Dan's Flute x2, 4" x 5 plate 42" column

[dan]

And the last two pictures.....

[hackware]

damn, your tron work is just like in the lab...

AND u do copper...!

life ain't fair...

good stuff man...

[dan]

damn, your tron work is just like in the lab...

AND u do copper...!

life ain't fair...

good stuff man...

Thank you for the kudos!! I can only do it one way......must be a character flaw of mine.

-Dan

[hackware]

there exists the possibility of me knowing sumthin you don't (yet)...

your idea of using temp sensor in a condenser will only tell you what that temp is, with little relationship to any other variable in the distillation process itself...

now if you were to place two sensors across a condenser's coolant, then you can derive the heat extracted by the condenser (with a known coolant flow rate)...

with known start time, batch volume, batch abv, heat input, heat extracted, AND the temp of vapor below a condenser, you might just have enough information to program some setpoints for a batch process...

extremely interested in where you go on your project...

can't wait till i have my lab set up...

[dan]

there exists the possibility of me knowing sumthin you don't (yet)...

your idea of using temp sensor in a condenser will only tell you what that temp is, with little relationship to any other variable in the distillation process itself...

now if you were to place two sensors across a condenser's coolant, then you can derive the heat extracted by the condenser (with a known coolant flow rate)...

with known start time, batch volume, batch abv, heat input, heat extracted, AND the temp of vapor below a condenser, you might just have enough information to program some setpoints for a batch process...

extremely interested in where you go on your project...

can't wait till i have my lab set up...

HW,

I plan on controlling the temperature of the wash in the boiler....... i.e. set the temp control to 210 degrees and let it bring the column into reflux and then adjust it up or down from there. I will have two temperature gauges in the dephlegmater, one above and one below to give me the actual temp of the top of the column. Remember I have never run a still and have no experience so please do not follow any of my advice. I am only having fun building this contraption so far and will report back at a later date on the results....

-Dan

[sammybear]

HW,

I plan on controlling the temperature of the wash in the boiler.......

To the best of my knowledge, you cannot. The amount of alcohol determines what the temp will be. The excess energy just changes whether or not the boil is slow or fast, the temp will not change until the alcohol content does.

[Barney Fife]

Remember I have never run a still and have no experience

That's obvious to many of us, which is why you've gotten a lot of advice. Yet you continue to ignore it...

Lemme try...

Your wash will come to a boil at a given temperature, which is determined by the wash's contents and atmospheric pressure. Pure water at sea level will boil at 212f, for example. That doesn't mean that you'd be able to choose to run it at 210 or 214. Nope... At 210, you won't get any vapor, and thermodynamics being what they are, you can't force water to 214(at seal level pressure). Once you reach 212 in this example, adding more energy simply makes more vapor and vapor pressure. But the water itself will only go to 212. See where this leads to? Right! Measuring the boiler's temperature is futile; once it has reached a boil, that's it. There will be no vapor until it boils, and then the temperature will not go any higher no matter how much more energy you add. The only change in temperature will come as the ethanol boils off, but this also means that your starting temp will vary with each charge, so you can't set it and forget it, even if there was a reason to(and there isn't). Again, the simple answer is that you need to bring the wash to a boil; you can't choose 2 degrees below boil as that won't put any vapor into the column, and you can't choose 2 degrees higher than boil, because that's impossible to achieve. all you need to be concerned with in the boiler is to bring it to a boil, then control the power input in relation to the ---VAPOR---- temperature in the column. More power into the boiler(after reaching a boil)will not raise the wash's temperature in the boiler, but it will cause more vapor to go into the column more quickly, thus raising the vapor temperature within the column.

There's a lot more to it than this simplified explanation, but suffice it to say that smarter men than you and I have already gone over all of this, for several centuries, and not only in distillation but also in all forms of power engineering, and done all the math for us. I'm all for breaking the rules and striking out against the tried and true, but physics is physics, and on this one, the laws of said physics are pretty damn firm.

The only temperatures worth monitoring are those within the column itself. You are a gifted craftsman; please use your skills and aim your resources where they're necessary and minimize wasted efforts; we'd all hate to see you get frustrated and give up mid-way of the learning curve because you're trying to control, and understand, something that can't and shouldn't be controlled.

[hackware]

Remember I have never run a still and have no experience
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Your wash will come to a boil at a given temperature, which is determined by the wash's contents and atmospheric pressure.
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The only temperatures worth monitoring are those within the column itself.
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well said...

boiling temperature can not be controlled, but it can be measured, which can tell you where in the distillation process you are in relation to the abv of the batch (wash)...

which is why i tried to get the focus on heat, which CAN be measured and controlled...

[dan]

Thank you all for the edumifucation on thermodynamics!!

Well what the hell do I know..... Like I said I have no experience at this but I can put my thermocouple in the thermowell above or below the dephlagmater and set the temp control to 80c and let the heating element go all out until the column reaches that temp. I do not think I have wasted any time or $$ in my method of control but I know there are more experienced folks out there that can steer me in the right direction. Thank you all again for your constructive posts I am sure we (I) will get it right at some point.

-Dan

[hackware]

just a small bump n da road...

[olddog]

Don't worry Dan, all information is usefull providing you can interpret it to your benefit. I have seen some suggest putting temp guage ports in the boiler, half way up a column to let you know whats coming up the column, in the top plate chamber, and also in the exit water from the dephlegmater, none of these are wrong as long as it means something to you. I personally have a single temp port just under the dephlegmater in the top plate chamber, this lets me know what stage of distillation I am at, as each portion of the distillation evaporates at different temperatures, eg: methanol, ethanol, water etc. Providing the numbers you read on your temp guages mean something to you, you could put as many temp ports as you feel necessary. I make my temp ports from 1/4"tubing and I seal the end that goes in the column to make a blind port which cannot leak if the probe is removed.


OD

[rad14701]

What the temperatures are matters less than how you control it... Any heat/power control needs to be constant and proportional rather than On-Off...

[LWTCS]

Don't worry Dan, all information is usefull providing you can interpret it to your benefit. I have seen some suggest putting temp guage ports in the boiler, half way up a column to let you know whats coming up the column, in the top plate chamber, and also in the exit water from the dephlegmater, none of these are wrong as long as it means something to you. I personally have a single temp port just under the dephlegmater in the top plate chamber, this lets me know what stage of distillation I am at, as each portion of the distillation evaporates at different temperatures, eg: methanol, ethanol, water etc. Providing the numbers you read on your temp guages mean something to you, you could put as many temp ports as you feel necessary. I make my temp ports from 1/4"tubing and I seal the end that goes in the column to make a blind port which cannot leak if the probe is removed.

I pretty much have gotten used to not really knowing what my temps are. I conduct my runs by visual inspection of flow with clear waterlines..collection speed and abv readings at the parrot.

If I had the inclination though, I'd likely set my rig up the way OD describes so that I could more precisely follow the ascent of the last bit a usable alcohol.

[Prairiepiss]

Dan are you making the same heat control setup for your brother? If you are I have one little simple suggestion. Before you send it to him work out all the little details and bugs before you do.


A flute is controlled by varying the cooling flow in the dephlagmater. CM cooling management. Hint hint. Not the boiler heat.

[LWTCS]

A flute is controlled by varying the cooling flow in the dephlagmater. CM cooling management. Hint hint. Not the boiler heat.

That is one way to run. Rockchucker also describes his sweet spot way to run.....

I have 2 favorite ways to run and would say that a heat adjustment is part of the equation..for me anyway.

[dan]

Guys,

I was just trying to build a heat element control that was easy to put together with off the shelf parts and a little bit of cool factor thrown in for good measure and keep the cost reasonable. I can put the temp probe above the dephlagmater or below it or in the boiler or in my mouth for that matter. knowing everything that you guys do where would be the best place in the distillation process to put a temp probe to control the heat in the boiler?? Just don't tell me to put it up my a-- if you know what i mean..... I am a little sensitive Thanks again for all the help. Would it make sense to put a thermowell at the base of my column because the temperature will constantly change throughout the run above and below the dephlagmater based on the abv of the vapor??

-Dan

[dan]

What the temperatures are matters less than how you control it... Any heat/power control needs to be constant and proportional rather than On-Off...

Rad,

That was what I am attempting to do with the temp probe heat control. The set point of the control v.s. actual temp tells the control when to fire up and when to shut down. This keeps your temp at any point in the column/boiler to within +/- 0.2% of a degree. My goal was to be able to set my desired temperature for the best or most efficient reflux and then the best or most efficient take off rate all with a very repeatable temp point instead of power point. maybe I am chasing rainbows...

-Dan

[LWTCS]

The set point of the control v.s. actual temp tells the control when to fire up and when to shut down. This keeps your temp at any point in the column/boiler to within +/- 0.2% of a degree.

Yer not getting it Dan.

[mash rookie]

Guys,

I was just trying to build a heat element control that was easy to put together with off the shelf parts and a little bit of cool factor thrown in for good measure and keep the cost reasonable. I can put the temp probe above the dephlagmater or below it or in the boiler or in my mouth for that matter. knowing everything that you guys do where would be the best place in the distillation process to put a temp probe to control the heat in the boiler?? Just don't tell me to put it up my a-- if you know what i mean..... I am a little sensitive Thanks again for all the help. Would it make sense to put a thermowell at the base of my column because the temperature will constantly change throughout the run above and below the dephlagmater based on the abv of the vapor??

-Dan

Dan,
I have a thermometer in my boiler and in the head chamber above my depllag.

You will make adjustment decisions on your flute using your head temp and your parrot as your guide.

While the temp in the boiler is interesting, it is not of much value. Well, some value.
If you are controlling the boiler heating element with this controller the thermocouple should be placed in the boiler.

I have found (in my limited experience of two runs) that you can drive a flute much faster than other stills if you choose. More power in will put more vapor up the column that a flute can handle.

Running my burner hotter did not change temps much, just ran faster.

I don’t know what the upper limit is. That is when it does not perform correctly because of excessive vapor. It will be fun to learn. The flutes are a hell of a design.
MR

[hackware]

without a real time electronic input of the mash abv (which changes as the process proceeds), there is no way to determine the proper expected temperature of vapor in the column...

therefore, your pid controller will operate as a open loop controller, and will not give you the results you desire...

i've been looking into the requirements for automated mash abv, and the requirements are greater then the distilling process itself... (mixers, level detection, pressure, sensor cleaning, etc...)
("dirty" washes only make things more difficult (ie: "on the grain"))...

the best you can expect from a simple pid controller is to operate in a sliding window mode, which i suspect will be far from ideal...

[arami99]

Keep Up the good work Dan... Building my first still in a few days "Flute Still" as a newbie I really appreciated the photos. I started reading through the messages 2 months ago. Wow what alot of info on so many different types, but I liked the look of the Flute...

[dan]

Making a little progress tonight......

-Dan

[dan]

Last few..... This is in the garage where it will all happen..... This flute will head north in a few days.

-Dan

[mash rookie]

lookin good dan. Fire that baby up!

[The Baker]

Looks as though the first couple of coils of that air-cooled copper tube condenser are high on one side.
You want the product to flow downward all the way, not to pool anywhere.

[dan]

Well I finally fired up the column last night with all of the coolant lines hooked up...... This rig really works!! All five plates stacked up with water starting at the top and working it's way down to the bottom plate and they were bubbling away like crazy. I am going to try running some beer through it as a cleaning run and then on to the UJSSM. When you guys run a vinegar solution through the column to clean it what is your % of water to vinegar and is it better to run some alc through it before you actually consume some of your final product?? Thank you guys for all of your help once again!! This is awesome cool stuff.......

I do need to make my proofing parrot taller before I run the alc..... rookie mistake on my part by not doing the research before I build something....

-Dan

[mash rookie]

Well I finally fired up the column last night with all of the coolant lines hooked up...... This rig really works!! All five plates stacked up with water starting at the top and working it's way down to the bottom plate and they were bubbling away like crazy. I am going to try running some beer through it as a cleaning run and then on to the UJSSM. When you guys run a vinegar solution through the column to clean it what is your % of water to vinegar and is it better to run some alc through it before you actually consume some of your final product?? Thank you guys for all of your help once again!! This is awesome cool stuff.......

I do need to make my proofing parrot taller before I run the alc..... rookie mistake on my part by not doing the research before I build something....

-Dan

I think that I used a 50/50 mix of vinegar than used old feints for the cleaning run. Larry told me not to run beer. Cheap wine or cheap vodka diluted.

[Prairiepiss]

Dan that's a fine piece you've built there. And I would kill for a shop like that.

Here is the still cleaning thread give it a look over. And I used a 4 to 1 water vinegar mix for my cleaning run. I can't remember who posted that mixture but I had seen it multiple times.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=15489

[Wim]

Hello Dan,
let me start of with thanking you for such a good thread.

I must have read it 3 times completely by now. I am planning to build something simmelar as your flute but am doing some more research whether to go with perforation or bubblecap plates. Hence I have some questions:

What size drill did you use for your plate perforations?
Furthermore I would be really interested in the amount of heat you need to put in your kettle to keep your plates filled once you start distilling alcohol.

Regards
Wim

[dan]

Dan that's a fine piece you've built there. And I would kill for a shop like that.

Here is the still cleaning thread give it a look over. And I used a 4 to 1 water vinegar mix for my cleaning run. I can't remember who posted that mixture but I had seen it multiple times.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=15489

PP- Thank you for the thread on cleaning i will check it out!! I have just disconnected everything to make a few adjustments and to have a therm-o-well welded into my keg and to have a 4" flange and riser welded to the top to increase vapor path flow. I will post a few pictures once I get my keg back from the shop. Do you know if anyone has used their keg / boiler as a fermentation tank?? I am going to give it a try with the heating element and therm-o-well. I will be able to set the temperature of the keg to the ideal fermentation temp and it will maintain that temp. Then I can put the column straight on to the keg and move the temp probe to the column and start distillation without having to transfer any liquid. What do you think?? Thank you,

-Dan