Heating Element Control

[hackware]

whew...

i ate the whole thang...!

i jus thought i were confused b4...

[sirpj]

Ok, I might be a little new to this topic, so please forgive my ignorance, but couldn't you do say, a 2400w element controled by a simple SCR circuit, instead of the diac-triac combination. Its been a little while since my TAFE (been a sparky for 12 years now), but if memory serves me correct, SCR's only swich one way so your temp control would be in the 0-50 percent range. You could bypass the SCR to run the element at 2400 watts for pre-heating the mash and then use the SCR circuit for 0-1200 watts. These figures are examples only and by no means a recommended wattage.

[hackware]

been discussed... (42 pages...)

half wave will make lotz of emi (electromagnetic interference)...

so, you would want 2 scr's, back to back, which equals a triac...

the diac reduces parts count, and assists in protecting triac gate...

(even if ya know what yer doing, make sure ya know what yer doing...)

the ac dance ain't very fun...

[shadylane]

What about a Router Speed Controller....? I believe they are just HD rheostats, not the preferred variac.However, because they are designed to regulates the speed of a router motor, probably up to 3 HP at say 10-15 amps, wouldn't that do just as well...? Easy to plug into wall, and plug heating element into Speed controller....??? Not too pricey either..... Anybody ever done that??? Feed back............??

Thanks,

CW

Harbor freights speed controller works on my 1500 watt pot still.

[pumpman]

Howdy shadylane. Good handle by the way. I have a Harbor Frieght router speed controler and it won't pull over 8 amps wich I think on a 1500w ellament is around 800 wats. How did you gat past that obstical?

[MuleKicker]

You can get router controllers that are rated for 15A, or 1800w. It ait a bad idea to add a little extra heatsink if you do. Them controllers aint made to take that kind of current for hours. It will get hot and burn out.

[Prairiepiss]

Just opened up the back of my Harbor Freight speed controller. It has a BLA26-600B TRIAC in it. Looked it up and found the BLA26 is rated at 25 amps. So it should handle a 1500W element no problem. My elements are 220V 5500W so at 110V it should be around 1375W each. I will only run one on it. I should be good. I will run the other either on or off. Make adjustments with just the one on the controller. I'm going to replace the steel back plate on mine with a nice heatsink. Like Mulekicker suggested. Thanks. Should get me by until I step up to a 220V MK5500.

[rad14701]

Most of the commercially available controllers have over-sized Triacs but are lacking in adequate heat sinks and/or air circulation... Replacing the heat sink will extend the units service life substantially...

[tuxie]

being that my full time hobby is brewing, and side hobby is distilling, I am planning to use a brewtroller type setup. Brewtroller is a open source brewing control system aimed at the DIY type. These guys started with the idea of taking instrumentation and automation technology and creating DIY components for the everyday home-brewer that rival what commercial breweries have, they sell components at a reasonable price and love taking the same hardware they created for brewing beer to go off in other directions. Already people have come out with Fermtroller, which controls all aspects of the fermentation stage of brewing, and smoketroller which guys have played with to control a homemade smoker. For alot of people it might be overkill, but I am going that route anyways. My plan is to unplug the heater outputs, and temp sensor plug-ins, then plug-in my distillery that will be wired the same way as my brewery and let brewtroller control it. You can check out brewtroller at http://www.brewtroller.com/wiki/doku.php?id=start or there online store at http://www.oscsys.com/

[Jay_G]

Having read a bit of this thread and thoroughly confusung myself i found this 3200w controller for $12.40 AUD and have now got one on the way to use on my 30L 2100w Urn
Here

[studlyisme]

On one of the home still sites I see they sell 20A 120v router controllers to power thier 1500w elements so im guessing they work just fine? I see them on amazon for $30- My question is I see someone said they were going to run a 220v element with thiers- is that fine to do? I have a 15g keg and would love to go 220 at some point in time but just not possible untill I rewire the garage.. Ill be running dual elements (one strait and one controlled) was going to go with 2 of the 1500w 120v elements but can I put the 120v controller on a 220 element and it will just output less heat? like 1500w instead of 5500w? That way when I upgrade to 220 alls Id have to do is get a new controller?

[rad14701]

On one of the home still sites I see they sell 20A 120v router controllers to power thier 1500w elements so im guessing they work just fine? I see them on amazon for $30- My question is I see someone said they were going to run a 220v element with thiers- is that fine to do? I have a 15g keg and would love to go 220 at some point in time but just not possible untill I rewire the garage.. Ill be running dual elements (one strait and one controlled) was going to go with 2 of the 1500w 120v elements but can I put the 120v controller on a 220 element and it will just output less heat? like 1500w instead of 5500w? That way when I upgrade to 220 alls Id have to do is get a new controller?

That would depend totally on the specifications provided by the manufacturer... While most controllers are constructed with components that are rated for higher voltages than they are intended to be used with some of the components may not be able to handle the prolonged exposure to higher voltages... It should also be noted that some components may be selected for only a specific voltage range... For example, some controllers use potentiometers and ancillary components for optimal 120V or 240V mains power and won't work as effectively if a different power rating is supplied... And some can handle a wide range of mains voltage inputs without issues... Always stay within the rated mains voltage recommendations...

[Prairiepiss]

On one of the home still sites I see they sell 20A 120v router controllers to power thier 1500w elements so im guessing they work just fine? I see them on amazon for $30- My question is I see someone said they were going to run a 220v element with thiers- is that fine to do? I have a 15g keg and would love to go 220 at some point in time but just not possible untill I rewire the garage.. Ill be running dual elements (one strait and one controlled) was going to go with 2 of the 1500w 120v elements but can I put the 120v controller on a 220 element and it will just output less heat? like 1500w instead of 5500w? That way when I upgrade to 220 alls Id have to do is get a new controller?

Depends on what your asking here. Are you talking about using the controller on 120 it 240?
I use one that I have modded with a larger heatsink. And I run it on 120 v powering a 240 v 5500w element. At 120 the element will run around 1375w. So the 1500w controlling can handle it. They are just nor built for the prolonged use that we do. That's why I added the large heatsink from Rad's suggestion. It still its pretty warm. And I might go with a bigger heatsink soon.

If you are talking about running the controllers off 240v. You mite run into problems as Rad stated.

[studlyisme]

I want to do exactly what your doing pp, glad to know it works and used to be in the computer field so ive got extra heatsinks laying around- thanks!

[Prairiepiss]

That is exactly what I used. An old CPU heatsink. I milled the back so it fit the controller housing. And a recess for the chip. I would use the biggest heatsink you can along with a little heatsink grease. I have 2 5500w elements installed in my keg. I use the controller on one and just plug the other in. On two different circuits in my house of course. That would be to much for one circuit. I got my controller from Harbor Freight for $17.99. Even if I burn it up its cheap enough I can get another. Later on I plan to go 240v and a MK5500 for a controller. When I get the extra funds.

[andrewgwu]

I hate to add redundancy to this 28 page long thread, but I would like to have someone look over my plans and parts list before I start ordering everything.

I have intended on buying/building a controller for quite some time, but money, or lack there of, has gotten in the way. I think I finally have the funds to purchase the materials for the build. I was hoping to build a phase angle controller similar to the MK5500. As far as the parts I need, I want to ensure I have them correct before I proceed. I have little knowledge in electronics, but I have a family member who is very knowledgeable in this area. and has agreed to put everything together for me. I plan on using a 220v 4500 watt element.

I have read through most of the threads on element controllers and design. My parts list (excluding the housing and other hardware) are:
[ ]PSR-25 - Newark parts #97K7822 ($46) http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/produc ... ku=97K7822
[ ]Pot - 2w - Newark parts #04F8770 ($8)http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/produc ... ku=04F8770
[ ]Heat Sink - This one from ebay ($10) http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Heat-Sink-S ... 1c1e064fe7
[ ]Knob - local electronics store ($5)
[ ]Thermal Grease - local electronics store ($7)
[ ]Fuse - Is a fuse needed when running of an appropriate circut breaker? I know this isn't it some of the designs I have seen. However, I see it in the schematic in the specs for the PSR-25.

With shipping I am looking at $80 plus a box and enough 10 gauge wire. It looks like I will total a little over $100. Probably around $125 with the element and plug.

I also noticed the schematic in the PSR-25 specs says a filter is required for this unit, but have noted in previous discussion on this forum that it is not for our purposes.

As I understand it I will run the ground wire to the relay where it attaches to the sink (with a ground coming off for the pot) and then on through to the stainless keg. If I chose to put in an appropriately rated on/off switch then it would also need to be connected to the ground. I will wire the pot on connection 3 and 4 of the PSR. One line will run all the way through. The other will be connected between post one and two. The "neutral" and "load" connections

This all seems pretty straight forward to me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Does anyone see anything wrong with my parts list before I purchase these things or anything I need to add?

[maheel]

I also noticed the schematic in the PSR-25 specs says a filter is required for this unit, but have noted in previous discussion on this forum that it is not for our purposes.

As I understand it I will run the ground wire to the relay where it attaches to the sink (with a ground coming off for the pot) and then on through to the stainless keg. If I chose to put in an appropriately rated on/off switch then it would also need to be connected to the ground. I will wire the pot on connection 3 and 4 of the PSR. One line will run all the way through. The other will be connected between post one and two. The "neutral" and "load" connections

This all seems pretty straight forward to me, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Does anyone see anything wrong with my parts list before I purchase these things or anything I need to add?

i have a PSR the same and use a PC heat sink i run a 2400w 240v 50L keg

seems like your on track
your right about the ground to the sink and the keg / switch (if any) just check your ground with a multi meter "works"
yes one line right through, other goes to N then load goes to element
3&4 is the pot

pretty simple but be safe and think about it

i also run a PC fan off a mobile phone charger in mine to cool the heat sink, not 100% sure it needs it
i would prefer a small 240v fan
i also have some holes to allow cooling air to pass through the case via the fan -> heat sink

[rad14701]

andrewgwu, looks like you've got it covered... I always use either a fuse or a circuit breaker on any electronics projects... A bit of redundancy never hurts...

[tomgndallas]

Having read a bit of this thread and thoroughly confusung myself i found this 3200w controller for $12.40 AUD and have now got one on the way to use on my 30L 2100w Urn
Here

Jay G,

Any further reviews on this product? It was coming from Hong Kong so I am curious about its reliability after sustained use. Looks robust enough with that heat sink, but looks can be deceiving. As a seasoned veteran of traveling in China and buying from the copymarkets, you never know what you are going to get or how long till the wheels fall off!

Tom G

[Odin]

Hello everybody,

A friend of mine is an electrical engineer as well as an ergonomist (ergonomy?). Well, I think it is called like that. He made me a power controller that can work with anything from the lights on your x-mass tree to a 3 KW electrical element for distilling. Mine is 2.4 KW, so guess what i use it for (hey, it is not x-mass yet!) ...

Great thing about it, is it works lineairy. Computer inside is programmed in such a way that one turn (potmeter can turn 10 times) is 10% up or down. And it is stable to 0.01%. Surges (minor or big) from the power socket outlet are compesated. Normal sinuses are topped of to get a more stable result.

For pics (and a story in Dutch) see:

http://thuisdestilleren.messageboard.nl ... f=14&t=163" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Odin.

[rad14701]

Jay G,

Any further reviews on this product? It was coming from Hong Kong so I am curious about its reliability after sustained use. Looks robust enough with that heat sink, but looks can be deceiving. As a seasoned veteran of traveling in China and buying from the copymarkets, you never know what you are going to get or how long till the wheels fall off!

Tom G

All of the models I checked appear to be well constructed... The addition of a CPU cooling fan would definitely increase reliability...

[Ben Stillin]

I have a quirky question

I have need to get 24Vac from my mains so I can use it to switch on my primary relays to the traics.

being that its 3-wire, single-phase, mid-point neutral power should I use be able to us a single phase 10:1 stepdown transformer connected between both 120V lines?

I don't like the idea of connecting it to one 120V line and neutral, though I cant really tell you why I don't like it.

I don't need much power to click these relays over and I would rather not have to source another 120V circuit.

[rad14701]

The minute amount of draw on one 120V leg to get 24V would make wouldn't impose any problems... Think of it this way, whether off one of those 120V legs or off another separate 120V circuit makes zero difference at the mains bus... Line noise will be zilch... Many 240V electric stoves also have a 120V outlet which further proves my point...

[KY1792]

Since Rad gave you the simple and correct answer I will add a bit more just for the sake of confusion.

The relays you mention seem to be used for switching the mains into the SSR's and the contact rating should be around 30 amps, these would be referred to as power relays or contactors and require a bit more juice to energize than an ice cube type relay.

A typical 30 amp power relay will usually require about 10 watts to pull in, at 24 vac it would need 0.4 amps or 0.04 amps when stepped down from 240 vac or 0.08 amps when stepped down the 120 volt line. The holding current after the armature has sealed is much less and usually 1/2 of the initial pull value i.e. 0.04 amps for 120v or 0.02 amps for 240v.

Also since a relay is inductive it needs to have AC power factor correction which could conceivably raise the needed current by 30% (more or less). Even then it would still be less than a tenth of an amp at 120 volts, this slight amount would be a negligible imbalance in your panel compared to what a few loose breaker terminals are causing at any given time.

I will however say that if this is 120 volts derived from a hot hot ground rather than a hot hot neutral then that 1/10th amp imbalance could cause a lethal shock, albeit the chance of winning the lottery would be the better bet - electrocution is still implied.

[Ben Stillin]

Thanks Rad!


That is correct, they are mechanical power relays rather than SSRs. I'm not actually using SSRs on this unit at all. They are DPST relays so I can disconnect both hots.
I'm actually running 2 elements off this circuit at 5500each and my triacs are Teccor Q5040p (along with the other discrete components). I have a large aluminum heatsink to attach (6x8x1) the triacs to and if needed I can drop a fan on it. The main circuit is supposed to be a 60 amp hot tub circuit.

[Jay_G]

Having read a bit of this thread and thoroughly confusung myself i found this 3200w controller for $12.40 AUD and have now got one on the way to use on my 30L 2100w Urn
Here

Jay G,

Any further reviews on this product? It was coming from Hong Kong so I am curious about its reliability after sustained use. Looks robust enough with that heat sink, but looks can be deceiving. As a seasoned veteran of traveling in China and buying from the copymarkets, you never know what you are going to get or how long till the wheels fall off!

Tom G

I have used it once now for about 6 hours straight, worked a treat, although i think i will be putting a fan on the heatsink as it got quite hot, almost untouchable, (it was a close to 30 degree c day) i also need to fit it to a container, as it has bare tracks on the pcb on the bottom so it is a bit of an electrocution risk.

[duracell]

I already have built a 240v controller using odessits diagram, and now I am trying to build a 120v version but am having some problems. I am using the same components as the 220v version, but the best I can get it to do is go from off, to half power, then full power with no inbetween. Increasing the value of the 10k resistor makes the circuit go on instead of off which is counter intuitive to me. Any ideas?

[rad14701]

I already have built a 240v controller using odessits diagram, and now I am trying to build a 120v version but am having some problems. I am using the same components as the 220v version, but the best I can get it to do is go from off, to half power, then full power with no inbetween. Increasing the value of the 10k resistor makes the circuit go on instead of off which is counter intuitive to me. Any ideas?

Did you drop from a 500K to a 250K potentiometer...???

Also, I'm assumingyou are referring to the phase angle rather than 555 PWM based controller...

[duracell]

Did you drop from a 500K to a 250K potentiometer...???

Also, I'm assumingyou are referring to the phase angle rather than 555 PWM based controller...

Yes this is the phase angle controller. I have tried both the 500k and 250k pot but there is no linear control, just off, mid and high. Furthermore it's not stable at these settings it will wander between these 3 modes by itself, maybe since you barely have to turn the pot to move between these 3 settings.

I've tried switching out every component, and I've tried a dozen different capacitors of various values. I've tried even changing out the 10K resistor for a POT to see if I could dial in the correct value, but I can't get it to do anything but off, mid and high.

It's especially frustrating since I've already built one of these for 220v and it works fine.

This is the diagram I'm going off of:

[rad14701]

duracell, do you have a list of part numbers, by chance...??? I'm not sure if I have a single time constant circuit put together or not but I can check tomorrow to see if i have enough parts to make one up quick... I have a hysterisis free circuit waiting to go into a box at the moment and would rather use spare parts than hork parts from that one...