Oxygen in the wash

[Dvillageidiot]

I have access to liquid oxygen, should i use this to put oxygen in my wash instead of just shaking it up?
And when i say liquid i mean it is in a tank and i would use an air hose not pour liquid oxygen in the wash (just in case some people think i'm eat up with the idiot i wouldn't do that..)

I keep reading about creating a better environment for the yeast to multiply before it starts to produce alcohol from a lack of oxygen, this is all well and good but can their be to much of a good thing? Can i do more harm than good by using pure oxygen in the wash?

Thanks for your time,

d.v.i.

[Dnderhead]

some brewers use o2 with a 2-3 second burst

[ozone39]

I am curious about this as well. Seems a guy could set up a very low pressure hose with a needle valve and inject O2 at a very low rate to assist the yeast.....I am thinking a drop tube into the wash (ferment vessel) and letting it "percolate" at a rate of a couple bubbles every ten seconds or something????

[Dnderhead]

use a air stone ,these mix the o2 much better.you dont want o2 throughout the ferment just at the beginning.
to establish the yeast after that none.

[junkyard dawg]

Your over thinking this o2 thing...

geez, and with a name like ozone...

You only need a few seconds of pure oxygen bubbling into the wash to provide enough to make the yeast happy. You don't want to provide O2 throughout the ferment. Yeast need it after pitching to reproduce and grow into a healthy population. When they deplete that O2 then they start to produce ethanol. so, A good stirring can do it... so can pouring the wash from container to container... I put a little hose onto my torch and bubble a few seconds and it works fine.

[Dvillageidiot]

Thanks for your replies, i think i will experiment with using a stone and letting it run for 20 or 30 minutes on just a gallon of wash and then try without and compare the two. im curious what will happen if you really overdo it in the beginning not throughout fermentation. I'm honestly curious if i can shorten the time for a complete ferment or if i will cause it to get stuck. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

[junkyard dawg]

You too, are over thinking this O2 thing...

[Usge]

I have an airpump, stone, filter setup that I use to aerate wash before pitching yeast and/or mixing it (with multi-gen ferments like UJSM). I can't say I've "experimented" with it much. But, I do have some experience with it. Athough the components are pretty easily found separately, I bought this setup from a brewshop who recommended 15-20 mins aeration time with an airpump...compared to 2mins or so with O2 system they use. (which is bascially the same setup, only using bernz O2 bottles).

The thing I've noticed is that there is a direct correlation between lagtime (growth phase before yeast become active), and aeration. Shorter aeration times (10mins) had lag time of about 1/2 day or so, and ferment was slow..if erratic. Aeration times of 15-20 mins produced at least one full day lag time, and more active fermentation. Aeration times of 30-45 mins...produced lag times up to 2 days, followed by very strong fermentation. That's as far as I've gone.

Can you over aerate? I have no idea. That's been a question debated other circles (brewing forums), etc. At 40 mins aeration, there's a white froth on top of the the ferment. My guess is, there is simply a point of diminishing returns..and/or saturation level where the excess O2 just gets blown out the top via the froth. I can tell you this....yeast likey

[blind drunk]

Thought I throw this out there in the name of science. I didn't aerate my previous 2 all grains at all. I read that the scotch producers don't aerate their mash so I thought I'd give it a try. My mashes were done in less than two days @ 100 degrees. I pitched a rather large starter and there was almost no lag time. The end results - the distillate - was really good. I'm gonna do the same moving forward.

[Usge]

Hey BD...what was your mash? (all malt?). Aeration indeed ads lagtime (at least this is what I've experienced). Only wash I've ever had finish that quick (2 days) was about 3%.

[blind drunk]

All malted barley. It was the sifted barley malt experiment.

I just logged on to delete my post as I thought it was a little off topic. Too late!

[Dnderhead]

lots of o2 is one of the secrets of propagating yeast.so aerating throughout the ferment whould mean you have 1/4? of a fermenter full . that is what happens in a flask.you take a few cells add to a wash ,aerate and you can grow a half bottle full of yeast.take those add to a bigger container and repeat.iv made gallions this way.all started with just a few cells.

[Coaster]

There are two stages of Fermentation - aerobic fermentation (referred to as Primary Fermentation) and anaerobic fermentation (referred to as Secondary Fermentation). During the aerobic fermentation stage oxygen is need to start the fermentation processes. After the aerobic fermentation stage has completed and the anaerobic fermentation stage begins oxygen is not required or desired. Oxygen present during the anaerobic fermentation stage will slow down the fermentation processes. So once the Primary Fermentation (aerobic fermentation) starts adding oxygen can actually slow down the fermentation processes.

Regards,
Coaster

[Jasper]

Yes - use it! I have used canned o2 quite a bit and find it really helps to make healthy yeasties. I generally squirt pure o2 in the cooled wort for about 2 minutes or so and then do a vigorous shake for a bit before i put the airlock on. I know people who use aquarium pumps but that doesn't seem a whole lot different than just shaking it with the cap off to me... and seems like it could possible invite contamination? Adding oxygen (by o2 tank, pump, or shaking) is one of the BEST things you can do for your yeast.

[Dnderhead]

I disagree with part of that.yeast love the o2 and will grow and prosper in its presents.ferments fast, BUT it completely devours
all sugars/nutrients this produces co2 and water.with out O2 yeast slow down fermenting and does not completely use sugar and the yeast produces byproducts.one of we are interested in is alcohol.
so you want o2 to give the yeast a start,then none so the yeast produces alcohol.
if you keep airating you will end up with co2+water ,lots of yeast and little or no alcohol.

[Usge]

Hmmm...not quite sure who here is advocating continuing to pump O2 into your wash after it starts actively fermenting?? Did I miss that somewhere???

The airpump (aquarium pump) setup works fine. It just takes longer than squirting pure O2 in the wash. It has a one way filter on it to keep contaminants out (ie, the round ones like the ones they use for the cap on the ez siphon starter). They say 2 mins for O2 bottle. At least 20-25 mins for the airpump. Either way, beats hand thrashing it.

AerationSystem.jpg (5.7 KiB) Viewed 3948 times

[FreeMountainHermit]

One of the guys here uses a stick blender and swears that its the real deal for aeration of his mash so much that it makes his mash a little foggy till it dissipates .


http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-CSB-77- ... B0006G3JRO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


FMH.

[Prairiepiss]

You can only get 8ppm O2 using normal ambient air. And you can get that by pouring it back and forth between two buckets 6 times.

[ozone39]

so the general consensus here is giver her a good squirt of O2 at the beginning and then let it sail on.....

[rtalbigr]

8-10 ppm O2 is what's necessary for the yeast. Of course the best method is pure O2. One L/min injection in 5 gal wort for 60 sec will give about 9 ppm. An aquarium pump for 30 min will give 8 ppm. I have had on occasion a ferment get off to a slow start and have dropped the aquarium pump in for 10-15 minutes with good results.

Big R

[junkyard dawg]

so the general consensus here is giver her a good squirt of O2 at the beginning and then let it sail on....

Yep, its just that simple.

[rad14701]

Too much oxygenation might tend to nudge some saccharomyces cerevisiae strains into dual mode fermenation where they are acting as though they are simultaneously in aerobic and anaerobic phases for a prolonged period of time... This could cause a premature depletion of available nutrients, leading to unexpected stalling... And if the colony overdevelops beyond it's required size without proper nutrients it could cause autolysis which could produce off smells and flavors even if the wash didn't stall... There is such a thing as too much of a good thing...

[Usge]

Rad, do you think this is even possible on a "grain" ferment? (to run out of nutrients?)

[rtalbigr]

Rad, do you think this is even possible on a "grain" ferment? (to run out of nutrients?)

That just ain't gonna happen. Grains have pretty much all the nutes yeast are gonna need. There are some micro nutes that can be added to just help things along. From what I have read too much O2 just isn't an issue with AG's; now if you're doing a sugar wash, well, and that's not my thing,but I can see that there might be a limit.

Big R

[MitchyBourbon]

I only aerate when I don't have the time to do a yeast starter.

I find using a starter reduces lag time. I just make my starter a couple days in advance of when I'm gonna use it. I also try to use the same ingredients in the same proportions as my mash for the starter, this helps to keep the yeast from going into shock when you pitch it. When i'm done mashing I take steps to prevent any O2 from getting into the wort when I transfer to my fermenter. After separating the grains I do a final boil for 5 min cover and cool to 120 F and siphon to my fermener and pitch my starter around 80 F. I usually have an active ferment going in 10 min after pitching... No lag time.

The big benefit doin it this way isn't savin the lag time, it's that I can tell my yeast is healthy before I pitch it. I don't have to wait a day and wonder if something has gone wrong.

[blind drunk]

Me too, Mitchy. Works pretty well like you described it. Instant take off. I only use 1 tsp of baker's to make my starter and I don't boil cause I've been fermenting on the grain.

[HellsWintr]

I just use an old chunk of wood that i crudely cut into the shape of a boat oar and stir the crap outa it for about 20 seconds. That hasnt failed me yet.

[6fiddyv]

I have used a Venturi device on the past 20 or so beer washes, it's simple, I use a tube to siphon from boiler to fermenter, in line I reduce it two times, second reducing tube is about 6 ines long, in that I drilled/poked about 10 very small holes so when the wort passes these holes it draws in air, does not leak like I had thought it was going to. It's been by far the easiest, and is very effective. After the device I expand it back to the size of the siphon tube for about 2 feet into the fermenter, te whole length of the device is about 1 foot long. I may have explained it to be too confusing, but it is so simple...just google it. it's pretty remarkable just how simple it is. Sorry no pics.

[mash rookie]

When starting a fresh wash without backset oxygenating is helpful but not usually necessary. When using backset or dunder oxygen levels will be low and the yeast will struggle to reach saturation during the aerobic phase causing a slow ferment.

When I start a fresh wash using backset, I drop my cutting torch in the backset and sugar mix for a good fifteen minutes with the oxygen cracked just enough for a gentle boil.

My washes take off like a rocket

MR

[Coaster]

I use an inexpensive Drywall Mud Mixer in a power drill. I aerate my mash/wash for a couple of minutes before pitching my yeast.

Regards,
Coaster