Im not seeing ethanol as a cheaper fuel source...help?

[SWIM]

I would love to run my bike on ethanol, its got a carb and I can easily change the fuel lines, jets and gaskets, but I am not seeing how to make ethanol cheaper. The cheapest recipe I have found is:

10 cans condensed 100% grape juice
7lb sugar
1 cup yeast

and it yields around 1.5 to 2 gallons which would be a fuel cost of over $5 per gallon...what am I doing wrong?!?!?!??!

any help is greatly appreciated
THANKS!

[blind drunk]

Those 10 cans of grape juice could be put to a better use ...

[guittarmaster]

I wouldn't think ethanol would be any cheaper than gasoline/ gallon unless you grew the corn and did everything yourself... but then the expenditure of time might make it an undesirable alternative. It tends to work alright on a large scale because farmers who have had a poor crop can sale their corn to the ethanol plant for slightly more $$$ than if they sold it to the grain feed suppliers (if you can buy grain for <$10/50lb bag imagine what they feed store pays the farmer for it ....)The corn the ethanol plants use is bought at such a cheap price and large volume that the labor and time doesn't affect them.

I dont' see self manufactured ethanol fuel being worth the effort if measured against an economic measure until the extraction and engineering of bacteria that break down cellulose and other plant fibers becomes more efficient. Here is in interesting article about it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 113810.htm

sorry If I'm telling you something you already know. However, It's a fascinating field of research that i'm very interested in... Just imaging using a cellulase extract and adapting a grain neutral recipe to convert grass clippings instead of starch! What would it matter grass or barley if rendered neutral!

[azeo]

not doing anything wrong, just do some homework!
knowledge is self-empowerment,

Check the older links in the fuel section in this forum for ME news, journey to forever, farm type and small scale operations and stills etc

visit a library if you have one nearby, or online
for books such as;

http://astore.amazon.com/stillcooker-20
http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/books.html


Search for good material, for example
http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/multi.html

Economic Prospects for Small-Scale Fuel Alcohol Production, oldie but useful
http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/3 ... 010177.pdf


Suppport such as;
http://www.sustainabletechsys.com/
http://www.sustainabletechsys.com/Products.html
http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/vendor.html
http://acbagnetwork.ning.com/

http://www.miniplant.de/en/index.php?rubric=50

http://www.miniplant.de/en/index.php?rubric=54

ideas to scale down;
http://stillenergysolutions.com/2010/un ... solutions/

http://easyenergysystems.com/productfeatures.php
http://easyenergysystems.com/howitworks.php
http://easyenergysystems.com/support.phphttp://biofuelsdigest.com/bdigest/2011/ ... di-arabia/
http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/772 ... e-on-waste

ideas to integrate, search on "industrial symbiosis"

after homework, ask more questions ...
have a play with beverage scale feedstocks and production, get a feel for the process, treat it as an investment in skills and due diligence....
get an understanding of diy efi.. (eg Megasquirt) better than playing with jetting once one has ticked that box.

for "cheap" alcohol, one needs cheap feedstock, cheap energy sources, efficient processes, enzymes etc, and sustainable operation, in many senses of the word
However, measures of independence with by-products could be worth more than just the capex and opex $

[rad14701]

The one issue that rarely gets mentioned whenever switching to ethanol is discussed is the fact that the same vehicle running on ethanol gets fewer miles per gallon than when running on gasoline... So even if you could produce the ethanol cheaper than you could purchase gasoline you will end up requiring more and this variable needs to be factored into any cost savings calculations...

Don't quote me on this but the mileage difference is somewhere in the 25% - 30% range, from memory... That means that a vehicle that gets 20 MPG on gasoline will only get ~15 MPG on ethanol... E85 itself yields roughly 15% lower MPG than straight 87 octane gasoline...

[Odin]

Rad,

I find I have the same problem. When I run my internal motor on alcohol, somehow my milage goes down. Maybe it is because the shortes trajectory between two dotts, somehow isnt the straightest anymore? ...

Odin.

PS: it is of to see Cowboys&Aliens. 17th year wedding anniversary today. What better way to celebrate? Shit, did I really write that? I must be getting old.

[Dnderhead]

from my understanding alcohol can git about the same mileage as gasoline.
but the engine have to be made for it.then if it is setup for alcohol it
will no longer run a gas. so if you modify for efficient use of alcohol
you will be limited to the millage you can go.as you no longer can stop at a gas station.

[MuleKicker]

Ethanol is not cheaper than gas. The only reason it is when you buy it at the station is because the governmnet subsidizes it. You will get worse fuel economy with etoh because there is less energy in it per volume. Forget the grape juice wash if your going to burn it, your bike wont taste the difference. If you want to make it cheaper, look for free sources to ferment. depending on your area, you should be able to come up with some food waste or something. Think of it as a hobby, not a big money saver.

[Titus-a-fishus]

The consumer is looking at cost only

But we should be looking at the difference between a fossil fuel and a renewable resource.
We can grow corn etc until the sun stops shining
Oil is finite.

The real cost is to the planet not just our hip pocket

Which brings us onto the 10% of the planet is using 90% of it's resources
Yes I know those figures are bogus...
the point is we use more than our fair share of the resources on earth.


TAF

[azeo]

it's a strange thing etoh, or E85, anecdotally, at certain times of the year in certain areas, some people on fuel forums have reported regularly obtaining better mileage than gas, or at least not nearly the expected difference. Some explanations fit etoh's characteristics of greater latent heat of vaporisation, higher octane, combustion chracteristics, greater spark advance capabaility for max best torque (ie knock resistance), and altitude/climate performance, but in some situations, the apparent better than expected mileage has been harder to find a good explanation for.

It does come down to ffv's being a compromise, and without high compression, and possibly cyl head design, and inlet manifold mods that I have heard are carried out for Brazillian "Total flex" vehicles, the potential higher efficiency of etoh is not fully utilized, so many variables such as ambient temp, summer-winter blending, climate, altitude, driving needs, style etc. play a greater part. Thermal efficiencies for etoh dedicated engines have been reached approaching that of diesel, but then as Dh says one can't drop back to gas, so the necessity/ability to run two quite different fuels trims back these potential gains.

At least a motorbike can have a reasonably small fuel demand, so quite a bit of fun can be had with a reasonabley small (or large beverage) set-up, as Mulekicker says, hobby level! If the interest is there - go for it! no substitute for practical work after some background exploration to save many wrong turns. Longer term work and thorough understanding may lead to some economic options being found.

One thing to watch out for with bikes, or any carbed vehicle, most carbs are made of zinc, or some such muck alloy, which really hate alocohol, especially home-made. Even with careful purification, ph adjustment, and various comercial anti-corrosive additives, leaving the bowl full for any length of time results in jelly, sludge and white powder and general corrosion etc forming around jets, float jets, in the bowl etc. So carbs have to be drained if left sitting and not used every day, unless designed for methanol/ethanol, and even if they are, I think the racers reccommendation is to drain and flush after use and before temporary or longer storage.

The key is to see etoh as a *potentially* cheaper alternative, for the time when the price of a barrell of oil , or a supply chain crisis makes it so.... trying to make it "economically" at home for transport while gas is competively or attractively priced is a hard road to travel. Good to be prepared though. I'd be 99.9% certain that 99.9% of the xperienced distillers on here could turn their hand to smallish scale home fuel production if the need arose.... and suitable feedstock available in sufficient volume - or could consult to a neighborhood/rural project.

[DAD300]

MK is right on...ethanol is not cheaper to produce than gas!

All kinds of political games are running to sell the public that ethanol is going to save our petroleum based society. If it were cheaper, we would all be driving alcohol based engines.

Corn to ethanol is being produced for several reasons; it's better than paying farmers to NOT grow corn, it raises the price of feed corn so that we spend less subsidies on corn, we need the fuel industry to find ways to convert to and use ethanol for use when the petroleum runs out or goes beyond economic feasibility,...when the price of ethanol and gas cross over.

So we subsidize a new corn to ethanol industry, just to establish the industry for possible future need.

Well Titus, corn is renewable. Ethanol is not! It currently takes more energy to produce ethanol than the ethanol can provide. When the pertro runs out, how will you power your stills to make ethanol? Solar? The solar and wind power industries are failing because they have not proven economical. Using solar and wind is currently a niche and costs more than being on the grid. As petro prices climb, solar and wind industries will get stronger.

Economics, always follow the money. We pay about $3.50 usd for a gallon of gasoline that currently cost about $1.40 leaving the refinery. A gallon of Ethanol is leaving the refinery at about $2.80 a gallon.

The "this product contains up to 10% ETHANOL" sticker you see at the pumps is the amount of ethanol the feds estimated, they can get the refineries to add to the auto fuel before it added an unreasonable cost at the pump. So the 10% ethanol added to the gasoline cost us at least 35 cents, plus we subsidize the ethanol fuel industry with our Federal taxes.

If the corn were free, the process to make ethanol, still costs more than double the petro fuel it might replace .

We use more than our pro rata share of petro fuel, but we also produce and export more than our pro rata share of food. Oil exporting countries sell oil so that they can eat imported food! I've been to Saudi, Kuwait, Bahrain, Egypt, Nigeria,...they don't grow S#@*!

[MuleKicker]

I think I remember reading somewhere that it takes close to 2 gallons of ethanol to make a gallon. That is from the energy needed to harvest the crop to the heat needed to distill it. Not to mention the millions and millions of gallons of ground water used to produce it. I do like the idea of using a renewable resource but we have to be realistic here. Ethanol production is not self sustainable.

Azeo, you have some very good points about efficiency.

[Prairiepiss]

Eventualy it will be cheaper to produce ethanol. When we deplenish the oil. And you all know it will happen. Maybe not in our lifetime but it will. So somethin needs to be done? Solar and wind power may not be economical now but when we have nothing to run the power plants we will need something. And its all just like anything else. If they don't work at it it will never get any better. We will just end up with nuclear power plants riddleing the countryside. And more toxic radioactive waste then we will know what to do with.

Sometimes we should look at what's best for the long haul. Not what's cheapest to get us there now.

Oh and don't get me started on electric vehicles. The technology held back from them is astonishing. And irritates me to no end. When I have electric forklifts that run for an 8 hour shift on one charge and they can't make a car with a 100 mile range. Something is seriously being held back. I will shut up now. Rant over.

[SWIM]

My bike gets 80mpg on gas [2001 honda cmx250x] and I would LOVE to go green, but I'm in college and it's cost prohibitive for the most part. I am building a sustainable house on top of a trailer so I can tow it with me when I move. I would LOVE to power the vehicle using ethanol or some other green alternative because of the economic impact it would have. Solar power, solar hot water, solar heating, wind power, solar pasteurizing toilet, the whole shebang. As for the distilling process, you could make it much more energy efficient by using a trough mirror and a copper pipe boiler.

here is a video of a trough mirror making steam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLQ4EtWV ... ure=relmfu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

you could modify the design to have a mash drain pipe and a steam out pipe, run the steam through a thumper and voila!like the guy says in the video you could position the trough in an east to west layout and have fairly constant sun from 11am until 3pm. The system could also be set up to run automatically fill a giant hopper with filtered mash, then have a pipe going from the mash tank to the boiler [the tank being higher to take advantage of gravity] so all you would need to do is set your flow [or get an automatic timer valve] and make sure your output tanks don't fill up. the temperature could be controlled by either shading part of the pipe or increasing the flow. The drain tank from each day's run could be reused in successive runs until there is no more alcohol left.


my questions are: What could I use to make the mash cheaply? Could I use grass clippings? tree sap? poisonous berries from trees and such? Would I have to add yeast and sugar or could I get away with just yeast, or even nothing at all and just letting it ferment?

and what about methanol? bamboo grows extremely rapidly and would be a great crop to make something from if you could. sugar cane sounds like the ideal crop but I am in no place to grow it.

what is your input?
THANKS!

[Dnderhead]

nothing you make will be portable. it takes 500gal of mash to make 40-50 gallons of fuel.
that is not something your going to put on top of a trailer.
as of rite now your choices are starch or sugars,the enzymes of braking down cellulose
is not available to the consumer as yet if ever.

[SWIM]

I don't need the unit to fit on a trailer, I can pack it up when I move and unpack it and set it up when I get there. I can make a lid for the 500 gallon tank big enough to put the rest of the setup inside. What would be a decent crop to grow on minimal land? potatoes?

[Dnderhead]

I dont under stand what you want,it will take a acre or more just to make one 500gallon ferment.then you say you have no land,you cant just plant in air or on others land.
potatoes are not a good choice .grains are the best. for vegetables here is a list that mite help.

http://www.peter-thomson.co.uk/foodc/fo ... _list.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[SWIM]

I am in no place to grow sugar cane, it's way too dry here. I am looking for a cheap source of mash ingredients.

[rad14701]

SWIM, it is up to you to do your research and it's fairly obvious that you aren't going to be able to grow the raw materials you will need for this idea... You will need to find an inexpensive or free source... Also remember that you will need an environmentally friendly way to dispose of your byproducts... If this was a simple task everyone would be doing it... Ever stop to wonder why more people don't chase this dream...???

[Dnderhead]

Small time fuel producing mite be OK for a farmer that is raising grain or some such thing,
in spring they plant,then a slow time waiting for crops to grow,then fall harvest,
during the "unproductive " time they could produce fuel. this is not for someone that has a9-5 , your going to spend all your spare time producing fuel. its going to take a day of mashing, then another to distill.so you mite mash Sunday..ferment during the week then Saturday distill,Sunday mash again.so if working 7 days a week dont fit your schedule its probably not for you..

[azeo]

I am in no place to grow sugar cane, it's way too dry here. I am looking for a cheap source of mash ingredients.

<sigh> another one just wanting answers without the sweat off their own back. you've been given a lot of pointers, now you need to go looking for yourself. We don't even know your location or circumstances in detail so how can detailed advice be given... no one is going to write a detailed consultation document just for their own pleasure - you gotta follow the various links throughout this fuel section and see for yourself what may be viable to investigate - information and enzymes are out there, including cellulases in the links I gave just in this topic, let alone others in the fuel section. Like I said, please do the research, then come back, the questions you are asking can be answerered by yourself with a bit of effort and homework. Without your own research, answers won't be understood, or can just easily deter efforts... if you're at college, you must know all this. I 'm more than happy to help and collaborate with others with the same interest, which is why I post lots of links to help get people on the same page.But to be honest, when i'm so busy myself with various projects, it get a little exhausting sometimes answering the same questions over and over from various posters, or even the same when it's obvious those links haven't been made use of.

Some good ideas have been proposed, such as portable sytems (this used to be common in France for Brandy making), solar power etc, these can be followed up, even just to boil water. Combined with low pressure distillation, this may be a winner, would be great to hear results of any testing. Also, if not already, get on to yahoo groups alcohol fuel forum. This is a forum dedicated to etoh fuel, with great links and information, also vital to read. Do the research.

[Ayay]

You will have to give up your V8 and look at a 50cc motorcycle when the price of gas exceeds the price of ethanol.

Who knows, it may happen next week or in the next decade. Until then it's all about being ready.

[Dnderhead]

first thing to do is cut out all the unnecessary use,there seems to be a attitude of " I have the money so Ill do it anyway"..that has to change,,to "its not necessarily so I wont do it." much of the alternate energy is
is a big nothing,it works, but the "pay back" is so long that most will never recover.

[azeo]

agree, there does seem to be this bullish attitude and right of high consumption apparent in many (all countries?) . We see it here too. Reposting here our local concerns from local authors I have communicated amongst my own networks recently.

"Another concern is we do not have a policy or mandate to import ffvs right now. NZ’s fleet turn-over is slow and broad, with many vehicles staying in service for 20 yrs or so. If we wish to have a substantial vehicle fleet capable of being fuelled with say E50+ within 5-10yrs, we need to be importing such vehicles now. Most of our vehicles come from Japan and Korea, with smaller quantities from Australia (GM/Holden), US and Europe. Our national ethanol capability however is looking quite shaky at the moment, with competition for our major volume feedstock, lactose from whey, arising from a sharp increase in value from a waste feed-stock at $100 a metric ton, to a profit-making 1-$2000 a ton at present pricing. Bad for domestic ethanol.

Recent projections/predictions based on IEA information have identified 2030 or so as a date when imports of fuel in to this country could come to an end,
http://www.transitiontowns.org.nz/sites ... 10821a.jpg

with a bumpy ride along the way.
http://oilshockhorrorprobe.blogspot.com/
http://www.transitiontowns.org.nz/node/ ... mment-2177

Even without being alarmist, the capability to be “resilient” and more disconnected from world financial and energy crises seems a very important capability to have, and drives much of our efforts, and concerns, as much as educating the next generation of our potential solution providers.
"

jhe key is not to focus on any one feedstock or technique. To replace cheap oil requires a wide range of alternatives on local and regional scales, many of which only become more viable when crisis makes it so. It could be guaranteed though, that continuous development would allow refinements, but without some critical mass for roi to provide profits to return to R%D, the road-map for many good ideas looks tourtuous, and the environment at risk of hasty implementations.

[PurpleHaze]

I do not have a still but have read a lot about the subject.

I agree with most of what's been said on this topic but I would have ideas on how to make ethanol cheaper than gas.

I don't see a regular Joe doing this and saving money... But how about a farmer that has many acres.

- If you have apple trees, could make the mash from rotten apples from the ground.
- Many other fruit farms could use the bad fruit to put in a mash.

A farmer could also use firewood from his land or even pick up rotten wood to cook up the boiler.

Total cost 0$.

Is it worth the time and effort? Now that's another story and I don't have a farm to try it.

If I did have a farm, I would definitely think about it.

[Dnderhead]

one of the problems with small outfits is that it takes so long.spending a day to make a gallon or two of fuel just is not worth it..so even if you got free fermentables you still cant brake even.say it takes 14 hours to make 2 gallons.and working "out"you git 10$ per hour.that is 70$ a gallon.plus what ever the heat /yeast/fermentables cost.
time is money even for a farmer.he has crops to plant/harvest etc.

[ozone39]

Seems that someway to harness solar energy into heating the boiler would help....Solar steam/super heated water generator would work well for something like this...After all if it takes fossil energy to make "green" energy that seems to defeat the purpose...

[Dnderhead]

""if it takes fossil energy to make "green" energy that seems to defeat the purpose...""
That happens with a lot of the "green energy" things like solar panels/computers produce
more pollutants making them than they save.a solar panel takes something like 50 years
for "pay back".a computer is supposed to eliminate travel for salesmen/ businessmen.
I dont see it happening.I beleve the best way of saving energy/pollution is to use the least possible.
as you/me save with more efficient cars and less travel others blow 5X times the amount out the
tale pipe of a jet.

[PurpleHaze]

one of the problems with small outfits is that it takes so long.spending a day to make a gallon or two of fuel just is not worth it..so even if you got free fermentables you still cant brake even.say it takes 14 hours to make 2 gallons.and working "out"you git 10$ per hour.that is 70$ a gallon.plus what ever the heat /yeast/fermentables cost.
time is money even for a farmer.he has crops to plant/harvest etc.

Maybe someday, someone will come up with a "set it and forget it" stil... hehe

Or even better and cheaper, adding a chore to the wife... Cooking, cleaning and stil keeping...

[boingk]

Buy a 1980's Volvo diesel engined car, put a pre-heater unit in the boot and run the sucker on waste deep-fry oil.

Free fuel, from anywhere with a takeaway shop. Sound good to you? Does to me.

Cheers - boingk