Heating Element Control

[crazyk78]

Hey guys...I ended up scoring a 3600W electric heater element out of a hot water system someone threw on the nature strip and I wanted to know if it will be ok to run with a variable controller on my house circuit? Oh and I'm on 240V 50hz

I'm looking to run my still in my garage which is on it's own circuit to the fuse box and I wanted to know it the 3600W is too much.

I'm converting a keg to be my boiler and was originally looking at a 2400W but seeing as I scored this I'm keen to use it.

Thanks

[Odessit]

I wanted to know it the 3600W is too much.

3600 W / 240 V = 15.
The current will be 15 amperes. Look at your fuse box and read what current is maximal for him. If 25 or more - OK. If 16 amperes - problems are possible, if less than 16 amperes - you can not use 3600W electric heater element.

[crazyk78]

Oh no, is it that easy to calculate...feeling a little embarrassed now

Well my RCD says 40A the actual circuit breakers don't have anything on them.

I'm going to buy a 2400W anyways so I'll see how it goes.

Thanks OD

[Odessit]

I'm going to buy a 2400W anyways so I'll see how it goes.Thanks OD

2400W will be good for distillation, but you will wait effervescence long time.
You can do a simple experiment - two or three electric irons or tea-pots (total power 4 kW) connect in a garage, and see how they will go. If all will be good, You can buy and use heater 3600 watts.
Wires for connection must be 1,5 mm2 or more.

[crazyk78]

Sweet, thanks for the info OD.

[Odessit]

thanks for the info OD.

OD is not only abbreviation of my nickname, but also abbreviation of word "overdose"...

[rad14701]

Here is a schematic straight out the the Teccor Thyristor Product Catalog... This is a single time constant circuit consisting of a minimum of parts... I'm guessing that the component ratings should be in the 1/2W to 1W range... This is not one of the schematics I mentioned that I was looking for in previous posts but I felt that it might be useful to anyone looking to experiment with a simple 120V controller for an element up to 1500W...

[Odessit]

When I recommended to use the triac of 12А for control of current 9.2 Amps (triac closes 130% of operating requirements), got your criticism about the necessity of 200%. But Teccor Thyristor Product Catalog allows the use of triac Q2015L5 (15 A) to control of heater 1500 watts( current 12.5 An at 120V). This triac closes 120% of operating requirement of current and only 117% of voltage. Let us will criticize a catalog together.

Excuse me. A current is measured by amperes. That is measured by volts? How is it correct in English? Voltage, Tension, or something other?
Thanks.

[rad14701]

Odessit, I said 16A and Teccor said 15A, both of which are above your 12A suggestion... That means the experts at Teccor are only a bit less cautious than I am... The difference of 1A also has to do with what amperages are offered by different manufacturers...

One issue you aren't taking into consideration is the initial load latency difference between a 1500W light bulb with its filament suspended in a vacuum in an open air environment compared to a 1500W heating element immersed in cool liquid, which makes a big difference... It's like comparing apples to oranges... The heating element is going to strain the circuit during warm up for a longer period of time than the light bulb element...

All that said, ff you want to build a marginal controller, which will require additional heat sink consideration to keep from failing during a run, go for it, but I'll stick with suggesting the additional margin of error... I'm not saying you're wrong in your calculations, I'd say I'm looking deeper into the big picture...

I hope this translates well...

[Odessit]

Odessit, I said 16A and Teccor said 15A, both of which are above your 12A suggestion... That means the experts at Teccor are only a bit less cautious than I am...

???
You said 16A triac for 9.2 A current, "coefficient of your carefulness" is 16 / 9,2 = 1.74.

Еxperts at Teccor use triac 15A for current 12,5 А (at Your last diagramm). К= 15 / 12.5 = 1,2

My suggestion was 12A triac for 9.2A current. K = 12 / 9.2 = 1.3

It means that experts at Teccor are only a bit less cautious than I am, and much less cautious than You are. But it is not bad, because a carefulness gives safety.

One issue you aren't taking into consideration is the initial load latency difference between a 1500W light bulb with its filament suspended in a vacuum in an open air environment compared to a 1500W heating element immersed in cool liquid, which makes a big difference... It's like comparing apples to oranges...

A difference between light bulb and our heating element is present. Resistance of tungsten cold filament in bulb less than hot filament 10 times. Initial current exceeds normal in several (up to 10)times while filament is cool - several milliseconds. But it is not dangerous for triac. For example, triac Q2015L5 has surge non-repetitive on-state current 200A @ 60Hz.


Thank you for the lesson of English

I do not use similar circuits a long ago - I use analog pressductor MPX5010 and PWM regulator. A column sets the necessary heating without my help. For control of triac I use optoisolators MOC3063, or special russian chip K1182PM1.

[maheel]

guys don't fight over the small details

i actually got the 26Amp BTA26-600B TRIAC
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BTA26-600B-TRIAC ... 2a082a0435" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

anyway i built it and it "works" but has an issue..... I have only run a 500W halogen spotlight so far

the potentiometer does not give much control, the dimming all happens in about 5-10mm of turning

any idea why? before i build a better case I would rather replace the parts now......

should i run it on a higher load to test ??

[Odessit]

Do not use halogen spotlight for testing. You can run an electric iron and any electric bulb, connected parallel for visual checking.
If control is non-linear, You need to add resistor 0.5-1 MOhm, connected like this.



If you can measure resistance between the first and second contacts of a potentiometer when your bulb will be switched off after dimming (do not forget to disconnect Your circuit from a hot wire while measurement will go), You can calculate exact resistance of the added resistor.

Radd = 500 * Rdark / (500 - Rdark)
(all resistances - kOhm)

For example, if electric bulb turn off completely when resistance of potentiometer will be 300k, added resistor must be 500 * 300 / ( 500 - 300) = 750 kOhm

750 kOhm (for this example) or a bit more. If to use less of calculated value, full deenergizing by potentiometer will be impossible.


Do not forget to use radiator for triac ! 1500w of load can kill him.

[maheel]

thanks i will try it with the element in my current boiler and a light bulb. i wired it up to a double power point so i can just "plug" both in.

the only light bulb i have is 25w thats why i went and got the halogen

it had the same effect of small adjustment range (turning) on just running the 25w but i assumed that was just the 25w issue?

yes i have the triac on a alloy heatsink (but may need a bigger one) and will mointor temp

intend (maybe) to use a CPU power supply to house so it has the fan to assist in cooling

one other Question....
when soldering up the parts do any have a "right direction" eg the Resistor does it need to be "the right way round"
my Diak DB3 has a silver band on one end does that need to be in a certain direction (band towards element?)

as i just copied you picture..... but it seems to "work"

either way it was $10 of fun

[Odessit]

Diac DB3 is Bidirectional Trigger Diode. Any direction of connect will be right.

If brightness (or load) decreases by turning of potentiometers handle clockwise, it is necessary to disconnect a wire from the first contact of a potentiometer and connect him with the third.

[Kiwi-lembic]

great reading ,theres some great work done in here ..cheers

[maheel]

i have not had a chance to retest..... but i am safe no ZAPPPP

[Pamulli]

I added the new Pot and capacitor and when I plug it in nothing happens. The heating element isn't coming on, no smoke, no zapps, no thrown breakers and I'm turning the pot all the way in both directions. Anyone have any suggestions?

[rad14701]

I added the new Pot and capacitor and when I plug it in nothing happens. The heating element isn't coming on, no smoke, no zapps, no thrown breakers and I'm turning the pot all the way in both directions. Anyone have any suggestions?

How about a picture or two of your handiwork so we can better help debug the problem... No sparks or smoke is a good thing and is most likely an indicator that you have something wired to where there is an open circuit... Or the smoke genie managed to sneak past you...

[Pamulli]

How about a picture or two of your handiwork so we can better help debug the problem... No sparks or smoke is a good thing and is most likely an indicator that you have something wired to where there is an open circuit... Or the smoke genie managed to sneak past you...

It's actually wired just like my diagram. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p6840958 The only thing I can think is that maybe I have MT1 and G backwards on the TO-220 chip. Do you think that could cause this?

[rad14701]

The pinouts appear to be correct in the diagram, Pamulli... However, there are a few triacs that use alternate pinouts... You should be able to pull up a datasheet for the exact triacs you have...

One thing you could try, which shouldn't release the smoke genie, is to move the power input on the small triac to the other side of the resistor... By that I mean rewiring from MT2 of the high power triac to MT1 of the sensitive triac... Leave the rest of the circuit as is...

I'm off to dinner but will be back later to smell for smoke...

[Pamulli]

The pinouts appear to be correct in the diagram, Pamulli... However, there are a few triacs that use alternate pinouts... You should be able to pull up a datasheet for the exact triacs you have...

One thing you could try, which shouldn't release the smoke genie, is to move the power input on the small triac to the other side of the resistor... By that I mean rewiring from MT2 of the high power triac to MT1 of the sensitive triac... Leave the rest of the circuit as is...

I'm off to dinner but will be back later to smell for smoke...

I tried finding the pinouts of the low power triac before and could not find anything to match the numbers on it. The only thing I could find was the manufacturer and when I looked up other triacs from this manufacturer they were all as my diagram has it. If I were to have it wrong do you think that could cause this?

[Pamulli]

One thing you could try, which shouldn't release the smoke genie, is to move the power input on the small triac to the other side of the resistor... By that I mean rewiring from MT2 of the high power triac to MT1 of the sensitive triac... Leave the rest of the circuit as is...

Well I thought I was trying your suggestion, but wasn't paying attention and moved the power from MT2 of the high power triac and put it on MT2 of the low power triac. It turned on and ran for about 30 seconds and then threw some serious sparks just as I put my head right over it. If I had bent down just a little further it would not have been good. I also need to go change my pants now.
So looks like I need to order another Triac and I think I'd like to order a low power Triac as well so that I can be certain of the pinouts. In an earlier post Bob mentioned this one http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lit ... NNlg1YI%3d Do you know if that one will work and also should I replace any of my other parts? By that I mean is there a chance anything else blew beside my power Triac? Maybe I'll just order a complete setup so that I will have a spare of everything.

Thanks

[Bob421]

I ordered three of everyhing just so I could fool the smoke genie. So far it's working. Only used one set so far.

[rad14701]

I ordered three of everyhing just so I could fool the smoke genie. So far it's working. Only used one set so far.

I have an order list, which hasn't yet been placed, that will have multiples (4 -6) of everything as well as several optional component values, for testing... Decreased household income has been holding me back from pulling the trigger... I'm dying to do more testing...

[newerbrewer]

Hey Guys,

I've noticed that on the Pinto Controller, the diagram Crude2 (not sure what page) has MT1 and MT2 backwards from is shown on some peoples pictures of their wiring (of the same controller). Because power can flow both ways through a triac, does it matter which is which (for MT1 and MT2)?

Thanks,

Brew

[rad14701]

Hey Guys,

I've noticed that on the Pinto Controller, the diagram Crude2 (not sure what page) has MT1 and MT2 backwards from is shown on some peoples pictures of their wiring (of the same controller). Because power can flow both ways through a triac, does it matter which is which (for MT1 and MT2)?

Thanks,

Brew

A schematic from one of the manufacturers depicts that alternate wiring example... I think it shows MT2 to MT2... I was going to try to investigate that and report back but haven't had a chance yet...

[WalkingWolf]

I've read through most all of these Heating Element Control "type" threads and I must admit 3/4 of the info reads like a foreign language to me. Never had any exposure to how electronics are put together and never picked up any of the lingo. What would you guys "in-the-know" recommend for a novice to begin to understand the schematics and terminology used in these discussions?

(It's really interesting and quite frustrating that I can't understand it)

[Pamulli]

Rad,
Do you know if this will work instead of using a chip from a dimmer? http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Lit ... NNlg1YI%3d" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thanks

[newerbrewer]

WW: This diagram helped. Alot. Think it was posted by pinto... cant find the thread so will repost.

Brew

[snideman]

Hello newerbrewer,
Unfortunately the diagram depicts a 120vAC circuit, Pamulli on the other hand is working 220vAc.

Pamulli did ja even consider the PSR-25 and a pot route instead, considering the time and $$$ you've already invested? I think I'm going that way when I build my 5500watt boiler, it seems almost too easy.