Gonna get a beating for this.....

[JavaBen]

I know I'm gonna get a beating for this, but I've got to ask it anyway.....so get in line! You guys are the pros, and I'm coming here to get both my answer and my beating for asking such a dumb question.

I'm admiring some of the column distillers. OldDog's flute looks amazing! But I'm shocked, shocked I say, at the price of copper.

So here's my question:

Since part of the amount of copper used in the construction of a regular column distiller is just to support the column, then if the column could be constructed out of a different (read cheaper) material, then lined with copper foil or very thin sheets (not thick enough to support the weight of a column), would that work OK, assuming there were no leaks between the copper part of the column?

In other words, assuming I used some sort of plastic that could take the temperature of the distillation in the head and at the base (may require some metal to get it above the boiler), and inside of that cheaper-material-plastic, I added an inner liner that was vapor tight, so the plastic would not be touched by the distillate, then it would seem to this distiller-wanna-be that it should work. Maybe PVC with a liner?

And if the PVC wouldn't take the temperatures, then maybe some other cheaper material, such as (gasp, cough, gurgle), aluminum?

OK, sorry for the intrusion. I've been lurking here for a while, and have learned an amazing amount of 'good stuff' while lurking.

BTW - I'm secretly coveting a 'flute'. It looks like a work of art to me - may just mount it on my wall and sit back with a 'Scotch' (is that OK here?) and cigar, and take a deep, long pull of both while admiring.......

JavaBen
North of Atlanta, Georgia, USA

[sammybear]

You would not want a plastic or aluminum in the still, as neither deal with high temp ethanol very well.

Your cheapest bet would be stainless, but that is not a lot cheaper unless you have a way of welding it.

[rad14701]

Nope... It's just not worth the added effort or the risk... You would need a way to have a positive seal on the copper and you cannot solder inside of plastic... You would also have to deal with finding a method of attaching the copper inside the plastic or aluminum... Also, PVC won't withstand the amount of heat needed... I've done the tests just to prove that it gets soft before reaching alcohol vapor temperatures - with water...

Spend your money wisely on the minimal amount of copper and as few fittings as possible... Build a still that will work effectively and safely for a lifetime and whatever it costs will be money well spent...

[Prairiepiss]

To back Rad up on this. I've used boiling water to heat PVC so I could bend it to make bird toys and perches. So I would stick to the norm. As already stated.

[JX8P]

You could do it in theory. Not with PVC though. It will turn floppy in the heat and collapse. In theory you could have success with aluminium or mild steel (!).

If you want an effective way to make sure you were to do it right, just pretend the aluminium/steel is lead. That'd make sure you got a good seal.

Live near an electroplating service? There's an option (again in theory).

Unless you can do it well, the better option to save cash - though it will be slightly more costly than your idea in theory - is...

Stainless Steel! It's fairly cheap, you know - not a whole lot more than the same amount of mild steel - you would probably get off with car exhaust low-grade stainless in fact.

[blanikdog]

There you go, that wasn't a beating was it? You've been listening to nasty rumours.

[blind drunk]

There you go, that wasn't a beating was it? You've been listening to nasty rumours.

Hey, it ain't over yet

[blanikdog]

You are baaaaaaad BD.

[JavaBen]

Well, let me roll over - that side was gettin' a little toasted....

[dougyethanol]

am i going to be the first - if you havent read rule 8 in the rules we live by take a look, and give us an intro in the welcome section.
may help us get you on track.

[NcHooch]

I'm usually the first guy in line to save a lil cash, but when it comes to makin a still you're better off just swallowing the pill and doin' it the tried n true way ... either copper or stainless.

NChooch

[LWTCS]

Well, let me roll over - that side was gettin' a little toasted....

let--me --just --turn -- you---over --my --knee----and--I'll ---tan --your--fanny---beet---red....
Best git before them mean one's make you go and pick your own switch.



there there now...its all over.

[The Baker]

Well, let me roll over - that side was gettin' a little toasted....

let--me --just --turn -- you---over --my --knee----and--I'll ---tan --your--fanny---beet---red....
Best git before them mean one's make you go and pick your own switch.



there there now...its all over.

You are obviously not Australian....
Or if you are you are very, VERY weird!

[LWTCS]

You are obviously not Australian....
Or if you are you are very, VERY weird!

Shit your right....That was really weird......Oy, nevermind..Forget I said that. Forget I said anything.

[dougyethanol]

just incase anyone is wondering, fanny is a different part of the body in australia.

[Smokehouse Shiner]

Stainless Steel! It's fairly cheap, you know - not a whole lot more than the same amount of mild steel - you would probably get off with car exhaust low-grade stainless in fact.

I'm not gonna come out and say for sure that the lower grades of SS won't work for stilling purposes because I'm not a metalurgist and I really don't know. But I would certainly be wary of using it without some thorough testing and research. I know I've got some old ss exhaust tubing that is starting to rust. Seems like asking for trouble. I'd play it safe and use 300 series. If anyone has evidence otherwise I'd be glad to hear it and eat my words.
To address the op's question, besides the fact that it would probably end up costing more trying to rig up the inside of "some other type" of tubing with copper foil or electroplated copper or the like there is a major flaw in the theroy. The need for thicker copper in a still is not simply structural. As alcohol vapor is run through a copper still the copper reacts with the sulphates in the vapor and neutralizes them. Effectively "smoothing out" the finished likker and removing the off tastes the sulphates can lend to it. Through this reaction the copper is slowly "eaten away" and over time the tubing or sheet copper WILL get thinner and thinner. Thus the copper foil or coating would quickly thin to the point that the vapor would be in contact with whatever you decided to coat with it. So sorry a big thumbs down from me. But I think you already knew the answer when you asked. I won't beat you or paddle your fanny though. Even if you ask nicely.

[JavaBen]

Smokehouse Shiner, that was the answer I was looking for, although I didn't realize that was actually the question I was asking. In other words, the fact that copper is being 'lost', thus making it thinner, ultimately makes it impractical.

Thanks!

[Samohon]

You only make a still once, unless your a tinkerer and modification buff, so why not invest in the best possible materials.. You'll pass your still down to your sons or daughters, so why not to use the safest materials you can afford..? I bet if the flute were to be made out of plastics lined with the best copper plate, it would'nt look half as good as its shiny counterpart.

I have made a few Bokakob Slant plates with the following ingredients:

• 1500mm copper column with Easy Flange (OD's method)
• Stainless 3/8" needle valve
• 3/8" x 500mm copper take-off pipe
• ¼" x 200mm double coil
• 2" cap for reflux coil (with Atmosphere vent)
• 2" soft PTFE seal for Easy Flange
• 12" x 3/8" x ¾" Liebig to cool product
• 2 x 2" center rings for column
• 14 SS Scrubbies for packing
• 1 x digital thermometer
• ½" hose connectors for condensers

All they have to do is connect it to a keg. If they are using some other pot as a boiler, I give them a 2" cap connection instead of the Easy Flange.
They cost about £120 ($180US)... Not a big outlay for a still that gives so much in return and every part of the still is safe to use for high temp alc vapour...
You could even source some of the materials at the scrappy and keep the cost down further...

BTW, in Scotland, fanny has another meaning... Maybe an example is in order...
Sailor on lookout for the Titanic: "We've run into an iceberg captain.."
Scottish Captain of the Titanic: "No, YOU have run into an iceberg, ya fanny.."

[The Baker]

just incase anyone is wondering, fanny is a different part of the body in australia.

Sort of, to use the nautical, fore instead of aft....

And always quoted in the feminine gender......

[myles]

There are very good reasons why one option is to construct the boiler section in stainless steel and the vapour path in copper. That works very well indeed and gives you the best of both worlds. Even more so if you can find a suitable stainless container already built at a reasonable price.

If you look at an all copper still, then usually there is a much bigger proportion of copper ( and hence cost ) in the boiler section compared to the vapour path.

[olddog]

I bet if the flute were to be made out of plastics lined with the best copper plate, it would'nt look half as good as its shiny counterpart.

I Just could not imagine it built out of plastic.

OD

[hackware]

actually, i'm building a pvc still column out of some old junk parts...

just to get my future setup straight in my mind...

and NO, i ain't ever gonna fire it up...

(might post some pix on april fool's day tho...)

[Bagasso]

I would think that an aluminum column would be safe to use. Where aluminum isn't a good idea is in the boiler because of the acidic pH of the wash which pits the aluminum.

As for SS could a column be put together without welding? Just pressure and teflon or flour paste?

As far as sulfates go, which always comes up, a couple copper bits in the boiler or a copper scrubby in the column should help but you have to have the problem to begin with. Can't neutralize sulfates if there ain't any in the wash.

[HeadCase]

Check the rates for metals in your area. This day and age Copper is nearly gold. But you can do a lot with Stainless.
http://www.scrapmonster.com/scrap-price ... -scraps/18
http://www.scrapmonster.com/scrap-price ... -scraps/34

[hackware]

I would think that an aluminum column would be safe to use.
.
.
.

how did you come to think that...?

[JX8P]

I would think that an aluminum column would be safe to use.
.
.
.

how did you come to think that...?

It would be the case, from a practical view. Same reasons why we know other things to be safe and others not so safe.

[mash rookie]

Okay, Gotta jump in here. There are other materials but copper is the most durable and easiest for the typical hobbyist.
I have two designs floating in my head that I am going to build this fall. Maybe three

Design 1,
I am going to build a two inch continuous still. It will have an element in the bottom with a float and bleed control for regulating flow rate. I have not decided weather it will be plated or stuffed. I still need to figure input location and take off locations in an attempt to do real fractioning. Not convinced it will be hugely successful but should provide interesting information about the potential. This is where the real beating's will begin.

Design 2
Here is your alternative to copper and the coolest looking one yet. It will be a 2 ½” flute plate, copper tree with a Pyrex glass exterior column. You will be able to see all plates from all angles as they function. This one will blow people away.
The glass is much cheaper than copper and is pretty damn strong. You still cant smack it around with a hammer but Why Would You?

Crazy idea 3
Air cooled pot still. Vertical pot still head with 12-20 tight spiraled 1/4" worms coming out of the top like a bad hair day. Slowly turning down and artfully joining together at parrot. (or a small Liebig if nec)

MR.
Myles can I have your pile of copper to play with?

[Dnderhead]

first 1/2 is about 5x the area of 1/4
water is about 1,000x as efficient as air.
so your going to need a very large air cooled condenser to do the same as water.

[myles]

first 1/2 is about 5x the area of 1/4
water is about 1,000x as efficient as air.
so your going to need a very large air cooled condenser to do the same as water.

Have to agree with this. Have you noticed that most air cooled stills come from places with very cold winters and are used at LOW boiler power. Suitable for a particular style of reflux still but speed is not high on the agenda.

I have even used air cooled liebigs before now in sub zero conditions, but they are not as efficient as the same condenser with water in the jacket instead of cold air.

[Bagasso]

I would think that an aluminum column would be safe to use.

how did you come to think that...?

If you are thinking about E85 in cars corroding aluminum parts then you have to remember that there is no water in those systems.

Trends in electrochemistry and corrosion

the role of water in the formation of passive films by showing that water can act as an accelerator or an inhibitor of the corrosion process depending on the materials and environments. Persianteva et al. have investigated the corrosion of aluminum, copper and steel in ethanol with different water contents and have obtained a complex dependence of the corrosion rate. In the case of steel and copper the corrosion rate goes through a maximum at 50%, on the contrary, the corrosion rate of aluminum is minimum at a water content of 30-50%

The pH of ethanol is pretty close to 7 so if most of what is going through the column is water and ethanol then I don't see where this would be acidic. If you flood your column with wash it would be a different story but even if that was the case it isn't going to make an aluminum column fail.

Temperature also plays a part but in our stills as the temp goes up so does the water content in the vapor. I have read that aluminum is good for biofuel storage up to 200ºF (93ºC). At that temperature the vapor in the column would be around 55% so not very corrosive to the column, if the above is correct, and as the temp rises the concentration drops so it should be less corrosive still.

Then there's empirical evidence like Aluminum pot?

I've used an aluminum pressure cooker for a year now and have made tons of shine in it. Aluminum pressure cookers are a good bit thicker than aluminum pots.

To answer the common criticisms of aluminum:

Pitting: I have seen not pitting in my aluminum boiler whatsoever, but this is probably because its a pressure cooker, they are made a lot thicker

Leeching out stuff: acidic washes just keep the aluminum clean, the owners manual even recommends scrubbing the inside with lemon juice and baking soda to keep it clean. As far as leeching out aluminum goes, well its going to stay in the pot. Heavy metals or any metals for that matter do not carry over into the steam, they stay in the pot. If you don't believe me, google distilling water.

All that being said, stainless steal is a superior metal, it is stronger and way more resistant to wear, much harder to drill or cut.

But I have had zero problems with my aluminum boiler, zero