Continuous distillation flute?

We don’t condone the use of Continuous Stripping stills as a method of running 24/7 as this is a commercial setup only .
Home distillers should never leave any still run unattended and Continuous strippers should not be operated for longer periods than a Batch stripping session would typically be run to minimise operator fatigue..

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azeo
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by azeo »

keep going M-R, room for all ideas here especially pics and howtos. :) Even practical investigations that don't work out still tell a story! Who would have thought that flute building could lead to other things, though, I guess knowing that most stillers are tinkerers in various ways, not so surprising! Flutes really have been a catalyst, so much activity! hard to keep up with! Thanks OD and the team, all involved in various ways.

Great to see cm make a comeback in the form of dephleggys, always had good results with cm and enjoyed the fact that valving could be at a conveient position in the water lines. Is there any special reson I've missed for a lot of the new dephlegs being shotguns instead of coils? Built a few stainless shotguna a few years ago, and they werer quite satisfying to put together, but did choke a bit when driven very hard, and ended up thinking dephlegs/reflux coils might be a bit easier... although they too have their own special techniques! amazing to see what's being done on the forum
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

Still thinking about this concept,
it occurs to me that if I can not figure out how to remove heads effectively it could be a great design for making fuel.

I am pretty sure that I can make the constant feed work. That is key for the design to work. Start at the bottom and work up.

The electric element concept makes it much safer to run and cheaper. A cut out switch will add safety too. Over limit switch?

A small scale, say two inch column could theoretically produce in the quantities necessary for fuel production. Using heads adds to production.

I am not sure if this would work with two inch though. Adding cool wash in a small diameter may be too disruptive to temperatures. ??????

I can start with cheap beer from the store for testing.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by rad14701 »

mash rookie, a 2" - 4" continuous column could very easily produce viable quantities of fuel ethanol for personal use - but only if enough raw fermentables can be sourced, fermented, and the byproducts disposed of within environmental regulations... It is when continuous distillation on a small scale is entertained for potable spirits that things start going all wonky, with the exception of primary stripping prior to a batch run secondary... There are just too many variables to be considered for the average home distiller with limited time, money, and theoretical background, to bother with...

Now that doesn't mean that some people may not try and I would applaud their efforts in doing so... Scale versus practicality... I know many people in my area who have oil wells on their property - some even in their front yards... But they don't have a refinery in their garage or in a outbuilding where they produce their own petroleum products because it just wouldn't be practical... And we won't even entertain the safety issues associated with such an endeavor... The point I'm making is practicality...

If someone wants to build a continuous column to produce enough ethanol to mow their lawn every week, more power to them... But they'll probably be too busy making the next batch to have any free time to watch the grass grow between mowings...
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

Rad, I agree that fuel production on any scale practical for use would be a huge undertaking.

My point was that even though it may not work out as intended someone may find value in my efforts for fuel production on a small scale.
Even if it just starts another idea or answers a question positively or negatively.

(kind of encouraging myself forward rather than being discouraged)

There are lots of folks looking at alcohol for fuel.

These are just all ideas, thoughts, concepts, and dialog.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by LWTCS »

mash rookie wrote:(kind of encouraging myself forward rather than being discouraged)
Naw,, that ain't happening.
Perhaps remarks are made that sound discouraging to some,,,but sound more practical to others.

I'll go out on a limb and say that everyone who is passionate about building would love to see something like this executed.

But unless someone ultimately puts heat to copper..........
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by azeo »

yeah, definiteley, heat will have to be put to copper! On the fuel group, people seem to have successfully (or to their satisfaction) converted the C803 to continuos operation, although for beverage use a few more things need to be considered.

The first things to look at are feed control, boiler heating methods and control, bottoms extraction..

With the continuous stuff, there are especially issues with reboiler overflow control/non siphoning/side-stream extraction etc, heating without caking or burning if direct heated, steam generation/control if indirect, and constant feed flow/pressure/control etc to look at. Once a working model for these is developed, work can proceed on stripping and rectification columns, reflux mechanisms etc.

Thought's I've had the other day related to racing cars may help I think. They have a fuel cell (fermentor), a lifting pump (mash pump), swirl-pot (beer-well), and then a regulated pressure pump plus injector rail/s (feed pump, feed injector and control valve). Maybe overcomplicating it, or it may be adding complexity to make other "things" easier - don't know yet! Finding food grade stainless pumps may be the issue, although there seem to be such suitable pumps in the wine and beer industry. "Thin" mash may not be an issue, but thick mash, although it can be stripped (and is stripped commercially) has a few more things to deal with.

Having a gravity fed output from the "beer-well" would simplify matters though, just using a mash pump to lift to a height that gives enough head for the maximum flow desired, and a constant pressure/head for a simple valve to control flow rate. If a float switch used to keep beer-well head constant, feed rate can be fairly contsant. Saves on another feed pump too.

So with continuous still, there is another mechanism for control besides cm, lm, vm, and pm (power control), and that is fm - feed management. For a given power/steam input, there will be a range (hopefully reasonably broad in a favourable design) over which the feed rate is optimum. Not enough, and the reboiler wil be running dry, and yield % goes down in stripped vapor, too much and the other obvious things happen such as boiler being cooled too much, bottoms not being stripped enough etc, column being overloaded etc. The "nose" should be reasonably broad though - again it's a matter of putting torch to metal..

A 2" packed column would be a useful small scale to play with, although 2.5" gives that much more room for varibility and vapor handling. You may be looking at around 1-1.5kW (may be a bit less with full insulation and feed pre-warming) in the reboiler for these. More power would allow higher feed rate, but off course everthing needs to be proportionally sized.

Plated in these sizes (2") can be fiddly, although quite a few have done it now - not sure of the "power" handling capability for this size. Packed columns though, are not reccommended for continuous feed except for very well filtered, low-foaming washes. "Channeling" can be a problem in packed columns too, so a "feed spreader", or high-pressure "misting" jet would be important.

A 4" bubble cap plate column for thin mash stripping, or a 4" weir dam perforated plate stripper should be handy sizes, the lack of "dumping" and ability to turndown feed and power rates being advantages of the bubble cap, and thick mash handling being being one advantage for the perf plate. For both, the ability to handle foaming volume in the direct mash fed stripper (hence the large size, maybe even 5-6" may be required, despite the possible vapor imbalance, if mash is really foamy) will be important. Dont' know how well an antifoaming agent would work here, but no doubt there is information out there, and it may help improve the size balance.

Above the feed stripper, another plated stripper (how many plates I wonder.. 4?) could be used to account for foaming, proteins etc, and to strip the bulk of water and fuesls, and to simplify things after that, a packed column would be ideal as a rectifier. A 2.5" here should be fine, and in these diameters, enough rectification should be available in a reasonable height to allow a single column setup, without the further difficulties of "split" columns, despite their convenience.

Two ways to deal with heads - take the stripped/rectified spirit and redistil in a batch still making desired cuts, and the other way is to regard the "continuous" still as a batch continuous (which it would be anyway unless 24/7 automated!), and collect enough runs to use it as a de-methyliser column, and the bottoms draw would be pure ethanol, assuming that full rectification had already been performed, otherwise it would be a profile of water, fusels, congeners etc. There would be opportunity for draw off at various plates to investigate profiles if "flavoured" washes used, getting a bit technical though compared to simple distilling! Mind you, that's the kind of thing plated columns allow....

While calcs may be nice to verify certain things, like with many builds, it's a matter of mocking up some prototypes and seeing how they go, checking the parameters in real situations etc. With easy and smooth control of feed rate, relfux, and boiler energy etc, a few calcs to help put one in the right ball-park, it's down to real-life results then. One almost needs to be a fairly experienced engineer, chem engineer, and existing practitioner etc to be able to account for everything of importance without building, and even they still prototype....

For testing, one doesn't even need to ferment, as suggested cheap beer or wine could be used, another thing that could be done is mix industrial alcohol/meths with water, add a little iso-propyl, dash of acetone say, and one has a medium that the composition is very well known, and can be used over and over again. A "cleaner" mix may be desired for a beverage still though, although same principle can apply for prototyping withouts lots of fermenting.

I need to start building too, it's still all conjecture until one finds practical ways to build the kit... ! Not going to have the chance for a while though, so I would be keen to see anyone else get into it :)

Rads right about the scale of fuel type production being a problem in an urban environment - it can be done, but takes a bit (lot!) of planning, plus regulatory, safety and stillage disposal matters to attend to. This is where visiting fuel forums woud be worthwhile if thinking about making more "fuel" than required for a lawnmower, and why co-op, rural/industrial and more business like ventures are used.

Especially matching feedstock sources and volume, production volume capability etc to desired demand. Some of the best feedstocks are sugary wastes from soft drink companies (for cost), this reduces processing energy, stages and effort (compared to starch), and the stillage is "thin", but full of yeast for backslop nutrients, and the balance useful for feediing veggie gardens, lawns etc. Other local food-wastes could be good, such as fruit, bread etc.

Corn/starchy type feedstock wastes/stillage also good for the compost and veggie gardens, and apparently, ddgs, and dwgs are really good for corn growing (and maybe sweetcorn??!) too, so their are possibilities for handling larger amounts of organinc waste in smallinsh environments if plants, compost, soil or possibly hydroponics can be involved. Cattails make good water remediation plants and can be grown in split drums etc, so another possibility.

However, I'm going off-topic a bit here, and this is more towards the fuel section.....

One thing of interest to look at is industrial and ecological symbiois, perhaps a bit of a fancy name for common sense integration ideas, but a good model to use when thinking about efficiencies, and ways of re-using energy and effort,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_symbiosis, plenty more exmaples/info on the net.

Good luck, best thing to do on here is take any practical advice on board, try different ideas, even against practical advice is fine, but unlike others who come and go on a fairly regular basis without building anything or without previous applied and/or closely enough related knowledge, but argue ad-infinitem, report back some results, everyone loves results! Quite often things can be made to work, sometimes it's an easy matter, other times it's a complicated contrivement only suitable for the those suitably interested! Room for all here, traditional, and leading edge both.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by LWTCS »

azeo wrote:Good luck, best thing to do on here is take any practical advice on board, try different ideas, even against practical advice is fine, but unlike others who come and go on a fairly regular basis without building anything or without previous applied and/or closely enough related knowledge, but argue ad-infinitem, report back some results, everyone loves results! Quite often things can be made to work, sometimes it's an easy matter, other times it's a complicated contrivement only suitable for the those suitably interested! Room for all here, traditional, and leading edge both.

There ya go.. Really well put azeo. :clap:
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by Barney Fife »

It wasn't very long ago that everyone kept telling us that plated columns would not work at our hobby levels, and nobody dared to even try because the common knowledge was that it would not work, since that was what was always repeated.

Then one day I went ahead and tried a passive plated column by modifying my old BOK(my simple slant-plate column), and reported back, here, on how well it worked. Old Dog then came out into the open to say that he'd been thinking of scaling down a commercial plated column, and with my success showing that this definitely -could- work at hobby still scales, he put the flame to copper, and what we now call "flutes" evolved rather quickly from there. All because at least two of us we stubborn enough to try, anyhow, what we'd been constantly told would fail.

The internet has spawned a whole generation of "Wikipedia experts", as I call them. These are people who know everything there is to know about any given subject, because they've read up on it, or will read up on it to answer someone's question. These people usually don't have much of, if any, hands-on experience with the question that was posed, but rather, they have excellent Google searching and Wiki reading skills. They often fail to use what they read in the proper context, or are simply repeating already common knowledge, much of which is out of date. And then others will repeat this bad or out of date "knowledge" as "fact" because they read it here and there, thus, it must be true.

The internet is allowing a very rapid spread of knowledge because it allows everyone to share what they know and what they are learning, in real time, but the above-mentioned "Wiki Experts" are a very real distraction.

All that to say, carry-on and go forth, my friend! Put the flame to the copper, and get back to us with what you find, and we'll hash it out and refine it, and in no time, someone else will put the flame to his copper, too, and then we'll have two working models to refine, and from there, two others will chime-in with their builds, and then they'll be four, and then eight, and then.... The first plated columns/flutes that OD and I built bare no resemblance to what we have just a couple/three year later. It's called evolution, but for evolution to happen, we must first start. So, start!

As for separating heads and tails, you'll need product take-offs at different points of the column. the heads take-off will be above the hearts take-off, and the tails take off will be below, or simply returned to the kettle. On my simple slant plate column, I was most definitely separating the heads and tails from the hearts, and doing it much more effectively than I am now with my 3" bubble plate column, so it can be done, and done well, even on a 2" setup. Call it a fractionating column if you want to, because that is what it is.

And yes, I do believe a continuous flute is very viable at our hobby levels!
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

WOW.

Thank you Azeo and Barney for the well thought out and positive responses.

I will put flame to copper here.

Lest you guys think I am all talk. I am loading pictures of my flute into my PC as I type and will post them as soon as I get them resized and ready to go.

Look for the post in column distillation and design section titled “MY SEXY GIRL”

MR
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by azeo »

#1 Barney.. :) Sorry I wasn't "around" much to help support the flute cause, as I was (and am ) a strong supporter and believer in the possibility and idea (now proven), and other ideas too....

Naw MR, knew it's not all talk, we can tell the difference between those looking for ideas, inspiration, encouragement, co-operation etc, even a bit of debate sometimes (debate is good! esp if doors left "open", even better!), and more transient burley throwers...

strong opinions can certainly be respected, any really, and especially if they are are backed up with practical exp like Barneys et al. Sometimes it can be hard for even true experts, as well as armchair experts, to find their ideas do not hold sway immediately in an established group, and instead of taking the time to co-operate in a project for the beneifit of all such as OD, KS, Barney etc do/have done, or help with data or papers, an experiment or two, (such as a few chemists have done), or quietly (or even fairly "loudly"!) work away on something while sharing key reults etc (like most others), waste energy elsewhere. Sometimes they do come around.... and all the better. So yeah, forge ahead!

A working flute is a darn good start, will provide great experience building and operating, a useful distilling tool capable of a complete range of traditional and more neutral spirits, and a great basis for all sorts of experiments, modifications etc, *and* some product to boot. Some "modular" joins at either end will also allow it to be easily modified for new ideas, and also become part of further investigations into continuous or highly rectified batch systems too, without duplicating the entire kit before some useful results found.

I've had something similar on the backburner for years, might just be stirred up enough, and have the need and time July onwards to revive the project! Go for it MR, as barney says its the catalyst of someone going out there to do it, break the mold etc, then the evolution of ideas and iterative refinement with others that creates something new, achievable and repeatable. :)
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by azeo »

oh, & ta LT..... :D
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by airhill »

Aside from the fact I described a working continuous still (albeit for producing neutral) on page one; as far as pumps go for feeding the wash I would suggest a peristaltic pump on a geared down stepper motor. They are extremely accurate self priming pdp pumps and the stepper motor would allow electronic control without an extra valve. They are used in the food industry as the silicone hose peristaltic action means no throughput comes in contact with the rest of the pump.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by azeo »

good thought (and that was a good description and lead too on pg1 btw, must check it out again, riku's site?), and they turn up cheap to from time-time on auctions/2nd-hand deals etc as well. People have also been known to make their own if handy on the tools. I was hoping a student would design/build one as part of a project a couple of years ago, maybe this year will go better! I'll look at posting any design/building tips etc if anything pans out....
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

Naw MR, knew it's not all talk, we can tell the difference between those looking for ideas, inspiration, encouragement, co-operation etc, even a bit of debate sometimes (debate is good! esp if doors left "open", even better!), and more transient burley throwers...
Thanks for the compliments on my flute Azeo. I still have to build the parrot and actually run it but I find myself thinking again about this project.
I love a challenge. I am going to build a proto type in a few weeks and see what I can come up with.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by hackware »

Was just wondering, if a bunch of stacked T's would be easier to build than cutting and fitting for the glass sights...?
tell me how hard it is to do... tell me how expensive it will be... just don't tell me what i can not do...

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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by rad14701 »

hackware wrote:Was just wondering, if a bunch of stacked T's would be easier to build than cutting and fitting for the glass sights...?
And the cost factor of that would be high... Let alone the complexity of sealing the rounded portions of the T's... Nice thinking but it's not a new idea and already disproven as a viable option... Constant thinking outside the box is what moves this hobby forward so don't stop now...
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

hackware wrote:Was just wondering, if a bunch of stacked T's would be easier to build than cutting and fitting for the glass sights...?
That might work if you can find a nut to thread directly over the T for holding the glass in place. It would not alow much mating surface area.

If you look at my new flute in My Still section titled "MY SEXY GIRL" You will see that I used copper trap adapters from Grainger. Simple and easy to use. I shaped them to fit my column with the bottom of a belt sander in minutes. Hard soldered them on, then drill the hole with a hole saw. I laped the face with a piece of glass and valve lapping compound. My glass fits directly against the copper without a gasket. O rings between the nut and glass allow for even pressure on the glass when tightening the nut.

I like your thinking. It will have me looking closer at two inch tee's when I am at the hardware store.

MR
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by rad14701 »

mash rookie wrote:
hackware wrote:Was just wondering, if a bunch of stacked T's would be easier to build than cutting and fitting for the glass sights...?
That might work if you can find a nut to thread directly over the T for holding the glass in place. It would not alow much mating surface area.
I don't think that part is as much of an issue as the flared portions of the T which make sealing a plate to the column difficult... While you might be able to get them to seal to the short pieces of copper connecting the T's they would be further down from the sightglasses than what you'd really want... All the method suggested does is trade one complexity for another while potentially jeopardizing weight and trueness of the column...
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by hackware »

mash rookie wrote:
hackware wrote:Was just wondering, if a bunch of stacked T's would be easier to build than cutting and fitting for the glass sights...?
That might work if you can find a nut to thread directly over the T for holding the glass in place. It would not alow much mating surface area.

If you look at my new flute in My Still section titled "MY SEXY GIRL" You will see that I used copper trap adapters from Grainger. Simple and easy to use. I shaped them to fit my column with the bottom of a belt sander in minutes. Hard soldered them on, then drill the hole with a hole saw. I laped the face with a piece of glass and valve lapping compound. My glass fits directly against the copper without a gasket. O rings between the nut and glass allow for even pressure on the glass when tightening the nut.

I like your thinking. It will have me looking closer at two inch tee's when I am at the hardware store.

MR
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tell me how hard it is to do... tell me how expensive it will be... just don't tell me what i can not do...

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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

I don't think that part is as much of an issue as the flared portions of the T which make sealing a plate to the column difficult... While you might be able to get them to seal to the short pieces of copper connecting the T's they would be further down from the sightglasses than what you'd really want... All the method suggested does is trade one complexity for another while potentially jeopardizing weight and trueness of the column...
It does get my brain working though. For experimenting on this project it would be sweet if it could be multiple all in one modular sections. Plate, sight glass and drain. Hmmm???

A Tee just might be the ticket. I don’t see attaching the plate being an issue. Solder it in.
Perf, Bubble cap? If I engineer the correct fit, stacking as many modular sections as need should be easy.
Once again simplicity is key. If I have to spend 20 hours on my lathe to make special parts for it to work I may try a different direction.

I am still concerned that a two inch flute would be too easily temperature affected by cold wash making it difficult to stabilize.
Hmmmm........
did ya ever name her...? that's one sweet thang...
Not yet. still taking sugestions.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by LWTCS »

mash rookie wrote:Not yet. still taking sugestions.
What ever ya do,,,,,do not name her Steve,,,,,IMO
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by mash rookie »

LWTCS wrote:
mash rookie wrote:Not yet. still taking sugestions.
What ever ya do,,,,,do not name her Steve,,,,,IMO

LOL. Where the heck did that come from? Steve?????? stil LOL..........
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by hackware »

mash rookie wrote:
LWTCS wrote:
mash rookie wrote:Not yet. still taking sugestions.
What ever ya do,,,,,do not name her Steve,,,,,IMO

LOL. Where the heck did that come from? Steve?????? stil LOL..........
at least when he's typing, he ain't driving... i HOPE...
tell me how hard it is to do... tell me how expensive it will be... just don't tell me what i can not do...

lead, follow, or get out of the way... ankle biters will be kicked...

•*´¯)¸.•*´¯)¤ª"˜¨¯¯¨˜"william..."˜¨¯¯¨˜"ª¤(¯`*•.¸(¯`*•
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Re: Continuous distillation flute?

Post by LWTCS »

hackware wrote: LOL. Where the heck did that come from? Steve?????? stil LOL..........
So you see my point :ebiggrin:

It would be wrong wrong wrong.

Certainly no offense to the people who love the name Steve.
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