of the oil companies will not be diminished. Like is said....don't sell, and don't tell.

RNJ

[drunkmore]

someone said awhile back that if the govment opted to licence our stills there would be lots of us runnin of to get a licence to get legal, this is an interesting thought but an eronouse one.
The Australian govment put into place, over a five year time span, a ruse to "licence" all fire arms in the country. within months of finishing this colosal feat of deception they mmade certain types of firearms "ELEGAL" to own without huge cost to the owners, But they also gave an amnesty if you wonted to sell your now elegal firearm to the govment. Some people gut good money for dangerous shit rusted up firearms. Others got crap money for family ayrelooms handed fromgreat grandad to a son who fired his first shots with it.
Im rambling a bit, sorry for that, the point im trying to make is, if the govment say, heres a licence for a seemingly low cost (less than a grand a year) then they are likely on a fishing mission. once they know you have it they can take it off you.
Dont be fooled
Keep quiet

[TonyL]

In pubs (UK) if I suspect they are doctoring the beer & spirits & I am paying good money for what should be quality drinks, it’s a phone call to the Trading Standards Office (UK) they just love tax dodgers, they are straight in there at the juggler, they welcome a phone call.

Regards Travis

Snitches get....well you know the rest.

[jafcheekykiwi]

In pubs (UK) if I suspect they are doctoring the beer & spirits & I am paying good money for what should be quality drinks, it’s a phone call to the Trading Standards Office (UK) they just love tax dodgers, they are straight in there at the juggler, they welcome a phone call.

Regards Travis

Snitches get....well you know the rest.

I agree with travis, if I'm paying for it I want what I pay for, wouldn't go as far as making a phone call though. Living in NZ I've found that most people consider getting into brewing is an expensive endeavor and the product you get is sub-standard(we know better though). I believe this image is intentional. SITTM

[travis]

Why not make a phone call, would you want to have you & your friends ripped off, while the landlord is “”laughing”” at you all? Pissing in his beer & spirits.

[marc83]

Living in NZ I've found that most people consider getting into brewing is an expensive endeavor and the product you get is sub-standard(we know better though)

Im with you on that one

[jafcheekykiwi]

Why not make a phone call, would you want to have you & your friends ripped off, while the landlord is “”laughing”” at you all? Pissing in his beer & spirits.

Wouldn't know who to call mostly haha. Don't think a pub would last long around here if people thought they were getting ripped off.

[athiril]

Counterfeiting is wrong because it is deceit and fraudulent.

As for selling currently illegally distilled spirits that have no been deceitfully misrepesented as another product, ie:
'The state of Virginia estimates that it loses $20 million a year in tax revenue to "moonshining", a home-made and illegally smuggled whiskey.
According to the Economist, the whiskey is "cheaply made in 800-gallon stills, most of it smuggled to poor inner cities and sold at half the price of its legal counterparts, avoiding state and federal taxes which run at roughly $25 per gall (3.8 litres) of whiskey."'

I think it is the law that is wrong, and that not only distilling for personal use, but private (direct) transactions should be made legal (as opposed to organised indirect distribution which is a real business). People want to go on about safety, this and that, well here and most other places, it only comes under tax law. I don't like such a Government-restricted life, so much basically, banned applied-knowledge and applied-science, more than just on the topic of alcohol.

[travis]

Not only talking about Spirits in this message, however I do have questions on counterfeiting & deceit.

“Deceit”, could be an expensive branded company selling a product at inflated prices, i.e. a company that has a product made cheap, say, $1 each & sells it in the designer shop for $100.

“Counterfeiting” a company sees the same product on sale at $100 goes to a factory down the road, gets a copy made for $1 & sells it on the market for $4-99.

The counterfeiter has to either save or spend is/her money so tax is paid.

The wealthy designer company can employ accountants to “avoid” their tax obligations & probably pay very little? & may get more money back from the government in corporate scams, sorry, I should have said schemes.

This is only an observation & not any particular thought from myself.

[athiril]

Not only talking about Spirits in this message, however I do have questions on counterfeiting & deceit.

“Deceit”, could be an expensive branded company selling a product at inflated prices, i.e. a company that has a product made cheap, say, $1 each & sells it in the designer shop for $100.

“Counterfeiting” a company sees the same product on sale at $100 goes to a factory down the road, gets a copy made for $1 & sells it on the market for $4-99.

The counterfeiter has to either save or spend is/her money so tax is paid.

The wealthy designer company can employ accountants to “avoid” their tax obligations & probably pay very little? & may get more money back from the government in corporate scams, sorry, I should have said schemes.

This is only an observation & not any particular thought from myself.

Sure, big business isn't often ethical.

But you're passing off something different off as not only X product to the consumer who dont get X product that they paid for (whether good or bad etc), you're selling on someone elses name, and unlike copyright infringement, you are actually a cause of lost sales (rather than simply being a legal or illegal competitor where the consumer makes a choice to choose the competition) when a conumer is familiar and comfortable with X product. You're also affecting the reputation of the X product name.. then there is liability and stuff...

[Xristo]

I have enjoyed reading through these generally well informed thoughtful comments and concerns. The failure of governments to be able to shut down wikileaks.org should be an indicator that this site is pretty safe from that. Nevertheless, it's good sense not to promote counterfeiting or any kind of business that is tax evading. If a distiller is capable of making a "top shelf" facsimile, their skill might be be better served making their own brand legally and getting a better price. Selling real 'quality' is one end of the business scale and the other end is cheap volume sales. I think most distillers here are aiming at going for quality that can't be bought over the counter. I grow a lot of my own fruit and veg and apart from being biased I know I can't get as good as a tomato or asparagus spears even from the farmers markets. Drinking a Bass in a pub in England or a Guinness in Ireland is not the same as a transported or brewed locally under licence Bass or Guinness somewhere else, just ask a Czech what they think of Budweiser. Now maybe liquor travels better, but whether we have the right to make our own to the best of our ability should be our right, I should have the right to reject the commercial poison and choose my own. And during the next natural disaster, where you going to get your liquor, I can't see the government rolling in with trucks of liquor, not for us anyway.

[whiskymonster]

late to the party, but hey ho.

im an ex british pub landlord, and i can vouch for certain, that if you decide to screw with your brands, you will get caught.

the electric informant isnt always used on a pub visit, but the brewery will catch you if no one else.
according to my last inspector, smirnoff at least contains a unique chemical, the name of which he wouldnt divulge, that can be tested in about 20 seconds with a simple litmus paper type test. and since most british pubs nowadays are tied to the brewery (contracted to get all their stock from them) then it's a simple matter of checking profits against order to tell who is playing silly buggers. if your books arent perfect, then the gooberment is called to thoroughly check everything, and have been known to take a shot of each major spirit with them to analyse. one way or another you're getting screwed.

my general point is, it's hard enough trying to get away with buying branded spirits out of tie, nevermind cheaper legal ones, or even home stilled shine.

we all got to hustle at times, but this one just isnt worth the hassle one way or 'tother

that said, my still is shiny enough to be called ornamental, and the fuzz got enough to be worrying about without considering how much i drink and where im gettin it from.

friend o mine is a copper, and his general attitude is: it's not crack, so why should i care? it isnt worth the paperwork.

in fact, he tells me that new coppers are trained that when they catch a chav with a few spliffs worth of weed (which is a class a drug now) then if he isnt wanted for something else, they should drop it in a drain and let him go. again. not worth the paperwork.

if it aint worth the money, they aint gonna catch you.

as a wise soul on here said, dont sell, dont sell.

j

[maheel]

lol

if your selling sly grog over the counter you shaw as hell would not be putting down the profits in any darn book to show anyone
pay or make the grog in cash, get the cash back out of the till.....

pretty simple tax evasion

[frozenthunderbolt]

Are there alot of commercial stillers in NZ, and if so, i wonder what there opinion is on the whole deal. also, how common is it in a place where it is legal hobby still? I often wonder how many around me do it. I mean, my neighbors dont know what im up to in my garage, maybe there doing the same thing........ bastards......how could they?

BUgger all comercial stillers in NZ that i know of, 42Below vodka started in Nz but that's the only one i know of off hand.

My town 4-5K people has a brewers and stillers guild (club) with an active membership and the barn at our local country show each year. they give out free tastes to those who can show ID, free advice and try to sign new members up. there would be between 4-8 in the barn but they have a membership of aroun 20-30 (brewers) of whom i know of at least 5 distillers (there may be more).

Based on this say 1 in 1000 (at least) then there would be 4000 home stillers MINIMUM in NZ, and given the recent ecconomics i would suspect more. You could reasonably expect 24,000 home brewers (of some description) additional to this i suspect.

[whiskymonster]

i gotta quit this country and become a kiwi.

its just that simple!

[freespirited]

Can someone enlighten me as to why its legal (with permit) to make fuel but it is not legal in most cases to make alcohol? What, other than the obvious, is the difference?

[rad14701]

Can someone enlighten me as to why its legal (with permit) to make fuel but it is not legal in most cases to make alcohol? What, other than the obvious, is the difference?

Human consumption makes it illegal, even with a ethanol fuel permit/license... Has to do with agricultural fuel production versus potable spirits production... It's a whole different set of taxes...

[Husker]

Can someone enlighten me as to why its legal (with permit) to make fuel but it is not legal in most cases to make alcohol? What, other than the obvious, is the difference?

Human consumption makes it illegal, even with a ethanol fuel permit/license... Has to do with agricultural fuel production versus potable spirits production... It's a whole different set of taxes...

Nice response, but a better, more accurate, and shorter one is:

the gooberment is fukin greedy / power hungry.

[freespirited]

I agree Husker! Just wondering if I was missing something? Fuel tax compared to alcohol tax vs the amount consumed/used in a year I would guess to be similiar.