Home distilled spirit made me seriously ill :(

[Monger]

Hi everyone,

I'm relatively new to home distilling, having only done about 4 or 5 batches so far. I bought a good quality super reflux still, I buy only the proper ingredients from the store and I'm pretty meticulous in both adhering to the instructions (particularly those concerning sterilization procedures) and keeping meticulous notes on everything I do.

The first few batches I made turned out great, as far as I could tell the quality of the spirit was fine. The last time, however, the spirit made me violently ill. By which I mean I spent 8 hours or so the next day feeling mostly ok but every half hour or so I would suddenly get sick and throw up. At the time I thought it was food poisoning, but a week later I tried 2 shots of the stuff and threw up once again the next morning.

What on earth could possibly have caused this? I've pretty much ruled out bad sanitation procedures or sanitizing powder contaminating equipment, like I said I'm pretty good on that front. According to my notes the only thing that went different was I heated the wash up to 50 degrees C and then realized I'd forgotten to clear it, so I allowed it to cool a bit, cleared and ran it through the still normally. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe I ran the still for too long? I turned it off when it hit 90 degrees though, which is exactly what the instructions say to do.

Any insights as to what might have happened would be greatly appreciated. More importantly, how do I prevent this happening again? Is there a way to test spirit before you drink it? There's no way I'll do another batch if there's the possibility of going through that again

[LWTCS]

Hey Monger,

Did you make any cuts during your collection operation or just collect everything together?

[Barney Fife]

That almost sounds like a allergic reaction to something in the product. Think back, and think hard, at what all is in there and what all may have been in contact. Had you used something different to clean or sanitize your fermenter, still, or even the jars or bottles? Lids? everything. Something as benign as touching a latex glove can make a friend of mine throw up like a pregnant lady! My wife gets instantly sick if she drinks homemade wine with too many sulphites added and not rinsed out well at the bottling(common mistake by amateurs..). All sorts of things can trigger this sort of reaction, but only you can pinpoint it.

[Monger]

Hey Monger,

Did you make any cuts during your collection operation or just collect everything together?

I discarded the first 50ml or so of foreshots and collected the rest together. Batch size was 20L, I used a turbo production pack which I think is about 7kg dextrose and 1kg carbon. Yield was about 4.5L @ 90% (which is what the instructions indicated I'd get), I cut that to 50%, ran it through a carbon z-filter twice and then cut to 40% for storage.

[Monger]

That almost sounds like a allergic reaction to something in the product.

I thought about that, but I didn't have any problems at all with earlier batches and there were no symptoms other than the stomach upset which seemed to me to be consistent with food poisoning.

Think back, and think hard, at what all is in there and what all may have been in contact.

I've gone over it all a million times in my head, the only thing that was different was that this time my store sold me a different brand of production pack (sugar) which had a grey color instead of white. Also I detected a very faint smell in the spirit, which I've smelled in previous batches, that I can only describe as "slightly nutty". I ran it through the carbon filter twice and it seemed to clear it up.

[rad14701]

Hey, Monger, welcome to the forums...

I think you need to step back and give us a blow by blow explanation of what you've done from the very beginning... Don't drink another drop of that hooch until we figure this one out... It sounds like you didn't make proper cuts, but I don't think that's the whole issue here... Infection is not the problem...

We need to know the exact recipe you used, with exact proportions of each ingredient... Then we need to know whether you used any fining or clearing agents... Then we need to know exactly how you distilled the wash... Then we need to know what, if anything, you did to the spirits after they were collected... And, finally, we need to know how you diluted and drank the final product...

We'll help you along... Just take caution by not letting anyone drink this product until it can be deemed safe...

[LWTCS]

Smeared the daylights out some cuts by pushing my thumper too hard. Recon thats what THM was taking about a while back.

And you made no cuts. Ohyvey, bet that was god awful.

Your physical reaction sounds strikingly similar to the reaction I may have been rumored to have had (know what I mean Kiwi?).

But please do offer a more detailed version of your process to help narrow the possibilties.

[kiwistiller]

Your physical reaction sounds strikingly similar to the reaction I may have been rumored to have had (know what I mean Kiwi?).

First things first: how much did you drink? the first time? the throw up after trying it again thing just means your body is really, really unhappy with you, you've conditioned yourself into that response...

Ok, sounds like you a still spirits super reflux (or equivalent) ? IMHO 50mls of foreshots does not constitute good cuts. you have plenty of heads in there, and tails as well if you went up to 90. This is one of the reasons that I don't like carbon filtering... If you NEED to put carbon on it, you've done it wrong. If I was in your position (and I was, actually) I'd throw away the brew shop instructions, start making good clean washes without turbos, and learn to make some good cuts.

Kiwi

PS have you ever been really ill of storebought spirits?

[Rod]

I am using a still spirits super reflux still ( made the mistake early in the piece )

Assuming a sugar wash to get neutral spirit

only 7kg of sugar and non turbo yeast , in 25 litres of water, fermented @ 20°C , and cleared with 2 part clearing agent

The only way you can get rid of the foreshots in 50 ml

is to have a heater control and let the still reflux at about 75°C for about 15 minutes

at which time there will be no product coming off then take the temperature up very

slowly to about 78°C and then start to collect ,

at about 40ml you will get a fairly defined point at which the spirit will be quite clean

before 40 ml it will taste and smell shouse , then collect a further 10 ml and dump

then at about 80°C stop the still , you will lose some yield , but at $3 a litre who cares

with a bit of experience you will not need carbon

usually air for about a week

the heater control slows the process down at the important cuts

making a really good batch of gin , using a smaller botanical basket with various secret herbs and spices

Ps forgot to mention I clean my column , which has cooper mesh inside after each 25 litre run

[Monger]

Thanks everyone, this is all really helpful. Here's the exact procedure I followed:

- All equipment used was sanitized beforehand with sodium metabisulphite.

- The pack I bought was a Still Spirits 8kg Classic Turbo pack, ie second collumn in the table on this page:

http://www.stillspirits.com/wawcs016161 ... ystem.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

- I fermented a 21L wash with the Turbo yeast in a climate-controlled environment at 21°C (+/- 1°C) for just over a week, SG readings indicated fementation completed normally.

- The still is a 25L Still Spirits Super Reflux. I poured the wash in, heated to 50°C and remembered I'd forgotton to clear. I let the wash cool, poured it back into the fermenter and added the clear finings that came with the pack. I then distilled again normally.

- Distillation started at about 79°C. I said that I threw out 50ml of head but with bigger packs like this one I usually throw out a bit more to be safe.

- Distillation continued normally, by the time the temperature had reached 90°C I'd collected 4.5L (slightly less than the 4.8L listed on the chart) and I stopped. I measured the final ethanol concentration as being higher than 80% but still in the ballpark.

- I dilluted the spirit with water to 50% and then ran it through a carbon z-filter twice, again using the fresh carbon supplied with the pack.

- I dilluted the spirit down to 40% and and poured it into the bucket I used from the previous batches (it's sealed and food-grade plastic, I bought it with the still). I didn't clean this bucket beforehand so there's no chance I left any sodium metabisulphite in it. I don't have my notes with me but the yield was comparable to previous batches, i.e. around 10 liters of 80 proof.

As far as I can tell, I followed all procedures to the letter apart from forgetting to clear which I went back and did. The instructions don't say anything about cutting the spirit other than discarding the head and dilluting with water to 50% for filtering and 40% for drinking; I'll have to read up more about that on this forum.

have you ever been really ill of storebought spirits?

Never. I'm very good at knowing my limit and while I did have a bit I didn't exceed it that night. Haven't been sick from it since I was kid, and even then it was never to the degree it was this time. What you said about the conditioned response was very interesting, it would certainly explain why I reacted so strongly the second time.

at about 80°C stop the still, you will lose some yield , but at $3 a litre who cares

Interesting. That's far below the 90°C that the instructions gave.

[kiwistiller]

so how much did you drink?

I started off with the essencia still of similar design. I've written up a guide to running them, it's a sticky in column distillation and design. I disagree pretty strongly with the brew shop instructions. In fact, I disagree pretty strongly with the brew shop on everything, but that's another story.

- The pack I bought was a Still Spirits 8kg Classic Turbo pack,

that's a hell of a lot of sugar. might want to do some reading around on the evils of turbos (they're not actually evil, just expensive and make an inferior, skanky product).

making a really good batch of gin , using a smaller botanical basket with various secret herbs and spices

gosh, share and share alike I say :

[northcountry]

I'm allergic to sulfites, so wondering if you rinsed your equipment after cleaning with sulfites? Never saw a grey sugar, might check where you bought it to see if any other reports of problems.

[kiwistiller]

- Distillation continued normally, by the time the temperature had reached 90°C I'd collected 4.5L (slightly less than the 4.8L listed on the chart) and I stopped. I measured the final ethanol concentration as being higher than 80% but still in the ballpark.

hang on so the distillate was coming over at 90*C but was higher than 80%?
90*C corresponds to ~65%, which is well into the tails on a reflux run, in my books anyway.

[Monger]

so how much did you drink?

Forgot to answer this one...I'd say I had maybe 6 or 7 30ml shots (~200ml) over 6 hours, mixing with OJ. Not exactly something I'd want to get into the habit of but certainly within the realm of what I can tolerate over that period from either store bought or homebrew. The symptoms the next day really weren't like a hangover, I felt completely normal apart from the wave of nasea that kept arriving every half hour.

[Monger]

hang on so the distillate was coming over at 90*C but was higher than 80%?
90*C corresponds to ~65%, which is well into the tails on a reflux run, in my books anyway.

Ok, that's interesting. I actually did jot down a reading towards the end of distillation (like I said, I keep notes on everything) and it was indeed around the 63% mark, which I figured was just a normal part of the process due to the increasing temp and changing ratio in the still. I mixed that in with the rest of the batch, it was the total overall batch concentration that was higher that 80%.

Can the excess fusal oils cause that strong a reaction? I was following the instructions which said to go by temp, should I be cutting off at a certain percentage instead?

[kiwistiller]

well, using turbos, pushing yeast like that, and using carbon filters, there isn't really a safer way to make cuts than in fixed amounts, or using temp / strength as a guide. however, this is not a very good way to do it. much better to ferment a clean wash that doesn't need carbon, and use your senses to make cuts.

...and it was indeed around the 63% mark

ah ok misread your meaning there, so 80% was the total distillate strength? you should be able to get plenty higher than that I would have thought. what is your packing?

[SaltUbar]

Hi,
A couple of thoughts;

Interested to hear you are using 7kg sugar in 25 Lt of water. I am using 8Kg sugar in 55 Lt water and it get 1.058 specific gravity. So I agree with an earlier post where you are producing a wash with twice the sugar concentration that I am. (refer post about Wino’s sugar wash in the tried and true section Sg should be less than 1.080)

With this set-up and a turbo “StillSpirits Turbo Yeast Classic Manufactured by Brewcraft” I got 8.7% ABV in 2 days.

Did you boil the water you used to dilute your finished distillate with. Symptoms you describe sound to me like a type of food poisoning. This is not generally due to the infection of the produce but the poisons that the infection leaves behind. The high AVB will kill most bacteria and I would have thought that none of the poisons would come through the distillation process. So if it is this scenario then look to post distillation for the problem. I agree with other posts something in the added water or containers and equipment used after distillation.

I have heard of filters that have been reused after a few days contaminating the filtrate with bacteria. I don’t filter as yet but am considering filtering the wash after a second clearing siphon before I do the stripping run. Did you recharge the filter from new stock on the second filtration.

Lastly; the problem could be chemical. There are all sorts of nasty things that could get through a distillation process. I was in Napier over Christmas and was chatting to a local brew shop owner who showed me a bag of specialist brewing sugar. It was grey as well. He explained that it contains charcoal. You may have this. Personally I do not use any specialty brew ingredients and I have only done one run with a turbo for comparison with bakers yeast.

Regards Ubar

[goinbroke2]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just wrote a massive post and the F%^&*ING THING DISAPPEARED!!!!!

To sum it all up (DAMN IT)

Yes I had the same experience, maybe I'll write about it when I'm not so mad.
Reason,
1) fusel alcohol because you didn't do cuts and you had highly stressed yeast from trying to hit a high % number that made huge amounts of fusel alcohol.

2) you mentioned heating to 50 then cooling, adding clearing agent then distilling. Did you add the clearant and then let it sit for a while and then rack it off the lee's left in the bottom? Or just add the agent then distill? If the latter, that could be your unwanted additive that caused the puking.

My case was a knife in the gut feeling when I drank lots of it and the next day was either a hangover or no hangover just...whoa,BARF and then carry on for a while, whoa, barf.

Throw away the instructions, pick a recipe on here and follow it, do your proper cuts, let air. Throw away the turbo's, get rid of the 18%abv ferment mentality, make something you can drink and enjoy. In other words, if you need carbon, your not doing it right. All the info is on this site and more importantly the vast volume of experience on this site pales any info you'll get from a brewshop who's trying to sell you something.

Whole freaking post lost...DAMN IT!!!

[goinbroke2]

Forgot to mention, mine was freeze distilled, started with 20L ended with a bit less than 2L. (back in 1993)

This meant I had all the cogeners/fusel alcohol/etc same as you not doing cuts and keeping heads/tails in with the heart.

[goinbroke2]

Grumble, grumble, grumble.....

Ok, here's the story.
I used to make beer and wine and everything else I could ferment. Well I did up some rhubarb and doubled the sugar and used either wine or turbo yeast to try and get the 20% they claimed. After it was done to a very sweet 17% I set it outside in a 20L pail in -38 weather. Next day I skimmed off the ice and so on until there was around 2L left. It was strong enough that it would flicker and burn on a spoon.

When I drank it, it smelled and tasted like old gym socks but MAN it was strong. I could get hammered on a mayonaise jar full! Then I noticed I got a pain like a knife in my sternum and only dry crackers would stop it. I also noticed that sometimes I'd get hung over, other times I’d feel ok and then…whoa, puke! Feel ok for a while then…whoa puke! By the time it was gone I was glad to see it gone, I must of built up an intolerance to it or something because one drink would give me the knife in the gut feeling/pain.
I also noticed that some of the other stuff I fermented had an “oil slick” on top. So I’d soak it up with a clean rag then drink it.

So, years go by and I’m reading up on all this and hindsight being 20-20 I figured out the problem. By trying to get a really high ABV I was stressing the yeast which made them produce massive amounts of fusel alcohol and cogeners and stuff. The second issue was the freeze distilling which removed the water but left everything else (acetone/various alcohols/etc) Basically the same as not pulling foreshots or removing heads and tails.
Smarter now, I go out of my way to ensure that my cuts are on the tight/safe side and I only shoot for 10-14%. I also NEVER use turbo’s. If you have to use carbon, then your not doing it right.

Like I said above, throw away the instructions and follow the advise/experience on here. No you don’t need/want turbo’s and yes you want to only use the heart. Throw the heads/tails in a feins jar to run in the next batch. This really is simple to do and yes you’ll get it. Oh yeah, the batch that made you sick? Throw it in a feigns jar and run it in the next batch too when you do proper cuts.

(forget being stingy, it’s cheap so make your cuts on the safe side and enjoy the quality drink you produce. I’d rather have 15L of good whisky then 18L of crap that gives you hangovers)!

[bfpierce]

not that I'm an expert, I guarantee the latter, but so far my experience agrees %100 on the fermentation angle.

I've been using my still to turn screwed up batches of fermented product into more drinkable fair.

from the still, the best product so far was the most palatable of my fermented screw ups, I actually got a very healthy compliment from a friend who tried it. the gist I think folks are getting at, is the more nasties you create in your fermentation, the more nasties you need to cut out of the distillate and not making any cuts is going to be harsh on the mind, soul and associated parts.

[blanikdog]

I suppose that it has to be asked so, had you had any other - how shall I put it? - 'intoxicants' while drinking? I experienced a similar bout some time ago while at a fishing trip with some mates. They were drinking beer and I was knocking down chilli vodka like it was going out of style. Several hours later while trying to sleep I felt a trifle (read very) ill and I regurgitated most of what I had drunk. The others were fine.

Best thing is that I didn't have a hangover and haven't experienced it since. The moral is that mixing can be nasty.

blanik