Required reading....

[HolyBear]

Hey fellers, I've been doing some thinkin (and a lil drinking), but I've noticed that alot of the newbies get hammered (justifiably so!) Fer not doing "the required reading".... I know alot of it is to knock em into the frame a mind to do the research fer themselves to learn the tons of info available here, and as a counter point the hazing is in good humor building dialogs.....

But my simple question is this,... in order to cut down on answering the same ol questions, is there someway to require the "required reading" be done in order to sign up on the site?

[Prairiepiss]

Sounds familiar.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p6904382

[frozenthunderbolt]

20 distilling related questions with multi choice answers. you have to get all 20 correct before you can get to the sign up site. a wrong answer directs back to the home page?
Could still read the forum but then couldn't post until they had read enough to answer the questions to get them through to the sign up as a member bit
Would be choice, but i dont know if the forum software could handle it - would also be the ultimate spam buster - like an uber-captecha to keep them out!

[HolyBear]

Yea Mr P, Rad, and FrozenT, something along those lines. Homework and a quiz sounds like it would work to reduce the redundant questions. Would it hamper membership? Or would it just better prepare those who really want to learn?... I'm not normally a fan of regulation (obviously non of us are).... but I do think something along these lines would better prepare the newbie's....

[Prairiepiss]

but I do think something along these lines would better prepare the newbie's.

They don't want to be better prepared. They want spoon fed answers to just the questions they have.

[fullhouse]

sounds like a good idea.... i loved Mr P the otherday with his "airplane spoon" bout spit my coffee out LMAO

[mash rookie]

but I do think something along these lines would better prepare the newbie's.

They don't want to be better prepared. They want spoon fed answers to just the questions they have.

PP, can you post up the glossary we made somewhere for newbes? Half the time they are not understanding what they read because of our specific words.

And dont be a trub about it. Be a sugar head and help them out.

[Oxbo Rene]

Yeah, I agree ! ! ! !

[Prairiepiss]

You can lead a horse to water. But you can't make him drink. No matter how hard I try.

MR I have 6 other informational threads I'm working on I came seem to find time to finish them. Along with a bunch of builds I'm trying to find time to finish. Right now I'm setting up a pool. And I'm suppose to be at a friends concert in an hour.i I jump on here with my phone when I get a chance to. And answer as many questions as I can. I would love to take on that task. But I just don't have the time. And you know as well as I do. If they really wanted to know what the words ment. It would take them all of a minute or two to find the answer.

[Oxbo Rene]

Hey, I came to this forum, and read, and read, and read, and decided on the build I wanted, then built it !
I didn't need no hand-holding, I don't understand these folks that haven't a clue = they just don't read ! ! !
Yes, I agree that they need help, but, it's all elementary, just read and study ! !
I have short patience, so I stay out of it (newbee's asking stupid questions).
(done shown my azz too much).........
But, if ya want a forum of "informed" individuals without the new rif-raft, then you're gonna have to
have a test to get in, or, have a secret forum that allows only those the mods deem OK to have access to.
But, what the heck do I know,
I'm a newbee myself ..............

But, I figured out how to build a still, out of the correct components, and run it, and, ferment my washes,
just by "reading" without too much bothering the old timers with stupid questions, etc, etc, etc....

"READ" folks, just "READ" ! ! ! !

[mash rookie]

You can lead a horse to water. But you can't make him drink. No matter how hard I try.

MR I have 6 other informational threads I'm working on I came seem to find time to finish them. Along with a bunch of builds I'm trying to find time to finish. Right now I'm setting up a pool. And I'm suppose to be at a friends concert in an hour.i I jump on here with my phone when I get a chance to. And answer as many questions as I can. I would love to take on that task. But I just don't have the time. And you know as well as I do. If they really wanted to know what the words ment. It would take them all of a minute or two to find the answer.

Dont make me go over your helmut spaceball. Lets throw them a bone.

[HolyBear]

Well... that's kinda one a my points, all tha hammering does lead to conversation. Even though they will get hazed,.. they do have the opportunity ta learn a little sumthin... but fer the mods, I'm sure it must be a little frustrating, just thought sumthin along those lines might ease their pain. ALL OF EM, deserve credit fer their patience with us!!!!

[HolyBear]

Rad has already commented via... http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p6904382 but, I'm interested to hear his comments on this since he would prolly be tha one to help Dave fix this situation... ifn a fix is required....

[Frosteecat]

I've been putting together a "New Distiller's Bible" with organized subject matter and alphabetized glossary--with links to the threads that go over the topics.
If I get it done (you can imagine how big a project that is) I will send it to the appropriate Mod(s) to do with as they please.
I figure it's the least I can do with my editing/writing background. I sure the hell can't teach anyone to solder...

[HolyBear]

I've been putting together a "New Distiller's Bible" with organized subject matter and alphabetized glossary--with links to the threads that go over the topics.
If I get it done (you can imagine how big a project that is) I will send it to the appropriate Mod(s) to do with as they please.
I figure it's the least I can do with my editing/writing background. I sure the hell can't teach anyone to solder...

Wait a minute, wait a minute, whoa... Frostcat, you could be a makin sum $ offa "Stillers Bible"... we at this time so fer, still live in a capitalist country,... you could prolly make a mint offa somthin like that. Why not publish it???

[Frosteecat]

I've been putting together a "New Distiller's Bible" with organized subject matter and alphabetized glossary--with links to the threads that go over the topics.
If I get it done (you can imagine how big a project that is) I will send it to the appropriate Mod(s) to do with as they please.
I figure it's the least I can do with my editing/writing background. I sure the hell can't teach anyone to solder...

Wait a minute, wait a minute, whoa... Frostcat, you could be a makin sum $ offa "Stillers Bible"... we at this time so fer, still live in a capitalist country,... you could prolly make a mint offa somthin like that. Why not publish it???

We gonna split the royalties 11,000 ways?

Not a bad idea though. Any interested parties wanting to gather up all that free advice they've given, put it in one lump document and have me edit it all into a single book form for sale hit me up. We can get a dialog going off to the side. I may be quitting my job soon and going on a long road trip looking at craft stillers, etc. so a book writing project on the side would be perfect.

[rad14701]

Why not publish it???

Sometimes the feeling of giving back is more rewarding than otherwise unrealized profits... The word gets spread faster if you aren't relying on people paying for it because they'd be more likely to steal it if they really wanted it... Been there... Done that...

As for how to reduce the repeated answering of questions, we can't fix human nature so a majority of people will always ask for help before helping themselves... And we don't have the option of human conditioning shock collars, darn it...!!!

[Frosteecat]

You could do a virtual one....put a big dunce cap on their profile pic once they've asked 10 totally obvious questions...

I wear a 7 3/4.

[CuWhistle]

Hand up for guilty plea. Please go easy on me for I've seen the error of my ways.

While I did do quite a bit of reading and investigating (like several weeks, but obviously not enough) before starting to build or join up or begin a wash etc, I still had many simple, straight forward but ridiculously boring questions. When viewed from the side of the Newbie, it makes perfect sense to use a forum such as this, as the place to seek answers. Now reading this, it is also obvious that the more experienced members would tire of this daily repitition.

Using the search option for specific answers does not always lead to the info required and a direct question is the obvious next step. Searching in itself is a bit of an aquired skill and some people are better at it than others. There is also the provision of information based on varying opinion. Not all of humanity nor the forum membership, have the same opinion or beliefs relating to all things distilling. We were always taught the method "if you don't know, Ask. Don't be afraid to ask questions. etc" Now this very approach is under scrutiny and being judged as a problem. And I completely understand why and accept it that way.

I don't think that making people pass a test upon joining is the answer. I do think, that when the newb joins up there is the ability to point this problem out in a simple friendly way and ask them to not join up to just ask ridiculously stupid questions, as I now realise is exactly what I did. Put it in the validation email or make validation a 2 step procedure. I don't know exactly how. Now you have probably already set up this facility by labelling a thread as "Required Reading", but an excited, enthusiastic newb with his brand new whistle ain't gonna see that. It's our nature to be egocentric and not see through the wire.

Sorry for being part of the problem, and loooking forward to being part of the solution.

[rad14701]

I honestly think a major part of the problem is new members only reading what they want to read or think they should read instead of doing intensive reading... When new member go and just read, as suggested, they realize that they need to read more in order to have a full grasp of the underlying theories surrounding hobby scale home distillation...

[Dnderhead]

a bunch thank they can just throw turbos and sugar together run it threw a still and have good cheep boose.
that is what many of those selling stills imply. then after they do this and cant drink it.then come here for ansers.
some are ok with the ansers we give others not.

[Husker]

a bunch thank they can just throw turbos and sugar together run it threw a still and have good cheep boose.
that is what many of those selling stills imply. then after they do this and cant drink it.then come here for ansers.
some are ok with the ansers we give others not.

This is one of the biggest problems out there. Vermin ^h^h^h^h^h internet distiller sellers make claims that it is "SO EASY to do, no effort at all". Simply get some sugar, toss in our magic turbo yeast, run it through our 100% safe, cutting edge still, dump it through some simple carbon, dump in our excellent essence, and simply bottle up above top shelf liquor!


Well, all they really are saying is Buy our still. Buy our overpriced turbo yeast. Buy our dextrose (at 10x the price it should be). Buy our carbon filter material. Buy our clearing agent you need for the turbo yeast. Buy our overpriced and horrible essences.

What happens, is just like Dnder mentioned. The swill they make is undrinkable. They have blown $750 and often, only have a very inferior still to show for it (and half a dozen packets of turbo yeast and some carbon). But the worst thing they have, is they have the idea that they KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, and do not require reading information. They come here, WITH THEIR KNOW-HOW, and simply want us to tell them the step that they got wrong.

We see this time, and time again. I do think we need to draw back the teeth a little, on our initial replies. Many of these folks ARE good people, they simply have been 'infected' by the misinformation (or even flat out lies) and hype that many commercial still selling companies (such as still drinkin, moonshiners tv show, etc), are putting out. We need to quickly, BUT politely tell them to try to forgit the BS they think is knowledge, and to learn a little of the real how to information. Many will. Some will not.

Often those some that will not learn, end up being the loudest shouters in the front door. They simply want the 'pour the water and magic formula into this side of the magic machine, and put your bottles on this other side of the magic machine, to collect the super low cost, top shelf product. They KNOW that there is some magic process to do this, they have bought the hype, hook line and sinker. Since we can not give them this magic bullet, they become pissed, yell a bit, and leave, looking for it somewhere else. I bet many of them never return, due to not having the tenacity to spend the time EVER to produce good stuff. They stumble around, spend a lot of dollars chasing a lie, and end up mad, and simply go back to buying commercial swill. A LOT of the money made by commercial home hobby still builders, is from these people. They spend money, and go no where. You can see a lot of advertising to this fantasy. Hell, the WHOLE biz model of the still drinkin vermin is setup to tell that lie, and grab as much money as possible from people thinking like that.

Well, that's is MORE than enough rant from me about this. Yes, we do have a lot of new signup's, that simply want to know ONE thing they are doing wrong, so their supposed to be top shelf (but really swill), ends up being the top shelf it should be. I think we need to grasp just where they are coming, try to assure them that we DO know the answers (and will give them for free), and that the knowledge they think they know, is likely not high quality. I know a lot of 'read, read, read' replies are given on this site, and tons of "dont do that because of rule 8". However, those 2 answers, although technically right, provide little information to a new arrival. I know we can do better as a group. We all know the moral story about: flies with honey and vinegar, correct?

H.

[bentstick]

Well put Husker!
May I add, although many do fall into the hype and fall on their face with stuff the lawnmower would propably puke on, there are some that heed the advice given and listen with an open mind, THEN you have the few, that no matter how nice,or straight forward you are just want to argue they know better,or I am doing it my way. All the powers to be here should be given a standing ovation for the( at many times tolerance) of the hard headed and sometimes rude replies they get once they have gave their answer. I for one read until my eyes bled for about 6 months before I even tried this endeavor I just hope many other newbies coming would do the same, it is not rocket science, but basic science (until you get into theories and still design) it is all here for the taking,but you must first understand and follow safety,and genreal practices to make it work,but with everything else we are human and all have an opinion on everything.

I want to thank everyone for this site, it is to say the least at times informational,entertaining,humors and yes sometimes arguementive isn't it great.

[mash rookie]

I think we need to grasp just where they are coming, try to assure them that we DO know the answers (and will give them for free), and that the knowledge they think they know, is likely not high quality. I know a lot of 'read, read, read' replies are given on this site, and tons of "dont do that because of rule 8". However, those 2 answers, although technically right, provide little information to a new arrival. I know we can do better as a group. We all know the moral story about: flies with honey and vinegar, correct?

edited because I cant spell

I completely agree Husker. I have made a few members mad at me for telling them to be a little nicer. I would like to see an almost standard greeting.
IS IT POSSIBLE? to set the site so that all new members can only post in Mentor section until ready? Something like this from mentors. It would mean the MENTORS would have to start being nice.

Hi Sir Knucklehead, Welcome aboard. Here is a link to some unique words we use here. ************ this will help you as you study and read through the site.

Here are some links to what we consider required reading before you jump in with two. Feet. Our first concern is for the safety of our guest and members. Once you are somewhat up to speed, you will be allowed to post in the general forum. link************** link########### link*************link#########

I know there has not been much support from moderators for the specific word glossary but many think it would be quite helpful to new members.


ABV . Alcohol Percentage by volume. Not to be confused with Proof.

Activated carbon. Used to filter a neutral wash to remove off flavors
and impurities.

AG . All grain. Such as an All Grain wash or ferment.(no sugar)

Aging. Time spent for the spirits to mellow.

Airing . Leaving your distillate jars open for higher alcohols
(heads) to escape. Some distillers, including commercial
distillers use airing stones and pump air through the
distillate to speed the process.

Back Set. What is left in your still after distillation. Referred to
As ”Dunder” when Rum has been distilled

Barm The yeast bed left in the fomenter.

Blending, The art of putting together the different collection cuts to
achieve the best final product as possible.

Birdwatchers: A sugar wash recipe for creating neutral spirits.
(Vodka)
Boka A type of still

Conversion: Enzyme conversion of starches to fermentable sugars.
Malted Barley is the most common malted grain used.

Cuts Collection in small containers to identify the changes
from Heads, Hearts and Tails before blending.

DRY Ferment that has completed and has no sugar taste.

Dunder What is left in the still after distillation of Rum.

DWWG Death Wish wheat germ. Wash Recipe

Fients Heads and Tails not included in your final blend and
usually added to the next distilling run

Flute Scaled down commercial type plated still.

Ferment on the Grain. as opposed to sparging. (removing
liquid from converted grain starches prior to
fermentation)

Graham A type of condenser

Grain bill Types and ratios of grains used in a whiskey
Recipe.

Heads The undesirable higher alcohols to come off the
still first
Hearts The desirable middle alcohols from your run.

Hydrometer ABV Meter used for distilled spirits or or SG
Meter used in wash to determine sugar level.

Lees What is left in your fermenter after the liquid is
siphoned into still. Typically would contain spent
nutrients and barm. (yeast)

Liebig A type of condenser.

Lyne arm The horizontal arm on a pot still.

Mashing The art of cooking grain and converting
starches to fermentable sugars.
Mash Grain that has been converted and ready to be
fermented.

Neutral Clear flavorless alcohol. (vodka)

Oaking Aging your liquor in oak barrels, chunks or oak
chips.
Parrot A device that holds an ABV meter allowing
alcohol strength to be monitored during
distillation collection.
Pitch Adding yeast to fermenter.
Reflux Referring to a still type or action. Reflux stills re-
distil alcohol many times before take off.

Sugar head Grain ferment that sugar has been added to
achieve a higher alcohol potential.
Sparg Removing fermentable liquid from grain after
starch conversion.
SG Specific gravity. SG meters are used to measure
sugar content in a wash to determine potential
alcohol
Shot gun A type of condenser

Tails Lower alcohols and congeners that are present
at the end of a distilling run.
UJSSM Uncle Jesse Simple Sour Mash. Recipe.
Wash Your fermenting mixture.

Wort see above

[HolyBear]

M R .... I like the idea of a glossary, have said so in tha past, the terms we use are a whole other language. If nothing else, maybe some newbie will come across this post an learn a little sumthin... thanks...

[Frosteecat]

I'll work on linking from that glossary to pertinent threads. First I have to go watch my little league team get beat like a drum. And drive 2 hrs round trip for the priveilege...

[MudDuck]

We see this time, and time again. I do think we need to draw back the teeth a little, on our initial replies.

There is a fine line between being stern and being abusive, although I will say that most on here do not cross that line.

I do agree with the sentiment here that you should do your reading first before just jumping in, but it must be remembered that what people get from that reading is dependent on the quality of the archive available. Telling someone to "read read read" doesn't do much good when all the relevant info is buried under a big steaming pile of threads brought to abrupt ends by rants about spoon feeding. Things have settled down now but for a while this was getting out of hand, as someone who primarily used this site as an archive I have seen the damage done to its usefulness. A little thought about how a post will effect the sites usefulness in the long run before hitting that post button can go a long way toward maintaining the quality of the archive.

Anyway that's my $0.02, take it for what it's worth.

[blind drunk]

Nicely put and guilty as charged (me that is).

[mash rookie]

I told myself to just shut up and actually deleted my first draft. Screw it. I am not as nice as Husker of Mudduck

I think you two are the worst offenders at being rude to guests. Guests that could be new members.
You don’t just treat this like a good old boys club, you treat it like your own private club and are selective about who you want in.

I have seen many guests run off after just a few posts. Is that what Uncle Jesse wants?

This is the site for beginning distillers if you want them to be part of the community its necessary to be polite to them.

As for how to reduce the repeated answering of questions, we can't fix human nature so a majority of people will always ask for help before helping themselves... And we don't have the option of human conditioning shock collars, darn it...!!!

”

honestly think a major part of the problem is new members only reading what they want to read or think they should read instead of doing intensive reading... When new member go and just read, as suggested, they realize that they need to read more in order to have a full grasp of the underlying theories surrounding hobby scale home distillation...

Rad, You are appear burned out on answering questions repeatedly. Have you lost the ability to be polite? You seem to judge them as lazy or stupid.

“They don't want to be better prepared. They want spoon fed answers to just the questions they have.”

PP, you have no excuse for being rude or impatient with newbes. You are a new mentor. If you are not in the mood to be polite and helpful just don’t respond. Wait for one of the more polite mentors to answer the questions. You don’t have to respond to every post. You write long thought out posts in theory threads but will give a newbe a one sentence response and a link. Maybe you should transfer to the research and development division so you don’t have to deal with them.

And as long as I am RANTING at MENTORS

Larry, What the hell was that all about last week? You jumped all over my thread last week babbling nonsense just to pick on a new guy. Was that aimed at me or did you decide you didn’t like the guy? You are usually quite polite with new guys.???

I would suggest that you guys look up the definition of Mentor. Take the title seriously! You say you don’t want to have to hold their hands. Isn’t that what a mentor does? The more experienced helping, advising and nurturing the less experienced?

Yeah. I am sure you guys hate me. I don’t care. If you think I am full of shit, I can post dozens if not hundreds of your posts as example of your behavior.

The biggest problem is I now see guys with fifty posts repeating the same stuff responding to a post like it is company policy to not help someone until there questions sound good enough. Rudeness spreads like a venereal disease and everybody gets fucked.

Damn, I miss having Rubber Duck around to politley tell me when to shut up.
Mash Rookie

[Oxbo Rene]

You been drinkin ain't ya !?!??
I know where ya comin from, I've done my time soundin off too.

Just keep comin back ! ! !