Volume Calculations Help Please!

[foursnow]

I'm relatively new here - I've been reading around for the last few weeks and I've got myself confused about something. I'm trying to learn as much as possible before rushing out and buying a lot of equipment. I've read a few books on the topic but recently was reading Ian Smiley's book, as I'm also looking to make a corn whiskey with a 30qt still.

He starts with a 30L mash ----> ferments -----> strains -----> leaving about 20L strained mash.

Transferring the 20L strained mash to the still for beer-stripping -----> produces about 3.5L low wines.

However, in his spirit run calculations later, it would take 20L of low wines to produce around 900mL of hearts. Once diluted, that would yield around 2L of good corn whiskey.

So to produce 2L of whiskey, would I need 5 stills worth of low wines??? (3.5L x 5 stills = 17.5L + feints = almost 20L)

This seems to make sense based on my numbers, but I read an article yesterday about a small distillery that was churning out 8L of liquor a day running only four 30qt stills. Based on my calculations above they would seem to need 20 stills [assuming they were running at the same time] to produce 8L.

Am I missing something or are my numbers way out of whack?? I really appreciate all the help!

[Kentucky shinner]

Here is my experience with this. You must remember most of this depends on the ABV% of your wash. I normally go for about 8-10%ABV of wash.
with a 6 gallon wash i will get about 1gallon of low wines. after I get 6gallon of low wines then I do a spirit run with my bok. I will usually get about 2.5 - 3 gallon of high grade 95% spirit. every time you distill it your just squeezing out more water.
I dont know if that will help but that is my experience. I am sure others will offer more help.
KS

[Kentucky shinner]

oh Ya welcome to the forum foursnow. why dont you go the the welcome section and give us a little introduction to yourself there pardner.

[foursnow]

Hey Kentucky shinner, thanks for the help! I just posted in the welcome section too - I was so preoccupied with trying to figure out the volumes I forgot to post first in there!

Your numbers seem a lot more realistic then mine were - the 2.5 gallons of high grade spirit, thats the amount of just the hearts or total output?

[rad14701]

foursnow, a little more research will go a long way... When doing fast strip runs, in a pot still or de-tuned reflux column, and then a spirit run through a reflux still, the reflux column compresses the foreshots, heads, and tails, so you end up with more hearts in neutral spirits form...

[kiwistiller]

20l of low wines to produce 900ml of hearts sounds like a mistake to me. are you sure that isn't mash he's talking about?

[Husker]

I have found that 20-25L of low wines should make 6-8L of hearts (whiskey/rum, etc), which would net you 10-12L of drinking strength.

So in the 'example', if 20L wash/mash gets you 3.5L low wines, then about 5 of those 20L washes will get you in the ball park of 20L of low wines, which should net you 12L of 'fine' finished drinking strength whiskey.

So, to me, 20L low wines -> 2L hearts seems to be wrong. Either the reference was wrong, or you mis-read it.

Now, your mileage may vary some. Some people shoot for higher initial ABV (a BIG mistake in my book). I shoot for about 10% washes and about 8% if mashing all grains. The numbers I list above are for 8% mashes. In the end, if I extracted every drop of ethanol from 100L of 8%, it would be 8L of 100% ethanol. If I watered that to 45%, it would be 17L or so. Now, like I said, I get 'about' 12L of 45% from 100L of 8% mash. I have obviously not extracted all of the possible ethanol. That is just the name of the game. I throw away about that much, due to cuts made (and some other waste, like ethanol left in the still, angels share, and other losses)

Keep in mind, for higher ABV washes, you have a couple things against you, in a flavored drink.
1. The excess ethanol made by adding sugar, adds no flavor. Thus, the final product will be 'washed out' and less flavorful.
2. The wash will have a LOT more off flavors, which may be hard (or nearly impossible) to remove.

H.

[Usge]

It depends on your cuts too...on my pot still double runs ...I don't think I've ever kept as much as most here say they do. I'm lucky if I keep 1/3 of it as hearts and that would only be if I was oaking it. If I'm making whitedog...it's even less. That means I usually have twice as many feints as I have hearts...not the other way around.

[foursnow]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all your quick help! I knew the numbers that I had sounded abnormally low. I went back and read thru the data and I noticed what I was had wrong.

There's a chart in the book showing that he got around 3.5L of low wines during a 8% mash beer-stripping run. Then in the chart below it has his numbers from a spirit run (where I got the 900mL hearts number).

I just assumed that that was the spirit run of the low wines from the previous data. Reading again more closely, this chart was a spirit-run with 20L of the mash and 500mL of feints - skipping the beer-stripping run.

The one thing that I'm trying to still understand is he says you can expect 3 - 3.5L of low wines during the first run using 20L of an 8% mash. This goes with what kentucky shinner and others have said. But in the spirit run chart I mentioned, where it's the 8% mash and 500mL of feints (so I'd assume you'd have similiar numbers as going from mash to low wines).

His numbers for the spirit run (8% mash plus some feints) break down like this:

• 60mL Foreshots
  660mL Heads
  900mL Hearts
  175mL Tails

for a total output of about 1.8L, nowhere near the 3.5L number that could be expected during the beer-stripping, even with the feints.

[Usge]

Think of it like cooking sauce. The more water you cook off...reduce the volume..the stronger it gets given the same ingredients you start with. The more water/volume there is..the less. This works the same way. You didn't post the abv of the collection amounts below from his chart....but I'd be willing to bet...if you multiplied you can get this to work out...as long as the starting abv of both things was the same.

This is one of the biggest misunderstandings about distillation. It doesn't "create" alcohol. Your alcohol is produced during fermentation..plus..whatever alc (feints) you add in the pot is your starting abv. The still simply "extracts" that at reduced volume by boiling off/separating the alc from the liquid in the pot at higher concentrations. So, 3.5 L of 35%...3,500 x .35...has 1225ml of 100% alc in it. 1.8L of 68% has 1800 x .68= 1224ml (of 100% alc) or...the "same" amount of alc as the 3.5 liters had in it...only extracted in a more concentrated, higher abv, less volume form. Does that make sense? You can't measure overal volume against each other without regard to abv. It''s the amount of alc in each you want to measure. The overall volume will change depending upon how concentrated (abv) it is. The higher the abv...the less volume it will be in . The Lower the abv..the higher the overall volume will be.

[foursnow]

So, 3.5 L of 35%...3,500 x .35...has 1225ml of 100% alc in it. 1.8L of 68% has 1800 x .68= 1224ml (of 100% alc) or...the "same" amount of alc as the 3.5 liters had in it...only extracted in a more concentrated, higher abv, less volume form.

Thanks Usge, that makes a lot of sense - I forgot to factor in the final abv amounts, and seeing your example above with the 3.5L and 1.8L was really helpful.

For anyone that was interested, here's the abv for the spirit run mentioned in my earlier post:'

Spirit Run with 20L 7.3% mash and 500mL feints at 92%
Foreshots - 60 mL - at 95%
Heads - 660 mL - at 95%
Hearts - 900 mL - at 93%
Tails - 220 mL - at 75%

I don't have the numbers for the 20L beer-stripping run, it just mentions "You will be collecting between 3 and 3.5L of low wines for every 20L of 8% alc/vol corn mash." I'm sure that crunching the exact numbers the amount of alcohol would be the same between the two runs.

[Usge]

In reading Ian's book...you have to remember that he uses a fractional/reflux still operating in various modes. In some chapters, he's using it in potstill mode...with the valve open, and using heat to drive it doing a strip run first, then doing a spirit run on low-wines. In others..he's using it in full reflux mode on wash/mash. Although there is some basic theory cross-over between the 2 examples...you have to be careful mixing metaphors between them so-to-speak. Observations running under full reflux...aren't necessarily going to crossover to pot-still behavior...and visa-versa.

Low-wines/stripping...is simply a volume reduction. The abv is whatever it is total..after stripping down to (commonly stopping when the emerging distillate is around 20% or around 210F). Getting the last 10-15% near the boiling point of water...requires a lot of energy that most feel isn't worth it. But, on average...I can say from doing it many, many times...a 5 gallon (close to 20L), wash is going to net you somewhere between 3/4 gal to 1 gal of 35% on average depending upon the abv of your wash/mash. 5-8% wash is going to get you more like 3/4 gal of low-wines at around 35% back if you run it to 20%. You'd have to run it further than that to get a full gallon. A wash of 10% or better will net you right at a gallon...again in the 35% abv range on average. The only thing you really need to measure to do your run calcs...is the overall abv of whatever you are running in your pot once it's all mixed /blended together etc. It' isn't necessary (other than for illustrative purposes) to separate out the vol and abv of feints/low-wines/mash/wash to do the calc. Just mix it all together and measure the aggregate. And as a safety note...make sure if that happens to be over 40%..that you water it down to bring it down to around 40% — too high abv in pot + fire/heat = potential for disaster.

If you are using a potstill and want to figure out about how much total volume you are going to collect or get back (given still doesn't collect at 100%, etc), multiply the potential alc number of your still charge by 1.25 if your pot collects on average somewhere around 80-85% to start...or 1.3 if your still is more in the 75-80% range...and that should get you right in the ball park for how much total volume you are going to be collecting — (there is also a volume calculator on the main site you can use). Divide that by the number of jars you have (I use 15 min, 24 max), and that tells you exactly how much you should be collecting per jar. I do this before every run. It works pretty well for me and my rig so I can get a good estimate of just how much I might be collecting...and how long my run is going to take (using flow-rate, ml per min).

[foursnow]

Great advice, thanks! Usge, when you are running your beer-stripping, do you throw out the first 50mL or so, or do you collect everything that comes out all the way down to 20%?

Reading around it seems like its user preference on what to do with the foreshots on the beer-stripping, but I'm just curious.

[Usge]

I try to make it a habit to throw out the first bit (fores)..even on strip runs. I usually toss about 100-250ml per 5 gals. Just use your nose...you can tell when the nastiest first bit passes. Tossing a little more on spirit run wont' hurt anything...it's heads anyway.