Materials Safety (scrubbies)

[alntdistil]

Couple of safety questions here.

First is copper scrubbies. I don't know how to embed images in my post so I'm just going to attach them all at the bottom... anyway, I bought these from the local supermarket. According to the packaging they are "100% copper" so I figured they were good. I've done a steam run and a vinegar run, this is what my scrubbies look like now. The brighter one is the one that was always on the very top of the column. The rest have changed colors. Is this to be expected or is this a sign of poor quality packing? They aren't magnetic so I'm fairly sure they aren't some kind of plated steel or iron.
I also have a whole bunch of different scrubbies that I don't know a whole lot about. A friend of mine got them from somewhere, he said the box had the brand name (don't remember) and the words "Stainless Steel Scrubbers," no other info. They are pretty magnetic (bad sign) and upon opening up a fresh one, there is a black residue left on your hands after playing with it for a few minutes. Should I even bother trying these in my column? I'm thinking they aren't even stainless at all.

Second is my "stainless steel" sink drain fitting which attaches my column to my boiler. Today I noticed some kind of rust/residue buildup on the top portion. Some gently scrubbing with a copper scrubbie removed it completely. And of course, you guessed it, magnetic. Is this also to be expected or is this a sign of non-stainless material? Safe to use or no?

I find all this a little hard to believe... how can manufacturers call a product "100% copper" or "stainless steel" if it is in fact, NOT what it claims to be?

[Dnderhead]

first stainless is not all the same. depending what it is made of and made for. 300 series is used mostly for food while 400 series is used for cutlery (can be worked then heat treated)
there is others that is used in boats, pumps etc, some like the 400 series is magnetic.

next copper will change color as acids attack it. that is the whole purpose of using it. as the acids attack the copper it produces "salts" that fall to the bottom of still.
thus removing such as sulphates. (sulphates give your distillate a bitter flavor)

[alntdistil]

Okaaay, you didn't answer my important question though. Safe or no?

You're saying that my copper scrubbies are supposed to look like this? OK, that's good. Thanks.

I'm aware of the different varieties of stainless. The common property among them is that they're "stainless," no? If my sink drain is stainless then why is it rusting? Is it safe to have rust in the vapor path? Is it sufficient to just clean it off after every run?

[olddog]

Even 316 marine grade stainless will rust in the right conditions, just try owning a boat.



OD

[alntdistil]

I appreciate your replies guys, thanks. I'm just nervous about ensuring that whatever comes out of my still is absolutely safe to drink (a justified concern, I believe). I really don't want to come off sounding like a jerk here but you still didn't answer my question, olddog. This board is generally pretty safety-conscious so I would be willing to bet that the simple fact that someone has not yet posted a dire warning against my materials is an indication that I should be good. I'd really like a specific answer though...

My confusion arises because everywhere on this site says that stainless is safe to use. In fact, it is highly recommended by many members. However, common sense tells me that rust in my vapor path is not good. I have never exposed any metal to high temperature vapors so I have literally no idea how they should be reacting. If this is typical behavior for a still then I won't worry about it. If it's a problem, then I want to fix it as soon as possible because I don't want to get sick (or get anyone else sick). Could someone who has successfully used a stainless sink fitting let me know, please?

[manu de hanoi]

Hi,
So far all your stuff looks ok, copper scrubbers being blueish is normal and the slight rust on the stainless steel, if it is rust, should come off easily with a wet cloth. The sink drain might be dangerous if you saw something like a layer of stainless steel peeling off and rust below it.

Yes manufacturers , especially chinese, lie about the grade of metals they use. Very often 201 grade steel is sold as 304 but it is not dangerous for health.


PS: rust and ions don't get into vapors.

Quizz: what is the smell of rust ?

[alntdistil]

Thanks, manu. That's what I was wondering about. I feel like I might have been a little paranoid, I figure you can't be too cautious with stuff like this...

Gonna fire this bad boy up again tomorrow for my first throw-away wash run. Just a steam after that and it'll be ready to run it for real.

[Braz]

Those are the same scrubbies - Libman brand - that I am using. I trust them.

[ScottishBoy]

Hi,

Quizz: what is the smell of rust ?

Blood is the smell of rust.

The copper looks okay to me. Its not uncommon for copper in a reflux to take on a darker color when being used. I was initially concerened when I took mine out and discovered that I had a darker color right in the middle where my reflux dumped into. I ran it through another cleaning just to be sure, but it will darken.
The black residue on your hands is not a great sign. It could be two things, a preservative/machine fluid residue or oxides. Before you use any scrubbies you should give them a nice wash in very hot water and a little vinegar. Let them air dry in the sun if possible. The residue is probably the machine fluid they used to strip it off the core. The reason they dont remove this is expense and also because it keeps the SS shiny. Take a careful note of any scrubbies you buy and you will see that nearly all of them come in plastic bags to prevent oxidation. People like shiny scrubbies because they associate shiny with clean.

As to the purity of any metals. They are all suspect if they arent made in the West. China is notorious for simply changing the stamps on metal grades and laughing about the stupid Westerners. If they werent so damn cheap, we would have never even felt the need to deal with them. The measure 100% actually takes several contaminant factors into consideration. I think the claim can be made by US MFRs that a pure copper scrubbie can actually have up to .7% extraneous materials. 99.3 is always rounded up by advertisers. Dont quote me on that. Its a vague memory and is probably wrong.
Ever seen a beer commercial where they say "All natural ingredients"? There are 76 ( yes! 76! ) ingredients that can be used in the beer process that are classed as an extraneous chemical and DONT have to be listed in the ingredient list.

Best advice I can give you is to carry a magnet in your car ( clip it under your seat) and take it into the store. UNROLL your scrubbies and make sure you dont have some other packing inside. Some brands do this in the states. Plastic under the copper. Clean them and try again wit a vinegar run, then a toss run.

The big thing is wether your alcohol is clear and has a good taste. Copper will age to a darker color, especially when exposed to the sulphates and acetates in the vapor. The dark stuff on the SS is a bit heavier than mine, but I have seen a slight darkeneing in my SS at the bottom of my column.

Give it a nice clean and see what happens.

[beelah]

No need to comment much more on the copper scrubbers, as enough has been soad.

On the stainless steel, I have found varring quality and also some that I thought were stainless but were chrome plated.

When I bought my drains I asked for and got the most expesive ones and have had nor problems with them rusting. I bought mine from Home Depot and I still have the box I think they came in. I wil see about taking a picture and posting it here.

The other option is to go with a solid brass connector that you add a threaded copper connector to, or just solder the copper pipe to the brass connector. If you go that route then you are looking at much more cost, but then you only build once and you know it will be safe.

I should also mention, seeing as you are pretty safety oriented, that if you are going to use brass conectors, you should read-up on how you "pickle" or clean up any brass connections of any lead. There are some links on this formun or on the parent site.

On your other question about the leibig, you only need one about 12" long, with 1/4'' internal pipe and 1/2'' outside jacket. THis wil not wiegh too much, but if you are concerned, you could build a little brace to support it against the column.

However, when I look at you design and the angle at which the take-off tube comes off, I really think there will be no problem with it breaking the solder join. You couls also just beef up the amount of solder on the joint to make it stonger. It won't look so pretty, but it will be stonger.

Also, because you run water in to the liebig first, the out the end and up into you internal coil, I find that the connecting plumbing between the coil and liebig acts as a kind of a hanger/brace, especially if you make the connection just enough to connect the two, where there is a bit of tension on it, holding up the leibig.

It may pull your your unit over some, but then look at making a sling to hold it up to the ceiling. Just some ideas for you to consider.

[rad14701]

Looks like the copper is developing a patina, which is not a problem at all... Don't see a problem with the sink drain either... As long as any residue wipes off without leaving pitting then everything should be alright...

[Johnathan]

I would not worry about rust. If that is all it is, it is non-volatile and even if small amounts did get into your booze it is non-toxic. Your body needs iron but it is likely that mineral iron (like rust) will go straight through. The only conceivable problem that iron can cause is if you have a disease called haemachromatosis (body can't shed iron and it builds up in the liver to toxic levels). If you have that you sure as hell will know about it. Consuming rust (even in significant amounts) would not cause this disease because in its primary form it is inherited. In its secondary form it can be caused by alcoholism among other things. Bottom line is that rust is not a problem......