SSVR question - MuleKicker?

[Xecros]

Did you not understand how my outlets are 110V?

the electrician installed a double CB. Voltage off that CB is 220V. That 220V was then ran to the outlet under my sink, where a single main was used to power that outlet, making that outlet 110V. He then ran the other main to another outlet, roughly 3 feet away, to power another outlet, making it 110 volts. Think of it this way, it's a 220V circuit used to power 2 110V outlets. I'm simply putting it back to 220V.

Now, I could just flip that double CB breaker, tear into the outlet under my sink, unhook the one main from that outlet, then disconnect the main from the other outlet, then wire in both those mains into a single 220V outlet under my sink. It would all be compliant with code, any electrician would sign off on it. But, this is an apartment, rewiring like that would probably make my apartment complex manager, not very happy plus its a lot of work squatting under my sink, no thanks.

So, rather than tearing into my outlets to wire up a 220V outlet, I'm going to keep it outside the wall. I'm gonna run extension cords from each outlet, wire in the mains from each extension cord into a single 220V outlet. I don't see the problem.

Now, you are right, it's a 20 amp circuit. I measured the voltage across those two mains, and it's sitting at 243V. round it down to 240 volts. A 240V, 20Amp breaker, equals a max wattage of 4800 watts before the breakers trip. Soooooo, guess i'm not using my 6000 watt element. Good thing I haven't opened the package yet. First thing in the morning i'm exchanging it for a 4000 watt element. That brings me up to a max of 16.666 amps. 3.334 amps shy of the circuit max.

It's unconventional, it's completely against code, but it will be safe, and it will work, and I'm going to do it!

[Xecros]

Now to address your concerns that I'm a blithering idiot who has no experience with electricity, CB's, amperage, wattage, etc..etc..

I have installed CB's into a fuse box before. I have wired up lighting. I have wired up outlets. I even fixed a grounding problem with my parents electrical system in their house.

I know how electricity works. amperage, voltage, using the appropriate wire gauge for a the rated amps of a circuit.

Now, I'm the type of guy who believes the evidence, even if that evidence contradicts what something should be. In this case, me not having 220v in my fuse box.

As stated before, I have 3 double CB's. 1 40 amp, 2 20 amps. The 40 amp is for my AC and is direct wired, I had no real way of measuring the voltage(without taking my fusebox panel off and measuring across the CB.)

1 20 amp double CB was marked as, Stove and Microwave. I found the outlet for the stove, but not the microwave, so I figured the microwave was direct wired to. I measured the voltage of the outlet my stove is plugged into...110V. So, I have a double CB, which should be 220 volts, but measuring only 110 volts at the outlet.

The 2nd 20 amp double CB, is marked for my dishwasher, and garbage disposal. So, I look under the sink. Sure enough, one outlet there. 2 things plugged in. I follow the cords, and one leads to the disposal, and the other leads to the dishwasher. I measured the voltage in each receptacle of the outlet, and it reads 110V. So, I have another double CB, which should be 220V, but measuring 110V at the outlet.

Evidence says, I don't have 220V! So that's what I believe....until I pulled the panel off my fusebox, and saw the 2 mains coming in, and measured the voltage across the mains. Now i'm confused. I have 2, 220V circuits going to outlets that measure only 110V. So I got to thinking about it, and came up with a theory, maybe the electrician got lazy with running cable. instead of running 2 cables from the fusebox for 2 different 110v outlets, he wired up a 220V circuit to power two outlets at 110V. This required only 1 cable run, instead of two. I bet he also did it to bank some money. My complex is over 200 apartments. saving himself 2 cable runs for each apartment adds up to a nice chunk of change.

If you still believe i'm not capable of wiring up a 220V outlet from my 2 110V outlets, (that are being powered from a 220V circuit), that's fine. I'll post the pics of the setup, including my multi-meter measuring 240 volts, when I complete the project next week.

[Prairiepiss]

Yes it can be done. Should it no. Just because you think it will be ok. Because you are the one using. Doesn't make it any safer. If you were in the middle of a run. And something was to happen to you. Then someone else will have to deal with the crazy controller. Not knowing what going on with it. They would more then likely only unplug one plug in. That could leave the plug on that end hot. Now you have exposed hot wires. This would actually hold true every time you go to unplug it. So now your sanding there with a potential live conductor in your hand.

Your best bet is to wire a 220v plug at that junction in your kitchen. A lot easier then two cords. And the worries about it.

[rad14701]

+1 on what Prariepiss said... It can be done but it's very dangerous... We don't need pictures because we don't want others with even less experience than you attempting it, Xecros...

And there are multiple reasons for the electrician to have used the double circuit breakers... Saving on wire runs is just one... Another is that if both circuits are prone to high loads it can at times be safer to have more than one circuit trip from opposite sides of the bus, especially with todays high tech electronics...

Furthermore, you don't get a choice in who replies to your questions or how they do so... If the management here feels that something is over the top then they will address it... If they leave it alone then it might be because they want there to be a small amount of uneasiness when the questioner reads it... Kinda like adding a does of humbling reality into the mix... It is very rarely a personal attack, just an attention getter...

[F6Hawk]

Now to address your concerns that I'm a blithering idiot

I don't believe anyone called you any names, just said it's dangerous and shouldn't be done.

Evidence says, I don't have 220V! So that's what I believe....

The fact that you saw double-pole CBs in your box and argued against 220v is why some here may think you don't know enough about 220 electricity.

Just be careful, please...

[Halfbaked]

Xecros I truly believe you are better going to your local govt likker store and buying your drop. 2nd option is make beer on the stove. I have interest in that also and it would be a hoot. I truly think you are going to hurt yourself and/or someone else and I don't want that to happen. If you don't like that maybe cook it on the stove. 3d option If you don't like that and insist on doing this with electricity pay an electrician to wire your a 220 outlet and buy yourself a controller. There is not shame in that. I would bet 50% of the electric operated people here paid someone and bought their stuff. You do not need to be taping into electricity or making a controller. . I do not mean any disrespect to you what so ever and safety is my main concern

If you still have this notion to go forward with the project go back and read all the posts on this thread 2 or 3 times and then post again what problems you see. You said and I quote "Now, I'm the type of guy who believes the evidence, even if that evidence contradicts what something should be" The evidence is in the posts. Electricity forgives no one even if you have good intentions.

220 in a breaker box by looking at breakers is so obvious even by a beginner. I am not an expert but have never heard of raising voltage by using a dp breaker and it still being 110.

[Xecros]

Now to address your concerns that I'm a blithering idiot

I don't believe anyone called you any names, just said it's dangerous and shouldn't be done.

Evidence says, I don't have 220V! So that's what I believe....

The fact that you saw double-pole CBs in your box and argued against 220v is why some here may think you don't know enough about 220 electricity.

Just be careful, please...

It's not what you did, or did not call me. It's what was implied...

[Xecros]

220 in a breaker box by looking at breakers is so obvious even by a beginner. I am not an expert but have never heard of raising voltage by using a dp breaker and it still being 110.

Your right, it's extremely obvious, so imagine my surprise when I measured only 110V at the outlets!

[Xecros]

Yes it can be done. Should it no. Just because you think it will be ok. Because you are the one using. Doesn't make it any safer. If you were in the middle of a run. And something was to happen to you. Then someone else will have to deal with the crazy controller. Not knowing what going on with it. They would more then likely only unplug one plug in. That could leave the plug on that end hot. Now you have exposed hot wires. This would actually hold true every time you go to unplug it. So now your sanding there with a potential live conductor in your hand.

Your best bet is to wire a 220v plug at that junction in your kitchen. A lot easier then two cords. And the worries about it.

My controller box will have a power switch wired in, with LED indicators showing power. If you want to secure power to my still, you flip the switch on my controller box.

[Xecros]

+1 on what Prariepiss said... It can be done but it's very dangerous... We don't need pictures because we don't want others with even less experience than you attempting it, Xecros...

And there are multiple reasons for the electrician to have used the double circuit breakers... Saving on wire runs is just one... Another is that if both circuits are prone to high loads it can at times be safer to have more than one circuit trip from opposite sides of the bus, especially with todays high tech electronics...

Furthermore, you don't get a choice in who replies to your questions or how they do so... If the management here feels that something is over the top then they will address it... If they leave it alone then it might be because they want there to be a small amount of uneasiness when the questioner reads it... Kinda like adding a does of humbling reality into the mix... It is very rarely a personal attack, just an attention getter...

Call it what you like, I call an electrician who wires up 2 110 outlets with a 220 circuit, just plain lazy and willing to cut corners to save a buck.

I didn't care who replied to my thread, I've always enjoyed a good debate!

[Halfbaked]

Unless you have a specialty outlet like a stove or dryer or air compressor then all outlets in a residential setting will be 110v in US. If it is a 220 it will have a special 220v outlet on it that a 110 will not plug in. How many clocks or tvs or lamps do you have that work on 220. If you hook up to a 220 they go boom. I do not want to see this happen with you or your still. Hire a professional to do wiring and buy controller with the options you want. They are not that expensive. Everyone here is trying to help you, forget what your dad says about sticking to what you think. In this case he is horribly wrong.

You are not lazy by calling an electrician. We are not trying to debate with you either. There is nothing here to debate.

[Prairiepiss]

You say you will have a switch on it. Is that switch rated for 20 amp 220v? Not something you can find anywhere.


You have obviously made up your mind. And now want to prove you can do it. Nothing we say will sink in. Good luck.

[LWTCS]

On the double pole breaker,,,,one side of the breaker will register at 120 (or the like) and the other side will register at 120 (or the like) for a total of 220 volts (or the like).

[Xecros]

You say you will have a switch on it. Is that switch rated for 20 amp 220v? Not something you can find anywhere.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-30-A ... ghkCTHn-70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

You have obviously made up your mind. And now want to prove you can do it. Nothing we say will sink in. Good luck.

I was/am going to do it regardless. I need 220V to bring my 19 liters up to temperature as quickly as possible. It can be done with 110V, but it would take extra time...extra time I don't want to spend, if I don't have to.

Unless you have a specialty outlet like a stove or dryer or air compressor then all outlets in a residential setting will be 110v in US. If it is a 220 it will have a special 220v outlet on it that a 110 will not plug in.

Yep, I agree with you. 100%! Doesn't change the fact that the electrician ran a 220V circuit and split it between 2 outlets. 1 main, powers one outlet at 110V, the other main, powers the other outlet at 110V. You do know that you get 220V from two 110V mains, 180 degrees out of phase right? I've said this at least 4 different times in this thread. If you still don't understand how that's possible, or you still don't believe me, then lets just drop it. I know I'm right. I'm the one who's here. I'm the one who tested the outlets and the CB's.

[Xecros]

On the double pole breaker,,,,one side of the breaker will register at 120 (or the like) and the other side will register at 120 (or the like) for a total of 220 volts (or the like).

Exactly so, assuming your measuring each side of the breaker against ground.

If you attach your multimeter to both sides of the breaker, it will read 220V.

[FullySilenced]

However running 110/120v plugs off one side of a 220 breaker is not exactly safe.... last i was told...

do we have a sparky who can elaborate on that?

[F6Hawk]

Not exactly unsafe, FS, more of an annoyance. Get a short in one circuit, it will kill both. Good practice? Absolutely not. Is probably an existing breaker where there is no longer a need for 220v (say am electric stove replaced by a gas stove), but the person was too cheap/uneducated to split the breakers up.

As long as X wires the new outlet as a 220v one, so no one accidentally plugs in 110v down the road, all should be good. But he HAS to ensure that each wire from that 2-pole CB goes NOWHERE else in his house before using them together to be safe. And it sounds like he's all over it.

[FullySilenced]

F6Hawk
My 220v heavy circuit has a 50amp breaker on it... the welder 220v circuit has a 75 amp on one, 100 amp on the other breaker...

either of these would fry melt burn an extension cord before throwing the circuit... I am thinking not safe at this point...just running off one side and as you indicated other circuits could react with this one...

IF you had a lamp on the second side of the 220 circuit and for some reason grounded yourself between the two phases ... you would get a 220v shock...... you can survive a 220v shock and in the right instance you may not as well if the amperage is there....

Just my thoughts... I would dang sure get the circuits i use set up with ground fault sockets....... if i tried this one...

Be Safe as your not replaceable to your loved ones...

FS

[Xecros]

F6Hawk
My 220v heavy circuit has a 50amp breaker on it... the welder 220v circuit has a 75 amp on one, 100 amp on the other breaker...

That's awesome. Of course, I don't see how that applies to my proposed setup. The highest breaker in my fusebox is 40amps and that's directly wired to my AC.

either of these would fry melt burn an extension cord before throwing the circuit... I am thinking not safe at this point...just running off one side and as you indicated other circuits could react with this one...

Well, it's a good thing my 220V circuit is only 20 Amps. there are 20 Amp extension cords out there, I just spent the last 10 minutes googling them. They don't have your standard 110V receptacle though, but I can fix that.

IF you had a lamp on the second side of the 220 circuit and for some reason grounded yourself between the two phases ... you would get a 220v shock...... you can survive a 220v shock and in the right instance you may not as well if the amperage is there....

As I've said a few times before in this thread, my 220V 20 Amp circuit is wired up, to exactly 2 outlets. When I run my still, rest assured, nothing else will be plugged into those outlets.

Just my thoughts... I would dang sure get the circuits i use set up with ground fault sockets....... if i tried this one...

Everything will be wired up correctly. All grounds connected to ground, even my still will be grounded....

[Soggy Bottom Boy]

.
.
First you said this:

......... Yes, my stove is gas, ........

....then this:

......... So I pulled out my stove from the wall, unplugged the stove, stuck my leads in the socket, 110V! .........

........ I'm confused!

Does your gas stove have piezo ignition and/or a clock, or electronics that needs electricity? Does it have a 230v pigtail that plugs in to a 230v receptacle? If it does, and the receptacle actually is truly only putting out 115v, and the stove is wired correctly internally, then everything on the stove is running on 57 volts, at half voltage. Are you sure you know how to use a multi-meter?

Like I said, I am confused by this whole thing. If I lived in that place, I would be calling the county electrical inspector to come in and check it out before I died in a fire caused by a landlord that was either:
1. Doing his own electrical work.
or,
2. Hiring a sub-par electrician that has no idea of what conforming to Electrical Code is all about.

....but then again, I am not the one who is sleeping there.

[bellybuster]

Ganged 220 circuit breakers are simply that, 2 standard breakers ganged together with the trip mechanism ganged as well. (Through the switch toggle itself being one piece) Wiring 110 volt circuits from a ganged breaker is common in situations where 220 is not required and loaded breaker boxes are bought for the install. (Apartment buildings). It's the cheap and lazy way and probably no longer meets code although from a safety standpoint there is no issue.
What you are planning with the extension cords will work but isn't recommended due to it just not being right. The ganged breakers share a trip mechanism so if one leg shorts, both sides trip so you're covered there as long as you know both legs come from the same breaker.

Personally I would do it right or come up with an alternative like rewriting the Ac to a receptacle that can be unplugged and used for the still. For insurance purposes, hire an electrician for this.

[janee]

if the ac is hard wired "with no disconect" it would be a violation of the, national electrical code,

[Prairiepiss]

if the ac is hard wired "with no disconect" it would be a violation of the, national electrical code,

I noticed that to. But it being an apartment. I'm guessing it has a disconnect and main fuse at the service entrance to the building. This would be a sub panel. That depending when it was built or installed. May or may not have needed one for code. The fact that it is there. Tells me it was before many of the new codes. There was a sub panel in this house when we bought it. Didn't have a main breaker on it. But I took it and the little main panel out and installed a 200 amp service panel. I can't stand shabby electrical work. I like my things and family. And I wouldn't want to lose them to something I could have fixed.

[janee]

he said the ac breaker was in his panel, you can have a main disconect,but it wont qualify as an equpment disconect

[Prairiepiss]

he said the ac breaker was in his panel, you can have a main disconect,but it wont qualify as an equpment disconect

Oh I se what your saying. But I don't remember him saying he was going to hard wire it? He was talking about using two 110v extension cords. Even though its dangerous. That would qualify as a disconnect. Would it not?

[goose eye]

Yup read that unplugged stove then it was gas.
Sometimes you read tracks for what they is other
times to where they trying to lead you.

So IM Tole

[Lunabrille]

Regardless of your research, planning and skills... please take into consideration the saftey of the neighbors in your complex before you proceed.

If it was your own house in the middle of nowhere I would have kept my yap shut, but experimenting with 220 in an apartment complex would be enough for me to rethink things.

[Xecros]

Ok, try to picture this in your head.

I have two 110 outlets, roughly 3 feet apart, being powered by a single 220 circuit. (1 main to each outlet)

I'm going to build my voltage controller. On this controller, i'm going to wire in 2 receptacles. 1 of my 110 outlets, gets plugged into one receptacle via an extension cord. The other 110 outlet, gets plugged into the other receptacle. So now my voltage controller is plugged into 2, 110V outlets.

Now, on the inside of my controller box, I make all appropriate wire connections for my SSR, Pot, Amp meter, ect.., and I wire in a 220 outlet. now, with a 3rd extension cord, I take one end, and wire it to my heating element, and fasten a high temperature rubber boot I made to cover the exposed electricals. The other end of this cord plugs into my newly wired 220 outlet on my controller box.

No exposed wiring, and all wiring rated for 20 amps. Other than the fact that it's highly unconventional, I see nothing unsafe with this plan.

[Xecros]

Yup read that unplugged stove then it was gas.
Sometimes you read tracks for what they is other
times to where they trying to lead you.

So IM Tole

Really? My gas stove has automatic electric ignition, and digital clock. To the best of my knowledge, automatic electric ignition, and a digital clock, can't run without electricity!

[Xecros]

Yup read that unplugged stove then it was gas.
Sometimes you read tracks for what they is other
times to where they trying to lead you.

So IM Tole

Really? My gas stove has automatic electric ignition, and digital clock. To the best of my knowledge, automatic electric ignition, and a digital clock, can't run without electricity!

I suppose that gas main, that you can clearly see, is my imagination......