Opinions Wanted(just be gentle lol)

[vance71975]

I have put together a rough recipe based loosely off of "UJSSM" that i would like to run by everyone here.

I have on hand Beer brewing Grains that are "past their prime" for use in beer which is where this comes together, ok they are just plain 3 years old cause i bought to much back when i had money and never got them used up. I have managed to call in a debt a friend owed me(a whopping 5 bucks lol) and i have 7 lbs of cracked Corn, 2 lbs Dark Brown Sugar,and 10 lbs of light brown sugar. So here is the Recipe i have came up with.


7lbs Cracked Corn
5lbs 6row malt
2lbs Dark Brown Sugar
10lbs Light Brown Sugar
Red Star Pasteur Champagne Yeast(had it on hand from my winemaking)
5 teaspoons yeast energizer ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)

The Process i plan to use is as follows. Cereal Mash on the Corn(IE boil it for 1.5 hours) to extract the starch, Mash in with enough water to lower the temp to 152, Stir in the 6 row for conversion, and let sit for 4 days covered in my round cooler mash tun. Drain into fermenter and Sparge with enough water to equal 5 gallons, Add Sugars and stir till dissolved Mix in yeast energizer and Acid Blend, Pitch with yeast and let ferment out until complete. I am going to take a chance this one time, and NOT do a boil, which is against my sanitation process totally, but the aim here IS a sour mash after all.

So let me know what you all think.

[Prairiepiss]

That is way to much sugar. The water and sugar alone is damn near 19%. Not including what you will get from the grains.

[vance71975]

That is way to much sugar. The water and sugar alone is damn near 19%. Not including what you will get from the grains.

I got 17.77% total for water and sugar and grains using the Beersmith Program and that is an estimated %, so basically that is Best case highest you will get, which is normally off on the high side from my personal experience, Normally when it says 17% you end up somewhere around 15%. Plus i am doing a 4 day sour mash, so i will lose some sugars by conversion to acids from the bacteria on the grains so i will end up with less sugars from the grains that i actually should have. Not to mention, its brown sugar so its not fully fermentable, but i can lower the sugar, how many pounds do you think would be right? BTW the water and sugar alone comes out to 10.90% Estimated. How did you come up with 19%?

[Bushman]

The original UJ calls for 5 gallons of water, with the added grain I would up your water from 4.5 to around 6 to 6-1/2 gallons with your current recipe and give it ago!

[vance71975]

The original UJ calls for 5 gallons of water, with the added grain I would up your water from 4.5 to around 6 to 6-1/2 gallons with your current recipe and give it ago!

Up the water, gotcha!

[Prairiepiss]

If you go by the calculator on the parent site with just the sugar. 12 lbs with a total ferment volume of 4.5 gals. It comes out to SG 1.22 water needed 3.61 gals and a potential of 18.8 ABV.

Even if your numbers are right. Most will recommend a max of 14% ABV. And 10% to 12% being the best range to stay in.

I would mash the grains. See what you get. Then add sugar to bring it up to 12%. If it was me.

And if your going for a sour mash? Where is the sour mashing coming from? You would need to add backset or lactic souring before the mashing. Something to help break down the corn before mashing. After all its called sour mashing not sour fermenting? Wouldn't you? Or am I way off here.

I would back off on the yeast Energizer too. If your going to stick with this hobby it will get used. And the grains are going to add plenty of nutrients.

[Prairiepiss]

Ok I just read your other post about the oak. Seams to me the best way for you to proceed. Taking the fact you are broke. You have enough ingredients to make two batches here.

I would mash the grains. When your done with the mashing. Split the liquid and grains in two. Add water and split the sugar between the two. Ferment on the grain like UJSSM. To get as much flavor as you can. And go for it. This way you would have two batches you could do a stripping run on. Then combine them for a spirit run. And I bet you would be much happier with the end product.

[Durace11]

5 teaspoons yeast energizer ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)

The Process i plan to use is as follows. Cereal Mash on the Corn(IE boil it for 1.5 hours) to extract the starch, Mash in with enough water to lower the temp to 152, Stir in the 6 row for conversion, and let sit for 4 days covered in my round cooler mash tun. Drain into fermenter and Sparge with enough water to equal 4.5 gallons, Add Sugars and stir till dissolved Mix in yeast energizer and Acid Blend, Pitch with yeast and let ferment out until complete.

So let me know what you all think.

5 teaspoons yeast energizer (I'd use maybe 1 tsp with this batch, you probably could get by with zero)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend (I'd skip this altogether, if you lower you ph too far it will not ferment)
As stated earlier, back way off the sugar. It sounds like you are doing a snowflake. In doing so you may be setting yourself up for a disappointment. Just because you have it on hand doesn't mean you need to throw it in the mash bucket. Why not throw in a tuna sandwich too !

I can see where you are going with the sour mash but I'm not sure you are going to get exactly what you want to get out of it. If you are going for a lacto sour mash then you want to reserve a handful of 6-row and add it when the temp gets right around 100°F. That "should" add some lacto bacteria from the grain husks into the mash to sour it up. Also, the lacto will produce lactic acid so watch your ph levels, if you add all that acid blend and let it sour up with a 4 day lactic rest I forsee lots of

[vance71975]

If you go by the calculator on the parent site with just the sugar. 12 lbs with a total ferment volume of 4.5 gals. It comes out to SG 1.22 water needed 3.61 gals and a potential of 18.8 ABV.

Even if your numbers are right. Most will recommend a max of 14% ABV. And 10% to 12% being the best range to stay in.

I would mash the grains. See what you get. Then add sugar to bring it up to 12%. If it was me.

And if your going for a sour mash? Where is the sour mashing coming from? You would need to add backset or lactic souring before the mashing. Something to help break down the corn before mashing. After all its called sour mashing not sour fermenting? Wouldn't you? Or am I way off here.

I would back off on the yeast Energizer too. If your going to stick with this hobby it will get used. And the grains are going to add plenty of nutrients.

Beersmith is fairly accurate, i am thinking that calculator you used is off by quite a bit, If i was using white sugar, i would agree but Brown sugar has non-fermentables in it from Molasses, so it wont ferment out totally. I also Figured on a 5 gallon total volume not 3.61 gallons so that makes a big difference.

Ok i will explain the sour mashing i am doing, it is a method commonly used in beer brewing to make Sour Beers so that you can control the level of sour in them, you have two choices when making a sour beer, you can do a "sour Mash" Or you can mash as normal,boil,ferment and add a bacteria culture such as Lactic Acid Bacteria or Brett to the finished beer, the problem in doing it the second way, is that you have no control, aside from drinking it fast once it is where you want it, on how sour it gets, This is where doing a "sour Mash" comes in. You do your mash as normal, Hit your target mash temp, But instead of Draining and Sparging, you let the mash set for anywhere from 1-7 days depending on how sour you want the beer. Once the mash is "as sour as you want it", you then Drain, Sparge,and Boil. This allows you to get a sour beer and make sure it never gets any more sour than it was when you started fermenting it because you have boiled the wort and killed the bacteria, but left the acid they already created behind in the beer.

When you Boil the Corn, you "gelatnize" the starch, that is you extract it out of the corn and make it available for conversion to sugar by the enzymes in the 6 row malt. The Souring comes from dropping the temp of the corn down to 152, then adding the 6 row. The 6 row, since it has not been boiled, will have Lactic Acid Bacteria On it, 152 is not hot enough to kill those bacteria, So as you let the mash set, in the first couple hours conversion from starch to sugar happens and the temp starts dropping, once the temp hits around 120-130, the bacteria on the grain, which are now in the mash water, kick in and start eating the sugar and producing Acid as a waste this is what "sours the mash", So you will end up, after 4 days, which a fairly large amount of Lactic Acid Sourness. I wouldn't say your way off, this is just a different approach to a sour mash than most distillers use, this Approach is most often used by Beer brewers, but the end result is the same, the Mash itself gets Soured before it goes in the fermenter. The whole "there is more than one way to skin a cat" type thing.

[vance71975]

5 teaspoons yeast energizer ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)

The Process i plan to use is as follows. Cereal Mash on the Corn(IE boil it for 1.5 hours) to extract the starch, Mash in with enough water to lower the temp to 152, Stir in the 6 row for conversion, and let sit for 4 days covered in my round cooler mash tun. Drain into fermenter and Sparge with enough water to equal 4.5 gallons, Add Sugars and stir till dissolved Mix in yeast energizer and Acid Blend, Pitch with yeast and let ferment out until complete.

So let me know what you all think.

5 teaspoons Acid Blend (I'd skip this altogether, if you lower you ph too far it will not ferment)

I am using a Champagne yeast, that will ferment well in an acid environment, i would agree with you on the statement "if you lower you pH too far it will not ferment" if i was using a beer yeast or a bakers yeast, they are less tolerant of Acid than the Champagne yeast, 5 teaspoons of acid blend is actually the standard amount and doesn't lower the pH a huge amount in 5 gallons of wort (i also have fairly hard water starting pH is around 8 ) not that it would matter as i have used this same yeast to ferment a soured beer wort that was around 5 pH and it fermented with no problems and made a very nice sour beer. The way i am doing this, i should end up with a pH of 6 or 6.5 somewhere in that ballpark which will be no problem at all for the selected yeast.

[Prairiepiss]

I also Figured on a 5 gallon total volume not 3.61 gallons so that makes a big difference.

Ok I read your intentions wrong. So 12 lbs of sugar to make up a total volume of 5 gallons. Would be 4.11 gallons of water and a SG of 1.110 and potential of 16.9% ABV. Even with unfermentables in it. I would still say its high. Just because they are unfermentable doesn't mean they won't stress the yeast.

Just seams to me that for someone who is so broke. You sure are trying to waste a lot of ingredients.

Hell you got enough ingredients there to do one 5 gal batch of AG whiskey and two 5 gal batches of rum. Yrs they will be low ABV. But you would get much better flavor out of them.

But thats my opinion. Take it as you want. You obviously know more then me. Have fun.

[vance71975]

I also Figured on a 5 gallon total volume not 3.61 gallons so that makes a big difference.

Ok I read your intentions wrong. So 12 lbs of sugar to make up a total volume of 5 gallons. Would be 4.11 gallons of water and a SG of 1.110 and potential of 16.9% ABV. Even with unfermentables in it. I would still say its high. Just because they are unfermentable doesn't mean they won't stress the yeast.

Just seams to me that for someone who is so broke. You sure are trying to waste a lot of ingredients.

Hell you got enough ingredients there to do one 5 gal batch of AG whiskey and two 5 gal batches of rum. Yrs they will be low ABV. But you would get much better flavor out of them.

But thats my opinion. Take it as you want. You obviously know more then me. Have fun.

When i say 5 gallons total volume, i mean 5 gallons of Wort or Water BEFORE the sugar is added, not figuring water displacement and lowering the water amount to hit 5 gallons dead on once the sugar is added. I will pull 5 gallons of wort, and add the 12lbs of sugar to that.

Never said i knew more than you, don't take it that way, you asked as if you didn't understand and i answered. 2 batches IS possible as i have 2 packages of yeast. The Abv WILL be below the stress point for this strain of yeast, by about 2%, As I said, I do know my yeast strains very well, and have spent MANY hours reading up on them.

So i guess what i need to know, is their any other reason, besides "fear of stressing the yeast" to keep the abv below 14%? Because i have done a barley wine, with this yeast, and with another strain of yeast, White labs super high gravity, neither one exhibited ANY off flavors, which are the first sign of yeast stress and both were in the 15 to 20 % abv range.

Do consider, i Aerate with PURE Oxygen and a stainless steel aeration stone, I supply ample nutrient for they yeast, and I am well versed in High Abv fermentation's(Above 15% abv). I have no doubt you you more than likely know far more about the distillation process than i do, i do not question that, so please do not question the fact that i know exactly what i am doing on the fermentation side and especially high abv fermentation's, after all i do have 20 years experience doing fermentation.

[Prairiepiss]

Your not making a beer or a barley wine. You won't be drinking the fermented product. So you need to work towards getting the best flavors possible in the distilled product. Even though you may not taste the difference in a high ABV ferment like you have done. When you distill it it will be a different story. It will come through as more heads and or tails. And non drinkable. So its a waste of time and money. And with a higher ABV ferment less of the good flavors you are looking for will come over to the finished product.

[vance71975]

Your not making a beer or a barley wine. You won't be drinking the fermented product. So you need to work towards getting the best flavors possible in the distilled product. Even though you may not taste the difference in a high ABV ferment like you have done. When you distill it it will be a different story. It will come through as more heads and or tails. And non drinkable. So its a waste of time and money. And with a higher ABV ferment less of the good flavors you are looking for will come over to the finished product.

AHHHHH OK see now that makes sense. Ok so i will take your above suggestion, run the mash collect enough for 10 gallons and split it into two buckets.

[RumRaider]

Vance
stopntrying to get your ego stroked about your knowledge of fermentation. It is irritating to people here to learn and is obviously pissing off the people who are still willing to help you.
if you want to experiment with high abv, do it. If you had been listening instead of trying to impress, you would already know that the only reason to limit abv is to avoid stressing the yeast into off flavors. You have been told before that high abv is going to mess up your booze. Do what you want and stop trolling.

[vance71975]

Vance
stopntrying to get your ego stroked about your knowledge of fermentation. It is irritating to people here to learn and is obviously pissing off the people who are still willing to help you.
if you want to experiment with high abv, do it. If you had been listening instead of trying to impress, you would already know that the only reason to limit abv is to avoid stressing the yeast into off flavors. You have been told before that high abv is going to mess up your booze. Do what you want and stop trolling.

The point your missing is i KNOW HOW to ferment high abv WITHOUT STRESSING the yeast. It has nothing at all to do with my ego and if you knew as much about fermentation as i do, you would also know how to ferment to 20% abv with NO YEAST STRESS. It is all about picking the right strain of yeast, using proper nutrient levels, pure oxygen,and temperature controls.

So before you come at me with that attitude, ill give you the same suggestion people here like to give, TRY DOING SOME RESEARCH YOU CAN FERMENT HIGH ABV WITH NO YEAST STRESS IF YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOUR DOING!

[RumRaider]

I already did the research and stand by my opinion of you.

[vance71975]

I already did the research and stand by my opinion of you.

LMAO apparently you didn't do the research or you would know i am right. Either way, i don't really care what you think of me so it does not much matter.

[RumRaider]

I already did the research and stand by my opinion of you.

LMAO apparently you didn't do the research or you would know i am right. Either way, i don't really care what you think of me so it does not much matter.

Perhaps you can use your breakthrough method to make a buck.

[Prairiepiss]

Enough with the chest pounding. let's get back on topic!

[FantsGrove]

i like the idea of splitting the wort and then splitting the sugar as well into to two 5gal...this way you can ferment at a higher but not outrageous potential abv and then spirit run the two strips

[rubber duck]

The point is, It's the intertube no reason to get all upset.

[vance71975]

The point is, It's the intertube no reason to get all upset.

lol

[vance71975]

So here is the Revised Plan


10lbs Cracked Corn
5lbs 6row malt
5lbs table sugar(maybe Corn sugar)
Red Star Pasteur Champagne Yeast(had it on hand from my winemaking)
5 teaspoons yeast energizer ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)


Which Puts me at 12.67% and Saves the Brown Sugar to do a rum batch later. Sound better?

[Prairiepiss]

Go for it.

[whiskeytripping]

Vance I wouldn't use the yeast energizer or acid blend, I haven't used it for any of my corn/2-row malt washes and they have NEVER stalled, I'm not sure if your wanting to sour mash this by running it several times, but when you put your backseat back in it will be WAY too acidic. Just cause you have it and need to use it kinda goes back to the tunafish sandwich theory earlier either ways, run it already

[vance71975]

Vance I wouldn't use the yeast energizer or acid blend, I haven't used it for any of my corn/2-row malt washes and they have NEVER stalled, I'm not sure if your wanting to sour mash this by running it several times, but when you put your backseat back in it will be WAY too acidic. Just cause you have it and need to use it kinda goes back to the tunafish sandwich theory earlier either ways, run it already

Nope ill be doing Mash Souring. 4-7 day long Mash, then into the fermenter, I got to thinking about it and i prolly WONT use it, i will need it when i do the rum wash with the 12lbs Brown Sugar i got.

[Washashore]

If you've got any bean-o tabs kicking' around save those for your rum wash too. There's a fair amount of unfermentables in molasses that can be broken down for the little yeasties and git ya a little better efficiency.

[rad14701]

vance71975, it would do you well to leave half of what you think you know about brewing beer at the door... All that information is doing is clouding the waters... When we ferment for distillation we don't want any unfermented sugar remaining, unlike beer and wine... Because we distill the wash we would be wasting those remaining fermentables... Plus you get the extra heads and tails, so the benefits really aren't there... And then there is the possibility of thermal runaway due to the excess grain and sugar...

We know it can be hard to resist the greed factor that many novice distillers fall victim to... We really do know what we're talking about and it's highly unlikely that the theories in your head, because you're just tossing ingredients together "hoping" they will yield the results you have imagined, are going to prove us wrong... Getting lucky doesn't equal repeatable successful results...

Less arguing and more learning...

[vance71975]

So here is the Revised Plan


10lbs Cracked Corn
5lbs 6row malt
5lbs table sugar(maybe Corn sugar)
Red Star Pasteur Champagne Yeast(had it on hand from my winemaking)
5 teaspoons yeast energizer ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)
5 teaspoons Acid Blend ( i have it on hand and it needs used up)


Which Puts me at 12.67% and Saves the Brown Sugar to do a rum batch later. Sound better?

WOOO BUDDY a Sour mash it will be, smells like corn and vomit and its only 2 days into the sour Mash, its still got 2 days left to go!