New member intro and questions

[braddie77]

Hi there, this is myfirst post, so I'll introduce myself and ask a few questions at the same time.

I have always had an interest in stilling, but have never made it so until now. I have a plumbing background to working with copper is very simple for me, and having a trade background, I enjoy a challenge as nothing seems hard to do now. I also love the science behind stilling and I am excited to give it all a go.

I have basically all the required materials to start construcion and I am using the internal reflux still plans on the homedistiller.org homepage link.

I have a 50L S/S keg, a 50mm column 1m in length (sorry, I have converted all measurement to mm and m), I will be using a 40mm condensor 710mm long with a 25mm internal tube of the same length (Well, that is if everything seems to be in order anyway).

Along the way I have had questions, some of which have been answered (through furher reading), some i've worked out for myself and the others, well I'm really glad I found this forum!

Ok, the first thing I haven't been able to work out (the still plans are a little bit vague) Is the cooling pipes run through the column... Why is this? Is it a sort of heat exchange? Or do they not actually frun through the column, and I have somehow come to this conclusion on my own? Do I have to put them there? Could I just reinforce (if that is why they are there) the condenser another way?

Next thing is, is there a specific height that the condenser elbow should tee off the column? I understand that there is a specific heat that ethanol is produced, and the heat is controlled and yada yada yada, but is there a percentile of the column that is best to put the elbow if you follow my drift? Specific instruction would be really helpful please.

Ok, also, I have purchased a pump capable of 1000L/h, is there an optimum flow rate for the condenser? Is the faster the better?

How cool is the water for the condenser meant to be? (is it attributed to flow at all?) can I stick some ice blocks/frozen bottle of water in to compensate for the rise in temperature?

And finally, if the unit is as I understand and upside down U shape, how does only ethanol (and other by products) come out at the end and not water/steam in large portions, how does the water get separated in the condenser and retun back to the column? I hope someone knows what I'm talking about because I can't explain what exactly i'm on about. But I know what I mean.

[rad14701]

Welcome to the forums, braddie77...

As for your initial choice of reflux stills all I can say is "Argh...!!!"... Please do yourself and us a favor and research the New Distiller Reading Lounge... Pay specific attention to the Basic Overview of Common Reflux Designs topic, but don't stop there... You can do much better... Most, if not all, of your questions will be answered with a bit more reading...

Don't be in a rush... Do your research and ask questions before deciding on a particular design due to aesthetics...

Good luck...

[mrhooch]

Welcome Braddie!

The version of the still with the pipe running through the column isn't the best design to work on. The purpose of those pipes is to provide reflux, and there is not enough area in those pipes to produce any acceptable amount of reflux.

It all depends on what percentage of alcohol you are trying to get at the end. Over 90% takes some finely tuned equipment.

For reflux read the theory section. If you can wrap your head around "If I boil a 10% alcohol solution it will produce a vapour of roughly 50% alcohol. If I distill 50% alcohol I will get vapour with 80% alcohol in it.", then you are almost there.

So with a long enough column and some suitable packing material, the heat from the vapour coming from boiler will "distill" the reflux and after a time, which depends on the wet capacity of your packed column and how much liquid your still will produce, at the top of the column you will have a really pure ethanol vapour, which you can condense and enjoy.

There are many ways of condensing the vapour at the top to send it back down the column. Since you at some point want to collect the fruits of your labours, it breaks down to the three basic designs, CM (Cooling Management) where a coil or some cold surface below the height of the takeoff point condenses the vapour and you adjust the amount of cooling you provide for the desired ABV output. LM (Liquid Management) which condenses all the output, and there is a point at the top of your column where this liquid is captured and you have a valve to remove this liquid, the rate you remove it determines your ABV. Finally there is VM where you condense it all above the top of your column, and you have a valve which allows the vapour to escape and go out to your produce condensor, how much you let "escape" guess what determines your final ABV in your product.

Based on comments made by far more knowledgable members than myself, the magic number of where you put your takeoff above your column packing is based on the size of your column, and it is a 1:1 ratio.

As for condensors, remember that as you condense out the vapour you actually create a vacuum, as the 500ml + vapour condenses down to 1 ml of liquid. How well the condensor works is based on the vapour speed in the condensor, too fast and it just doesn't have the time to condense out.

You don't need a lot of cooling water flow to get the job done, I run at about 3 liters per minute of cooling.

Hooch

Hint use a union to connect your condensor to the stillhead.

Hooch.

[braddie77]

Thanks very much for the replies guys. I appreciate your input. I have unions to connect my column as i want to be able to take it apart for cleaning and make it easier to remove my packing.

Unfortunately i have all the materials already for that particular design reflux still, so i will take a look at some other designs, but doubt the materials i have will transfer over.

As for those tubes that "reflux" in the column. What does that mean? Can i increase this factor? The main problem i had with them is they will be in the way of my packing material.

Im at work at the moment. But can anyone suggest a better/similar design to the one i am making?

[kiwistiller]

hmm better and similar don't really go together with that design I'm afraid. I'm fairly sure you'd be able to convert the materials to something else without too much further expense, but you'd need to tell us exactly what you have... but anyway your posts give the impression that you are a little ahead on the building for where you're at in understanding the operation of a reflux still, so I'd suggest just stopping building for a week or so and catch up on your reading. You'll build a better still for it, and have better product.

[braddie77]

Awesome advice. Thankyou. I have looked at other designs such as the valved reflux and the (cant remember the name properly) nixon still. But youre right, its one of those things, everyone thinks they know what theyre on about. But the more u learn yourself the less importan their input is (just pages ive read before homedistiller.org). I'll keep reading and sort it out. I just think a valved still would be alot harder to work out. I like the idea of a still that is fool proof and has consistency time after time. I understand a valved still will do this, and i will look into it. But im sure u know where im coming from

[kiwistiller]

The parent site is a bit outdated, make sure you have a solid read of the reading lounge and the novice area in general as well. the reality that you may not have grasped yet is that the design you're building is also valved, it's just a valve that's a real pain in the ass to adjust, i.e. a garden or household tap, or another valve you put on the water lines. you'll notice that we refer to designs as something- mangagment (vapour management, cooling management in your case). This is because reflux is something you manage. personally I think if you're building a reflux still, you shouldn't be aiming any less than 95.6%. It's achievable with easy, tried and true designs that are all detailed here for you.

My final thought would be that if you want a foolproof consistant still, make a VM. the design you're building is as far from foolproof and consistant as you can really get.
Good luck and happy reading,
Kiwi

[braddie77]

Thanks again kiwi for your advice. Look, im not phased on what i build really. Just unfortunate that i spent $200 on materials on a design that was apparently really good lol. I want 95% for surr and i would like to make it in large batches, i have a 50 litre boiler, but unfortunately bought a 50mm column already that is 1 metre long. Other than that, what would be best for vodka mainly? but i would like to try other spirits. Although cant i just flavour my 95%?

[kiwistiller]

Yeah, you can flavour you neutral and get a product, but much like adding powdered sugar and flavour to water not producing orange juice, you can't ever get it as good as 'the real thing'. I have a 50mm 1m section in my vm. it's nice, enables me to break down the unit for transport / storage and put a centering device in the middle of the column. VM or LM would be best for neutral, both have pluses and drawbacks, read the reading lounge and you'll learn them

I would say that if you want to make all different sorts of spirits, in the end you'll want a pot head as well as a column, even if it's just for stripping. you 'can' use a still in a manner that it isn't designed for, but as they say, use the right tool for the job and you'll get a better result.

Do some reading!
Kiwi

[mrhooch]

Braddie:

If you haven't drilled those cross holes in your beautiful 1m piece of pipe, then don't. (If it's the design I'm thinking of, called a lennon still) Pretty much everything you've scrounged up so far can be used in a slightly different way for much better results. I like to tweak my designs once I run them a few times, mostly to come up with the cheapest most efficient still. Your keg with the connection to your column won't change. Your column packed with scrubbies won't change. What will change is the top of your still where you provide the reflux and draw off the product.

I know it's very hard once you've you've committed to a design to change it, but in this case if your goal is to get a good 90+% neutral, you can only get that by a good amount of reflux, and you get that by figuring out how much power you are going to apply to the boiler. If you look at the pictures of stills you'll see why. Most of the reflux stills here use a 10+ foot length of 1/4+ inch tubing coiled tightly to provide reflux. It is no way the same as the 100mm of 1/2 pipe that your design is showing, and these other designs are meant for running in the 1000 to 2000 watts of power input, which is about the maximun you want to push your column too anyways.

Lay out your parts and take a picture and we can suggest something.

Hooch.

[braddie77]

ok here they are...




i have 50, 40, 32, 25, 20, 15, 12.7 and 10mm pipe in 1m lengths but only one of each length also.

[braddie77]

I am now considering a VM still, is the idea to have as cold as possible water flow? I would also use a liebig condensor on the take-off, but am unsure as to what purpose this second condenser serves.

Can anyone suggest a good design to follow? Some of the best stills i've seen on here have no plans, and I want to work on a scientific level (if possible) to achieve maximum use of my still. I also haven't found a run-down on the specifics of certain elements used in other people's stills. If someone could help me I'd appreciate it:

The off-set plates used in one column to catch foreshots, I believe... I'd love a bit more detail about that one

Thermometer placement, I understand that it needs to be at the level of take-off and above my packing, but can it be poitioned in the take off pipe if required?

[mrhooch]

Braddie:

In a Vapour Management still, so you are taking off vapour, which you still need to condense, hence the second liebig. You also need a valve of some kind to take off the product vapour.

Takeoff plates are found in Liquid Management stills aka the Boka. The purpose is to capture the refluxing liquid for you to draw from, then distribute the overflow down the center of column.

Look in Rad's signature at his still. Excellent idea to implement liquid management.

The thermometer should be at the takeoff point in VM stills, but don't put it in the reflux stream because it will measure the temprature of the reflux. You'll find you don't really need a thermometer, but it is a fork or spoon arguement. Because you are refluxing, you first let it run out full bore and find out the rate your still will work at with no reflux. This is not something you can try with just water, it needs to be a wash with alcohol for this to work.

At this point you slow down how much you are collecting until it is a fraction of what was coming out before at a minimum 1/4 to 1/10th . How slow you collect determines how high the ABV. Example full tilt my still at the beginning of a wash will produce about 70 mls / minute. I crank up the reflux until I am collecting somewhere between 5 - 10 mls/minute. At 5 mls, I' can push the 94% barrier, at 10+mls I'm somewhere above 90.

Are the pictures of the completed still something you want to copy?

Hooch.

[kiwistiller]

I am now considering a VM still, is the idea to have as cold as possible water flow?

mmm not really, the water flow just needs to be sufficient to knock down the vapour reaching each condenser.

The off-set plates used in one column to catch foreshots, I believe... I'd love a bit more detail about that one

some people put in LM slant plates like in the boka to bleed of foreshots. This prevents them getting into your product condenser. they can also be used for heads reservoirs but then you're getting into automation really and you'll have to buy riku's book from the amphora society to learn about it. the info isn't really publicly available anywhere.

Thermometer placement, I understand tat it needs to be at the level of take-off and above my packing, but can it be positioned in the take off pipe if required?

Chuck it just inside the takeoff branch and you'll be all good.

You'll find you don't really need a thermometer, but it is a fork or spoon arguement.

Yeah, you won't need a thermometer unless you like knowing when the column is stabilised, when to make cuts (before it get's in your product) or anything like that

I guess braddie will just have to look at the number of columns he can find using thermometers vs the one guy who thinks they are unnecessary...

[braddie77]

Ok cool. So the plates i"m referring to are for LM type stills and are not used in VM?

Does it serve any purpose to apply them to my design?

As i understand the VM type still has a condenser coil above the column, tee"s off and has a liebig condenser on the take-off pipe. All i need to understand is the valves and get a design to roughly follow if my understanding is correct...

[kiwistiller]

The LM plates are sort of an extra for experts things I'd venture. For your first build I think you'd be better off with a bog standard design (i.e. without them), you can always add them and other bells and whistles later. That big tee you've got will be a great takeoff branch. then a reduction, to a valve, ball or gate (gate is probably better but I have a ball valve because I'm a tightass), and you're well on your way. looking at your two 40mm reducers and trying to think how to use them, if you were keen you could anneal and hammer them out for centering collars in the column, or maybe one of them would be good on the bottom of your coil to center the reflux there. they're probably a bit big for a standard liebig I'd say.

[kiwistiller]

actually with some more thought, 50mm tee into 50-40 reducer, then valve, your 40mm 90 bend, some of your 40mm pipe, one of your 40 to 25 reducers, then a liebig using your 20 and 25mm pipe (you'll need a couple of bits for that though). you might be able to use some of your smaller bits to make a parrot, themo ports and so forth.

And then we've used almost all your bits!

JustLikeLegoKiwi

[braddie77]

Lol awesome. Not sure what a parrot is just yet. But i"ll get there.

So if i use my 40mm and 25mm internal for my liebig, that'd be too big?

With regard to my first coil, should i make it about 200mm high and fit it into 50mm or larger pipe to put on top of the tee? And it it all sealed at the top where the in and out pipes are? I ask because a think i'll need a 50mm compression fitting to remove the coil and add/remove packing at the tee

[kiwistiller]

So if i use my 40mm and 25mm internal for my liebig, that'd be too big?

others are probably more qualified to answer that than me, but it sounds a bit big to be efficent. There are ways you could make it better I guess, like putting mesh in it and so forth, but that's a very big jacket space. you could also sprial something around inside the jacket to help break up that big space.

With regard to my first coil, should i make it about 200mm high and fit it into 50mm or larger pipe to put on top of the tee? And it it all sealed at the top where the in and out pipes are? I ask because a think i'll need a 50mm compression fitting to remove the coil and add/remove packing at the tee

sealing up the top of an LM or VM is a big no no. Creates a potential bomb.

[mrhooch]

[quote="kiwistillerYeah, you won't need a thermometer unless you like knowing when the column is stabilised, when to make cuts (before it get's in your product) or anything like that

I guess braddie will just have to look at the number of columns he can find using thermometers vs the one guy who thinks they are unnecessary...[/quote]

Sure, and when I see all the posts from those folks that are trying to run by thermometer and get nowhere because their thermometers are inaccurate or improperly placed. I didn't say to not put a thermometer in his column, I just mentioned that there are two camps, one who thinks that you need to run by thermometer, and those who know their equipment, and run by the product.

I have a thermometer in my boiler, it tells me when I've just about boiled off all the alcohol. I don't need to guess when to switch to tails, I switch when the boiler temp is 202 - 204. I run the washes based on 4kg of sugar, when it ferments out properly, I know how much ethanol there is to extract, and heads hearts and tails, I extract over 90% of what should be available, and my hearts are 92% or better.

So when is the column stabilized? When you've run enough total reflux to replace the wetted volume a few times.

Birdwatcher runs his batches the same way I do, perhaps he does run it with a thermometer, but I do know he runs a large reflux ratio, over a long period of time.

The point is that I've realized that distilling is a repeatable process. It pretty much works the exact same way time after time, it doesn't really vary, but then all I'm running is great neutrals.

Hooch

[Dnderhead]

40mm =1.5" that is big and so is 25mm=1" it is just overkill.
most use 12mm and 19mm? (1/2" inside 3/4")

[kiwistiller]

I would venture that if you can't get 95+ you should probably stop advising people how to run columns?

[mrhooch]

So I take that as a challenge to run my next batch at 95% and prove to you I'm not a total BSer?

Given it is a exponentially smaller improvement the closer to azeotrope you get, it won't be as easy as most people say it is.

Hooch

[kiwistiller]

Sure, do it. But the fact remains that you've breezed in here and started contradicting the accumulated knowledge and accepted best practice of the community with very little to back it up. If you do it to an experienced stiller, thats fine, we know enough to sift the gold from the slag. If you do it to a novice, that's a bit of a different story.

So, how about this: if you want to show and tell your own methods of running a still to all and sundry, great, make a seperate thread detailing how your methods differ from what everyone else does, and show some data on how it is better and so on and so forth. By slipping landmines like

You'll find you don't really need a thermometer

into of a thread of advice to a newbie, you just seem like a troll.

[olddog]

+1 Kiwi

Also mr Hooch, why would you need a thermometer on your boiler if you boil off the heads before adding your column, it dosn't make sense.
You are misleading and contraversial

Troll


OD

[braddie77]

Ok guys... Plz just help me out lol. I think i get what mr hooch is saying. If u know ur still u dont need the temp necessarily.

I would like 2 thermometers at some point in mine actually. One halfway down the packing so i know what temp fluxuations are coming at the heads and tails as a trial (will be removable). I read thus in another post and sounds like a good idea.

Anyway, agreed. Mr hooch if ur going to do as u say, plz start a new thread and quit arguing. As i understand we all believe we've got the best shit. And it's a matter of pride. i look forward to hearing more about ur still and ur methods.

Now, i have 12mm and 20mm pipe, so thats not a big deal for my liebig. Could someone please point me towards design instructions with measurements and some detail to base my own VM design on?

[braddie77]

and wtf is a troll?

[braddie77]

all good... got it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

[mrhooch]

Troll.....

Never my intention... I never made the comment, "A still needs a thermometer like a fish needs a bicycle..." I did say it was a fork or spoon, both can be right. If you want to put lots of thermometers in your still Braddie, go for it. I would suggest one experiment though, put all your thermometers in a boiling pot of water on the stove not touching the bottom of the pot, and see what they read. Given that you are looking at a 0.1C or so variation, which thermometer would you trust?

This is a clandestine operation in most parts of the world, and most of us are working solo and if you've never done it before, you don't know really what to expect, I know I didn't, but I learned from my mistakes. I'm not trying to post bad information, I'm trying to post the mistakes I've made and countless others sweating over their copper in their workshops working alone will likely make.

Back to what you want to build. A column still can be though of as a series of black boxes connected together.

Starting at the bottom, your boiler, you need enough volume and head space so if your wash foams up when boiling it doesn't go up your column. Yes I've had a boiler barf where the wash blows up the column and out my condensor. You need a constant source of heat in your boiler, and one that is adjustable as you will likely need to tweak how much heat you are putting into your still to properly suit your column and condensors. It is a very simple equation (which changes based on how much alcohol is in your wash) which gives you heat in = product vapour out. Without to much niggling about decimals, at 1500 watts of power, and a 10% wash at the start it will churn out roughly 35 liters of vapour a minute which you have to process.

Next is your column. You need length to properly establish a thermal gradient, Rad suggests ratios in the 1:24 to 1:36 which is width to height ratio. You also need packing which has a large surface area, and you need to avoid channelling which is where the vapour can sneak by your packing. You also need to insulate your column to help preserve that temprature gradient. Copper scrubbies work best, it's also called structured copper packing and I've also seen it sold in garden centers to protect plants from slugs in a roll. How fast the vapour travels up the column is based on how much heat you are applying to the boiler. To fast a vapour speed, and your packing doesn't get a chance to do it's job. At the top of your column you will be adding reflux. It is very important that your reflux is not running down the sides of your column, in fact the more evenly you distribute the reflux on the top of your packing the better. It is also important that your reflux is not too cold as your column will enter into an area of total reflux, as the colder reflux will allow the packing to condense the vapour too.

At the top you have your black box of a reflux condensor. It needs to be able to absorb ALL the heat that your boiler is capable of producing, or more importantly knock down all the vapour which is coming off the top of your column. How you accomplish that can be up for some creative thinking, most people use a coil of 1/4" tubing, you need to get at least 10 feet or more of tubing in that coil to provide adequate cooling. Most of the designs are based on coil on coil, mostly to not give the vapour a clear path out. A lot of stills mount their coils through an end cap, it allows it to be centered in the column and not touch the sides. If you bend your coil right, the reflux should drip off the center of the bottom of the coil. You need to drill a small vent hole 1/4 or bigger in the top of your end cap and you also don't need to solder that end cap on.

A technique I've read here to balance your reflux is to put a penny on top of your vent hole with no reflux cooling. When your still gets up to temp, the penny will dance by the escaping vapour. Turn on the reflux cooling until the penny stops dancing.

Now somewhere 1 - 2 column diameters above the packing and 1 - 2 column diameters below the reflux coil you will put in your takeoff port. Because you are because you are building a VM design you will have a valve in it. The trick in the design is to provide enough back pressure so that the vapour goes up to the reflux coil, otherwise it is just a glorified pot still. Based on working data gleaned from this site, and reflux ratios, your takeoff pipe should be somewhere in the range of 1/4 to to a minimum of 1 /10 the area of your column. Remember you have a valve to tweak this number. So based on standard plumbing valves, 1/2 is a bit small but will work, 3/4 should be ideal, 1" is a bit large, but keep in mind that it is dependent on how much power you are applying to your boiler.

From there you go to your product condensor. Now you can undersize this because you are refluxing it, but I wouldn't recommend it, as you may want to use your condensor for pot stilling. A 1 meter chunk of 1/2 in 3/4 liebig will knock down 2000 watts depending on the input temp of the water and the flow rate. Over 2000 watts the vapour speed might be too fast for your condensor to work on it. If you put some packing in it loose, it will increase the efficiency. Think of radiator fins.

Now a parrot comes in (it just allows you to measure the ABV of the smallest amount of product coming out at the moment, do a search), when you are running the still and want to adjust your vapour valve for the highest possible ABV. But here is a hint, the faster you take it off, the lower your ABV will be. Because you've never run a still before I'll tell you one piece of practical knowledge in that operating properly, you can blow harder than the pressure your still is working at.

So Braddie there are the dots, you got most of the parts to connect them, that is if you want to listen to a troll.

Yes I do use a thermometer in my boiler, it is an easy way of knowing how much alcohol there is left in my still. When it hits 212 there ain't nothing left to boil off but water.

Hooch

[kiwistiller]

Troll.....

Never my intention... I never made the comment, "A still needs a thermometer like a fish needs a bicycle..." I did say it was a fork or spoon, both can be right. If you want to put lots of thermometers in your still Braddie, go for it. I would suggest one experiment though, put all your thermometers in a boiling pot of water on the stove not touching the bottom of the pot, and see what they read. Given that you are looking at a 0.1C or so variation, which thermometer would you trust?

Mate if you knew the first thing about what you're spouting on about, you'd realise that it isn't the accuracy of a thermometer that is critical, but the reliability of it. Whether or not it reads azeotropic vapours at 78.6 (as mine does) or 15.2 or 986.9 doesn't matter a jot. What matters is that it will spit out the same number when put in azeotropic vapour the next time you fire up your still. Most of them are pretty good at that. Why don't you try it with your pot of boiling water?

Now somewhere 1 - 2 column diameters above the packing and 1 - 2 column diameters below the reflux coil you will put in your takeoff port. Because you are because you are building a VM design you will have a valve in it. The trick in the design is to provide enough back pressure so that the vapour goes up to the reflux coil, otherwise it is just a glorified pot still. Based on working data gleaned from this site, and reflux ratios, your takeoff pipe should be somewhere in the range of 1/4 to to a minimum of 1 /10 the area of your column. Remember you have a valve to tweak this number. So based on standard plumbing valves, 1/2 is a bit small but will work, 3/4 should be ideal, 1" is a bit large, but keep in mind that it is dependent on how much power you are applying to your boiler.

Now that's just terrible advice. It's been shown that in a traditional VM design that relies on turbulence and reynolds numbers etc etc that vapour split is determined (as long as the still's been built right) by cross sectional areas available to it. bottom line, if you have a 2" column, keep your options open and put a 2" takeoff in. If you want to use a smaller takeoff you need to look at other ways to get vapour pressure to that port, and you need a headscolumn, large drop before liebig can help a bit etc etc (although that last one is a pretty good idea for any build).

Hooch, have you actually run a successful VM? One in the configuration that you're advising?