Hiding from the revenuers!

White Lightning · Post by **White Lightning** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:24 pm

Being new to distilling I'm still a little uneasy with the idea of illegality of this hobby. This is strictly a hobby for my own enjoyment but somehow I don't think that would be a very good defense to a judge. I was wondering what you (American) guys think about this aspect of it? What kind of advice would you have? I'm not stupid, I don't tell strangers about it but should I really be nervous about telling my best friend about my latest run over a cell phone? How secretive does one need to be? I get the impression that if you do this thing on such a small scale for your own enjoyment, even though it is still illegal, that it is more or less overlooked by the authorities?

Post by **blanikdog** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:37 pm

Do you want us to tell you that it's cool to break the law? We won't do this. If you make illicit booze, you make illicit booze. This unfortunately is YOUR decision and YOURS alone. Sorry

STAY SAFE

Post by **LWTCS** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:38 pm

Maybe changing your handle to,,,,,

"Only Distilling Water' will help ease your fears.

Don't you think it is clear what most think round here?.....Thousands of members and a gazillion posts later with all these folks asking bout how to,,,,,,,,,more better self medicate and so forth.

Not trying to offend.

Post by **Bull Rider** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:42 pm

Ya pay your money, and ya take your chances...

Bull.

Post by **Barney Fife** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:36 pm

Ask yourself if the law was put in place to protect you, or to screw you.

A law that protects me or you is a good law, and I will obey it, and I will tell you to obey it, also. A law that is in place only to screw me and you, well, that law is not only unconstitutional, but immoral!

Post by **blanikdog** » Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:45 pm

Doesn't matter Barney, it's still the law. Back in the sixties we had a law that said that some men in their twenties - not yet able to vote - were conscripted and sent to an immoral war in Vietnam. Five hundred killed and 3629 wounded, not to mention 50,000 still with PTSD. Refuse to go and you cop two years in the slammer. To the best of my knowledge none of the law makers sons went.

A wise man in this forum once pointed out to me that I had spelt justice incorrectly. It's spelt in two words, 'just us'. And he is damn right..

Post by **Bayou-Ruler** » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:08 am

White Lightning wrote:Being new to distilling I'm still a little uneasy with the idea of illegality of this hobby. This is strictly a hobby for my own enjoyment but somehow I don't think that would be a very good defense to a judge. I was wondering what you (American) guys think about this aspect of it? What kind of advice would you have? I'm not stupid, I don't tell strangers about it but should I really be nervous about telling my best friend about my latest run over a cell phone? How secretive does one need to be? I get the impression that if you do this thing on such a small scale for your own enjoyment, even though it is still illegal, that it is more or less overlooked by the authorities?

Historically distillation if wet goods is NOT for the faint of heart...........................................

White Lightning · Post by **White Lightning** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:57 pm

No, I wasn't looking for someone to tell me it's ok to break the law. I was only asking what you guys do to maximize your security while still enjoying your home hobby?
Posting on here is the closest I get to publicizing this science project. The knowledge of the legality of what I do is always present yet I'm generally not too concerned because I tell myself "It's just a personal hobby, I'm not selling anything, I'm making stuff that is safe and only I and a friend now and then will use, etc". However, I like to be the safest, most secure that I can short of giving this hobby up and thought you guys would have some tips, stories, parables, admonitions, anything.
I can understand this being a touchy subject and merely posting and answering to this I guess could theoretically be risky behavior?

Some general rules I've made for myself,
Don't talk about it in public.
Only share with close friends.
Don't talk about it on the internet in anyway that, I hope, can be linked to my real name.
I bought my essential oil distiller in cash.
Never ever sell.

But there are areas where I wonder if I'm being overly protective and or paranoid such as;
Should I be worried about talking about it on the phone?
Is it too risky for friends of friends to know about it? I trust my friends, but I can't be sure of someone I've never met even if they are my friend's friend.

Thanks again guys

kenfyoozed · Post by **kenfyoozed** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:07 pm

When I started I had the same concern as you. At some point I know I will probably be in jail for my hobby. I dont sell or yell, but my fiends do know. So I take my chances. I know legally its wrong, and Ill take my stripes whenever the time comes. I figure if I let the judge try my products he just might agree that home made is better than store bought.

Post by **Samohon** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:41 pm

Like most stillers that are into our hobby, I've invested a lot of money, time and research into my home distillery. As is the case with most hobby's, this is the norm. I keep about 20 Liters of ageing liquor in my fathers shed, 15 miles away and only ever bring it back when its ready to temper down to drinking strength.

When I first started pot stillin about 15 years ago, not much info was available, either on the bookshelf or the internet. But the revenuers were still there, smashing their way through the illegal stills just to squeeze a little more $$$ from the hobby. Granted, most of the stills that they seized were large affairs, selling their product for a few dollars. Things have come a long way since then and so has the investigative means by which the revenuers catch an illegal distiller. Vigilance has been upped at my end and I never mention my closed-door hobby to anyone. When my friends come round to the house we very rarely sit round and drink my product. But you have to show your product off somewhere and I always have a bottle of my whiskey/vodka on the table, when we have a few friends round for dinner, depending on who it is.

Like you Ken, if I got THE KNOCK tomorrow, i'd take it on the chin as I know its illegal and I'm doing wrong by distilling alcohol. But I friggin love this hobby and if I couldn't do it at home, i'd do it somewhere else... My new flute build will not be run at home, nor will it be stored there, just in case it does happen... Cost me a friggin arm and a leg...

Post by **rad14701** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:31 pm

I have a problem with the friend of a friend knowing anything... In a hobby like this I consider myself as being the only person allowed to tell anyone about what I do... Period... If you tell two people and they tell two people who in turn tell two people, then too many people already know... That's 14 people knowing what you do... As they say, loose lips ink ships... If you cannot trust a person to keep what you tell them a secret then they don't deserve to know... If you get busted due to a friend three times removed it is still your closest friends fault if he spilled the beans...

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:22 pm

It will make you take a close look at who your true friends are. And whether they can even be trusted.

Post by **Cascade** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:40 pm

One way that has not been mentioned is to simply go legit. The process is a pain in the ass but at least you can be open about it. Someday you might even have some extra to sell and you could do it no problem.

Anyway, that is what I am trying and I have never distilled anything. Lots of you on here have a lot of experience and for now I can only go by what you have taught and teach as a mental exercise. Reading it over and over though does have its merits!

Not much longer though (in the grand scheme of things)

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:57 pm

How do you go legit without selling? Last I checked this was not an option. In the united states. To make fuel for your car yes. But not for personal consumption. That's two different things. And they don't mix. If your making fuel you just let them know you have a still. And give them permission to inspect your operation at any time they want to.

Post by **Cascade** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:39 pm

You still have to pay the taxes on it. The $$ is what uncle wants.

I'll let you know how it goes in any case.

Post by **rubber duck** » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:01 pm

I'm not distilling, I'm making beer and condensing it so it will fit in the bottle. That's what I'm going to tell the judge if the time ever comes.

Post by **Husker** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:29 am

White Lightning wrote:No, I wasn't looking for someone to tell me it's ok to break the law. I was only asking what you guys do to maximize your security while still enjoying your home hobby?

There are things which can be done. However, always remember, no matter how careful you are hiding the fact that you are performing something explicitly prohibited, there is alway the chance that you will get caught.

Some general rules I've made for myself,
Don't talk about it in public.
Only share with close friends.
Don't talk about it on the internet in anyway that, I hope, can be linked to my real name.
I bought my essential oil distiller in cash.
Never ever sell.

The last item is VERY important. The one thing that gets people busted faster than anything else IS trying to sell. The third item your list is very questionable. The fewer people that know what you are doing, the better.

I would add these to the list.

Do not produce/store huge quantities.
Keep your still broken down (if possible), and out of site, away from any liquor supply.

But there are areas where I wonder if I'm being overly protective and or paranoid such as;
Should I be worried about talking about it on the phone?
Is it too risky for friends of friends to know about it? I trust my friends, but I can't be sure of someone I've never met even if they are my friend's friend.

Any talk, at all, can end up coming back later to bite you in the arse. I seriously doubt there is any sting that is monitoring your phone conversations. If they are already tapping your phone, it is likely way too late for you anyway. As for trusting friends, yes you may do this, but what happens after a falling out / feud?

Just remember, there are usually 4-5 scenarios where non-selling shiners get busted.
1. Someone they knew and told what they were doing, made a complaint to the lawman about what they were doing.
2. Someone they knew and told what they were doing, told someone else (....) who made a complaint to the lawman.
3. The law finds the still/booze due to a search because of some other illicit action, and the moonshining is added on.
4. There is some accident (fire, explosion, kids break in and steal your product and later try to get out of trouble, etc), which causes the bust. It's pretty tough to not get busted when your outbuilding/garage/house is burnt to the ground and there is a 1/3 filled still sitting in the middle of it.
5. simple dumb (bad) luck. Such as cops were canvasing the area for some other reason, and stumbled upon the person in the act of shining/aging/bottling, etc, but were not there looking for this person, or for shining at all.

Post by **Samohon** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 1:41 am

Thought our UK members would like to see the law as written by HMRC... (Amended in 2006)

The Law of Distilling Alcohol for Beverage in the UK wrote: SPIR3080 - Law, Policy and Application - Licensing Offences
Law
2.9 Save as provided by or under this Act, any person who, otherwise than under and in accordance with an excise licence under this Act so authorising him-

(a) manufactures spirits, whether by distillation of a fermented liquor or by any other process; or

(b) uses a still for distilling, rectifying or compounding spirits; or

(c) distils or has in his possession any low wines or feints; or

(d) not being a vinegar-maker, brews or makes or has in his possession any wort or wash fit for distillation,

shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding 5 on the standard scale –ALDA s25(1)

Without prejudice to any other requirement as to the production of licences contained in the Customs and Excise Acts 1979, if any person who is the holder of an excise licence to carry on any trade or to manufacture or sell any goods fails to produce his licence for examination within one month after being so requested by an officer his failure shall attract a penalty under section 9 of the Finance Act 1994 (civil penalties) –CEMA s101(4)

Policy and Application
It is an offence for any person who does not hold a distiller’s licence to;

manufacture spirits; or

use a still for distilling spirits; or

distil or be in possession of any low wines or feints;or

brew, make or have any wort or wash fit for distillation (unless licensed as a brewer or wine producer, registered as a cider maker or

carrying on the trade of a vinegar – maker).

The above offences are likely to involve illicit distillation and all such cases should be investigated.

Before offence action can be taken, you need to be able to demonstrate that a formal request for production of the licence has been made.

To get a distillers license in the UK, you must produce at least 10 hectolitres (1000 Liter) in an 8 hour shift and have separate premises for said distillation. At least that is what I've heard. Dont want to ask HMRC as this would attract attention to my 0.03 hectolitre still...

SPIR3090 - Law, Policy and Application - Stills under 18 hectolitres capacity
Law
Where the largest still to be used on any premises in respect of which a distiller’s licence is sought for the manufacture of spirits by distillation of a fermented liquor is of less than 18 hectolitres capacity, the Commissioners may refuse to grant a licence or may grant it only subject to such conditions as they see fit to impose and where the largest still so used on any premises in respect of which a licence is held is of less than that capacity, the Commissioners may revoke the licence or attach to it such conditions as they see fit to impose –ALDA s12(5)

Policy and Application
Although each application for a distiller’s licence is considered on its merits, it is not our normal policy to grant approval where the spirits manufactured will be used as an alcoholic beverage (whether for sale or not) and the largest still used has a capacity of less than 18 hectolitres, or an equivalent throughput could not be achieved in an 8 hour shift using a patent or continuous still.

However, we may consider licence applications in respect of stills below 18 hectolitres where there are satisfactory controls in place to protect the revenue and the required control resources are not disproportionate to the amount of revenue involved.

Similarly, where an application for a distiller’s licence has been made and the spirits will not be used for the manufacture of alcoholic beverages, for instance the manufacture of flavouring essences or for experimental or research purposes, the application may be allowed, subject to conditions.

All applications to manufacture spirits in stills of less than 18 hectolitres are to be referred to the Alcohol Team, ESM for consideration on a case by case basis.

Gonna need a bigger boat...

Hope it helps...

Kentucky shinner · Post by **Kentucky shinner** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:04 am

I obtained a Ethanol permit From the TTB for Free. Very easy to do and I can still up to 10,000 gallon per year legally. The problem is, the TTB now has permission to come on to my property at anytime and check me out.
You fill out the forms, send then in and in about 2 months they will call you and do a phone interview. During this interview they explained and I quote" as long as the "Spirits" do not leave my property I don't have to do anything to it. If they leave my property I must put gasoline in it so it is not fit for human consumption."
I obtained this because I am so out in the open running a business that has to do with this hobby. I live in a very very small community and wanted to be able to run my stills at any time and not worry about Johnny law walking in my shop..

Dont Tell and Dont Sell PERIOD is the best advice... you are now and outlaw...

Post by **LWTCS** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:13 am

I was wondering what you were going to do Mike,,,,, what with all the new and amplified exposure.

Everything has a trade off I guess.

Kentucky shinner · Post by **Kentucky shinner** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:19 am

Yep I figured I better imply the old CYA.... cover yo ass theory.
I dont like the idea they they can come on my property but... with all the exposure I figure this is better than the alternative.. Pluse I now have a sticker on my lawn mower that says "alcoholic"....LOL she is a alcohol burner.....

Post by **Bushman** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:21 am

LWTCS wrote:I was wondering what you were going to do Mike,,,,, what with all the new and amplified exposure.

Everything has a trade off I guess.

I was also wondering how you got around the exposure once you started marketing your rigs. Was it hard to get your license/permit?

Kentucky shinner · Post by **Kentucky shinner** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:23 am

Easy'st thing I have ever done where the government is involved.

Post by **Bushman** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:33 am

Kentucky shinner wrote:Easy'st thing I have ever done where the government is involved.

That is really good to here, I was in education for 33 years which is a form of government and I know how frustrating it can be just to get someone to listen to your ideas or proposals let alone implement them! Keep up the good work KS you are paving the way for a lot of us.

Post by **Fastill** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:46 am

Kentucky shinner wrote:Yep I figured I better imply the old CYA.... cover yo ass theory.
I dont like the idea they they can come on my property but... with all the exposure I figure this is better than the alternative.. Pluse I now have a sticker on my lawn mower that says "alcoholic"....LOL she is a alcohol burner.....

I just gotta ask.....
How will you reply when they ask why your lawnmower fuel is sitting on oak???

Post by **LWTCS** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:19 am

Fastill wrote:How will you reply when they ask why your lawnmower fuel is sitting on oak???

Haha

,,,,hmmm.

Swut keeps the seals and such from dryin out

ah ah? howz that?

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:08 am

Fastill wrote:I just gotta ask.....
How will you reply when they ask why your lawnmower fuel is sitting on oak???

I like the smell of bar-b-q when I am mowing the lawn!

Post by **rubber duck** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:18 am

Isn't that funny how you can get a fuel permit and make it in your back yard and it's not a problem to distill in your backyrad but if you want to go really legit you have to jump through all the zoning and fire marshal crap. the feds will let you make fuel in your back yard but they won't let you got legal in your backyard shop.

Post by **mash rookie** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:22 am

Kentucky shinner wrote:I obtained a Ethanol permit From the TTB for Free. Very easy to do and I can still up to 10,000 gallon per year legally. The problem is, the TTB now has permission to come on to my property at anytime and check me out.
You fill out the forms, send then in and in about 2 months they will call you and do a phone interview. During this interview they explained and I quote" as long as the "Spirits" do not leave my property I don't have to do anything to it. If they leave my property I must put gasoline in it so it is not fit for human consumption."
I obtained this because I am so out in the open running a business that has to do with this hobby. I live in a very very small community and wanted to be able to run my stills at any time and not worry about Johnny law walking in my shop..

Dont Tell and Dont Sell PERIOD is the best advice... you are now and outlaw...

Smart move KS.
Tell us about the phone interview? Did they ask about your business or your still.

Were you careful to only talk about fuel? Did they make the obvious connection?

Free, Cool, I thought it was $50.00. Still cheap for the peace of mind.

If there are no restrictions on how it is handled unless it leaves your property this is the obvious choice we should all make. Our fuel could happen to taste like gin, vodka or whisky.

I remember watching a Mile High vid on youtube with the guy holding his fuel permit.

Maybe the TTB position is as long as you get a permit, we don’t care what you do on your property.

Kentucky shinner · Post by **Kentucky shinner** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:16 pm

mash rookie wrote:
Kentucky shinner wrote:I obtained a Ethanol permit From the TTB for Free. Very easy to do and I can still up to 10,000 gallon per year legally. The problem is, the TTB now has permission to come on to my property at anytime and check me out.
You fill out the forms, send then in and in about 2 months they will call you and do a phone interview. During this interview they explained and I quote" as long as the "Spirits" do not leave my property I don't have to do anything to it. If they leave my property I must put gasoline in it so it is not fit for human consumption."
I obtained this because I am so out in the open running a business that has to do with this hobby. I live in a very very small community and wanted to be able to run my stills at any time and not worry about Johnny law walking in my shop..

Dont Tell and Dont Sell PERIOD is the best advice... you are now and outlaw...
Smart move KS.
Tell us about the phone interview? Did they ask about your business or your still.

Were you careful to only talk about fuel? Did they make the obvious connection?

Free, Cool, I thought it was $50.00. Still cheap for the peace of mind.

If there are no restrictions on how it is handled unless it leaves your property this is the obvious choice we should all make. Our fuel could happen to taste like gin, vodka or whisky.

I remember watching a Mile High vid on youtube with the guy holding his fuel permit.

Maybe the TTB position is as long as you get a permit, we don’t care what you do on your property.

The phone interview they ask if I had ever run a still.... NO
did I have a still .... Yes
have I done research and was I prepared to run my still ... YEs
What was I going to to with what I produced....... Use it in my mower... Hey larry you just have to put some top cylinder lube in the fuel.. we did in our race car years ago.
Why did want the permit.... ....To run my stills and test new designs. I told them I was a still manufacturer
Where was I going to store my fuel..... In my shed
Was my still going to be operated in a separate building from my home..... Yes
It was really pretty general stuff, They did speak of it as spirits not fuel which really surprised me.
I cant remember the rest nothing in particular stands out.

Home Distiller

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