Rubber seals.....

[Sr WiNdTech]

http://www.youtube.com/user/RainierDist ... Ap5XM6ZmSA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAp5XM6ZmSA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow



They use rubber seals instead of solder, this seems like a neat idea, would save a lot of money as well... what are your thoughts?

[andrewgwu]

I would be really worried what rubber would leach off into my product, it is generally advised against.

I also don't see much cost savings. Soldering isn't very expensive. I silver braze my projects and even that isn't that expensive for a few joints.

[Sr WiNdTech]

Your not seeing my point for being cheaper...

You have a bunch of pipes in all different configurations and throw them all together at any time quickly to make many different combinations. Also you can break it down into pieces where nobody could tell what it is, say if you lived anywhere but NZ or many other reasons...

As for the rubber leaching, I'm sure you could use some sort of sillicon rubber seals, I'm not sure of the type of rubber he is using but I'm sure some are safer than others.

[Mud Mechanik]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090

Pay special attention to rule #8.

[Sr WiNdTech]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090

Pay special attention to rule #8.

Pay special attention to the difference between rubber and plastic...

I'm pretty sure that there are many vehicle that use E85 resistant rubber seals/hoses.

[Mud Mechanik]

Use whatever you want, I was just trying to keep the thread from being locked.

[cob]

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090

Pay special attention to rule #8.

Pay special attention to the difference between rubber and plastic...

I'm pretty sure that there are many vehicle that use E85 resistant rubber seals/hoses.

he is using epdm.

msds for epdm http://www.docstoc.com/docs/32138139/MA ... ATA-SHEET-(MSDS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)-EPDM-RUBBER-SHEET

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=19739

[rad14701]

I have PM'd Sr WiNdTech regarding the potential of this topic being locked... In fact I stated in it that I would lock it but I will refrain from doing so for the time being...

The rules regarding synthetics are clear and just about every possible synthetic has already been discussed, almost to ad nauseum... We don't need yet another spin on them...

Keep posts factual and constructive, with laboratory and/or MSDS proof, or the topic gets locked...

[Sr WiNdTech]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=viton+ethanol+seal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

This link will also show other ethanol resistant seals (Buna or Viton)

Because this is an arguable topic doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place, there are always better ways then you "know"

With out exploration into the "unknown" you are blind, it seems that this rule #8 is partly communism in a sense. Has anybody watched any documentaries on North Korea? if not you need to watch it and then you may understand where I'm coming from here... There are ways to use rubber in your still whether or not some people think so.

[Mud Mechanik]

I should not have flamed, my apologies. In the original post, nothing was said about viton or buna, only rubber, even if it was, they are in fact resistant to ethanol but all info about them points to fuel ethanol resistance only.

[Sr WiNdTech]

I should not have flamed, my apologies. In the original post, nothing was said about viton or buna, only rubber, even if it was, they are in fact resistant to ethanol but all info about them points to fuel ethanol resistance only.

ok...? maybe I'm a dumbass here but what is the difference between "fuel ethanol" and "drinking ethanol"

[aqua vitae]

One difference is that fuel ethanol is not for drinking and therefore it doesn't matter if it contains some nasties.

However, those seals looks like the one's AS use for their PDA-1. The ones AS manufactures works fine for me. But I don't advise others to use it if they not feel safe with it. And don't go use whatever rubber that looks like that kids, only buy seals from distillery gear shops that is tested and safe.

[junkyard dawg]

again, why?

You don't need rubber or plastic or anything but copper or stainless or glass.

So, why worry about synthetic o rings?

I don't mean to dissuade you, please do as you please.

but,

The Best Practice is to use only copper or stainless or glass. Any thing else is halfstepping and debated enough already. Go read back a little... Its been talked to death...

[aqua vitae]

I don't want debate. That is just what I use. Won't comment further on this.
If moderators don't want others to get ideas from my post please remove it as my delete button disappeared after your post junkyard dawg.

[rad14701]

I should not have flamed, my apologies. In the original post, nothing was said about viton or buna, only rubber, even if it was, they are in fact resistant to ethanol but all info about them points to fuel ethanol resistance only.

ok...? maybe I'm a dumbass here but what is the difference between "fuel ethanol" and "drinking ethanol"

Hot high proof alcohol vapor is more caustic than cooled liquid alcohol...

[MuleKicker]

I should not have flamed, my apologies. In the original post, nothing was said about viton or buna, only rubber, even if it was, they are in fact resistant to ethanol but all info about them points to fuel ethanol resistance only.

ok...? maybe I'm a dumbass here but what is the difference between "fuel ethanol" and "drinking ethanol"

your car aint gonna get cancer, or some other disease because some unknown chemical is in the fuel... your body on the other hand is a different story. Have you ever smelled PURE fuel ethanol? I have a friend here that works at a ethanol plant. He took a pint, before it was denatured, and the shit was beyond unpalateable. Horrible smelling shit, you couldnt bring yourself to drink.
There aint no cuts in fuel ethanol. Your car dont care what it tastes like... And my car never bitched about a raging headache the next morning.

[azeo]

ground hog day.. never mind! It does give a chance to air concerns, spread the word, raise debate, inform etc

In addition to what's already been said, here's some other issues to consider around seals, one or two of which don't often get a mention. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, it's just a response to the matter raised. Usual disclaimer.

- Manufacturers tend to state the resistance of their product *to* the various compounds, usually meaning how stable the seal will be over time over the application temperature range and compound exposure. So they are much more concerned about how the seal is going to perform as a *seal*, not about how whether relatively small amounts of the material may be leached out, as long as the seal does not deteriorate over the desired lifetime.

That's why they specify *user trials*, or ptfe for super clean, non out-gassing/leaching requirements in hostile environments, and why fuel-grade seals have little meaning for beverage purpose. A seal can certainly maintain it's sealing performance integrity while still being a noxious wee beast in our application, releasing odours, plastics breakdown traces, contaminating column, condensor, spirit etc.

It's hard for them to guarantee performance when exposed to a *range* of chemicals, which brings me to point no. 2.

- Our activities produce a wide range of chemicals and pH's, especially in the foreshots, and then a range of other nasties in the tails, all at elevated temperatures where reactions speed up. We are looking at acetone, acetal aldehydes, acidic vapours, higher alcohols, furfurals etc, all sorts of nasties that I visualise having a chomp on the seals in the presence of each other, and steam. It's not a very friendly environment, especially for the trace leachant quantities we are worried about.

The problem is, it's darn hard to find a material (besides ptfe and the safe "naturals"), that is "resistant" to ethanol, *and* just acetone, let alone aldehydes, acids, steam and the other hot trace chemicals that come through. These all have the ability to degrade the material, and make it more susceptible to ethanol, or indeed any of the other compunds.

If one takes a look at a *good* technical data sheet, they list and rate various types of seal material across various compounds and temps. It's very difficult to find one that that has a top rating for all the chemicals and temp ranges we operate in. So to identify any one type as being suitable because it's "ethanol resistant" without consdidering the whole picture and all conditions, carries an element of risk and the unknown.

I would like see materials analysed and tested under the severest conditions *we* might expect during the course of repeated distillations. This means exposure to all the active chemicals and compounds that would be present in various types of washes, through the foreshots, hearts and tails phases, repeated many times, checking for breakdown and leaching after continued exposure, especially in the hearts phase, obviously, and how volatile any contaminants are in the heads and tails for recycling reasons. Only after passing these stringent types of tests, would I be happy that a particular synthetic material was truly safe.

It could be a grave mistake to think that a material won't leach or breakdown somewhat in the presence of hot, relatively pure ethanol after repeated exposure to foreshots and tails.

Only after prolonged testing simulating something like approaching lifetime use, could one be confident that a certain material carries minimum risk.

Even ptfe has it's concerns, and many people do not consider using it. That's a personal and fair choice.

There's no doubt seals make life easy, especially at the prototyping stage, and especially for cleaning. It might take work, but alternatives for synthetics can be found, or situations designed around.

Luckily, at the pressures we operate, we're not asking too much for unions/joins to deal with, but we *are* asking them to be *safe*. Hot explosive vapor, or dripping flammable liquid is not a substance and situation to be taken lightly, ever.

There are the old standbys, flour paste, hemp, cotton etc, and of course ptfe tape, which probably ranks as one of the few acceptable synthetics.

There's also annealed copper, makes a damn good seal when cranked down, and there are also copper/stainless "u" washers that can have a compressable inner in any material you like ( a bit like an exhaust header seal) but only expose the metal to the working medium. Then there are the "olived" type connections, or "croxed" pipe joins, commercial or home-made flanges etc that can be sealed metal-metal if necessary, especially after being lapped with valve griding paste, and perform well with a backup of flour paste, and/or can have a hemp or cotton gasket, or back-up wrap as well, mainly as a leak indicator than anything else.

So a range of ideas and possibilities.

What we're looking to avoid, are any long term affects worse than the actual alcohol consumption itself. Reduce unwanted "contaminants" below that level, and we're probably alright! Do better than that, then one is truly taking responsibility.

This forum does have a stringent attitude to plastics/synthetics etc. I see it as a "better safe than sorry" attitude that needs to be directed particularly at the "wanderers"/passers-by, curious, shorter attention span types (well. that's me too!), or heavens forbid, don't care much types/bootleggers etc, who really do need to be scared into avoiding the worst kinds of ideas by the fear of responsibilty and discovery.

I'd say in addition, there is also a great deal of responsibility being taken by those promoting our art, even if it does seem "over the top", one has to realise where this is coming from, and why.

We've seen some truly shocking set-ups over the years, both privately made, *and* commercial home distillation units. We've probably had some of the worst examples here in NZ, what effects this may have had is unknown. At least it wasn't a large section of the population, and most of these plastic "horrors are retired now, although occaisonally we see them appear on auction sites.

There are so many documented stories of what we thought was ok (because of "them, mainly), being proven otherwise, that it doesn't hurt to be sceptical.

Another issue to consider, is that where it's legal to home-distil, it's an easily lost privilidge. Where it isn't legal, it's a long, hard, battle to obtain. Others who are working hard to earn the same right in other countries are trying to ensure the highest possible standards, higher than commercial more than likely. It's the only defense against "reefer madness". A big slip-up, or news-grabbing item, could knock back those efforts by years. We all owe it to each other and ourselves friends/family etc to maintain high standards.

Any choice in synthetics needs to be an informed choice, especially perhaps if consuming over long periods of time, or sharing with others.

Make that an informed choice, find/choose something proven/at least accepted commercially (although that could be questionable!), then at least one will be approaching the situation with eyes open, and considering all possibilities and ramifications responsibly, and able to enjoy our "art" to it's utmost!

[olddog]

Nuf said, excellent posting Azeo.

This thread will now be locked.