Calling all VM operators...

[kiwistiller]

I just had a glance through the user list, and realised there aren't too many of us around! I've written up an operational guide to a VM in the reading lounge: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p6836182

If you have a VM and reckon you can run it well, it would be awesome if you can have a glance over that and tell me if you're doing anything vastly different, or if you think something is missing.
Cheers guys,
Kiwi

[WalkingWolf]

Very well thought out Kiwi. Will get a newb up and running that's for sure.

[Aces High]

Nice work Kiwi, set out very plane and simple. I run my VM pretty much identically to you so I dont have too much to add. Im surprised theres not more people using them as its IMHO the easiest still for neutral around. You hardly have to touch the unit right through the run.
Im even more cut throat than you on the tails. As soon as it goes up .2 and stays there I just shut it down. I might be wasting a bit of the end product, but I'm happy with what i've already got, no use in getting gready.

+1 on the bicarb, this makes a massive difference to the amount of heads you get. Put it in your low wines a day or 2 before the run if you can, if not, i've just put it in the keg when i start and it still seem to make a difference. I work on a teaspoon / litre, which was told to me by one of the old boys

[kiwistiller]

Cheers aces, how do you go on heads volumes? how much do you expect? Also, if you get some sodium carbonate, not bicarb, you don't have to wait. I think there is an ideal PH to aim for, but don't know it off the top of my head.

[Aces High]

Not sure about the exact amount, but I know it reduced the heads quantity massively. The heads were also much more concerntrated and smelt skanky so it was really easy to make the heads/hearts cut after using bicarb. Haven't tried sodium carbonate, but i'll give a go next time.

I've had everything in storage for about 6 months including my batch journal cause we moved into a new house, so I can't remember the exact figures. BUT...the guys are at my place today building my new 9 x 6m distillery / workshop, cant wait till its finished, im just itching to get distilling again... as you can tell i'm a little bit excited

[olddog]

..the guys are at my place today building my new 9 x 6m distillery / workshop

I'm envious, my workshop is 10'by 8' and I have to store everything including my wife's gardening stuff.


OD

[HookLine]

sodium bicarbonate = approx 1 tablespoon per litre. Wait 3-4 days before running it.

sodium carbonate = approx 1 teaspoon per litre. Can run it straight away.

(Or, just keep adding them until no more dissolves. A little excess is not going to hurt.)

I always do this trick when making neutral, and I use carbonate.

[Mud Mechanik]

Very informative Kiwi, I have been bringing it up to refluxing temp and holding for about 30 minutes with the takeoff valve closed, then opening valve 100% and collecting in 250ml jars until the takeoff temp. increases enough to slow down the takeoff rate. I then covered the jars with coffee filters and arranged them in the order they came out, the next day I give them all my best sniff test and keep the best and use the heads and tails as de-greaser around my shop. I will use your as a guide on the next run and hope that I can save more useable hearts out of my cuts. Thanks, MM

[Samohon]

Thanks Kiwi, great how to guide... Basically, I run the VM the way you described, the only difference being the fores and heads which I take off with the LM (Boka). The quantity of heads that I used to take dropped considerably after I started to use sodium bi-carbonate 4 days before a run, never have tried sodium carbonate, but will give it a go next time I take her out. The bi-carb really does help the cut from heads to hearts and I get it, IMO, right everytime.

I dont usually bother collecting the tails if she's been runnin for 12 - 15 hours, it really is an insignificant amount, but I do, on occation, open the LM all the way and collect them down to 30% if I want to build up my feigns carboy.

The key's to running the VM, IMO, are equalibriation, insulation, heat source adjustment and coolant adjustment. Temperature readings, tasting and smell are also primary factors as well, but once I hit my 'Sweet Spot', I can sit back and let her do her thing until I see the temps spike, then I know I'am getting near the end of my hearts collection. I do love the way the VM just stops when the abv drops, really makes the job a bit easier.

I always strip my wash's and dilute to 40% before runnin them with the VM, just makes life a little easier and ofcoarse the stripped wash is getting another distill making for a cleaner neutral. I initially take foreshots very slowly when stripping the wash, then take a marginal amount again once the spirit run is underway.

Thanks again for a very informative step by step and I will give sodium carbonate a go on my next run.
I'll also put up exact figures in this thread on quantities taken...

Thanks again man...

[Gr8brewer]

Ah this will be on a clipboard with me on my next run.

THANKS KIWI

[Oxbo Rene]

One thing I noticed the other day when I ran mine on that wine run (LM/VM),
The temp would dip when a breeze blew by.
Thinking about it, realizing that the temp probe is located between the slant plates, which are not insulated,
I believe it would be an improvement to insulate around the slant plates/temp probe also,
to better stabilize the temp readings, etc.......

[sparky marky]

Where do you guys get your sodium carbonate?
Iv bought a bag of soda crystals from the kitchen/home supplies aisle of the supermarket but it has all of these warnings on the back about being irritant, harmful and about not using it in drinking water. It says under ingredients that it is at least 30% sodium carbonate decahydrate but doesn't specify what else is in there.

Thoughts?

[clacker]

I'm getting my VM from Olddog soon and on top of all of my reading on theory and practice, will use this as my step-by-step on the day.

I guess the results speak for themselves but is there any benefit, as you start to get towards the end of hearts, to drop power, re-equalize and then take off at a slower rate to prevent smearing?

[Samohon]

I'm getting my VM from Olddog soon and on top of all of my reading on theory and practice, will use this as my step-by-step on the day.

I guess the results speak for themselves but is there any benefit, as you start to get towards the end of hearts, to drop power, re-equalize and then take off at a slower rate to prevent smearing?

If OD's doing the build, it'll be a corker of a system. Get some piccies and a description of your first run up here on the boards for us...

[clacker]

If OD's doing the build, it'll be a corker of a system. Get some piccies and a description of your first run up here on the boards for us...

Absolutely!

Going to have the smell of birdwatcher in the house for months now why I get familiar with the new still!

I know things never work out as well as the pre-run in my mind but I really feel I understand the basic theory and with OD's still and these instructions I might finally make a neutral that some bugger other than me will drink....

[sthudium]

The above VM operation procedure recommends using a reflux ratio of 1:1 to 2:1 during the heart run.

However, a reflux ratio of 9:1 is recommended in The Compleat Distiller and a reflux ratio of 10:1 is recommended in Making Gin & Vodka.

Is there an error in my interpretation or is 2:1 all that is really needed? If so, that would definitely eliminate those 17 hour runs.

If I am correct in my interpretation, is there an explanation for why this lower reflux ratio works?
.

[rad14701]

The above VM operation procedure recommends using a reflux ratio of 1:1 to 2:1 during the heart run.

However, a reflux ratio of 9:1 is recommended in The Compleat Distiller and a reflux ratio of 10:1 is recommended in Making Gin & Vodka.

Is there an error in my interpretation or is 2:1 all that is really needed? If so, that would definitely eliminate those 17 hour runs.

If I am correct in my interpretation, is there an explanation for why this lower reflux ratio works?
.

Unless you have a very discerning palate you shouldn't need to go much further than 3:1 or 4:1 for your reflux ratio... At those rates you should be able to maintain 95%... Depending on your still you might be able to do so at 2:1... I just run enough reflux to maintain an equilibrium, maintaining a steady temperature, and collect spirits that suit my taste... If it's taking too long to run then you definitely want to consider doing stripping runs before your spirit run as the overall time will be reduced... Not only that but you'll be able to take off at a faster rate while maintaining purity due to the higher proof of the low wines, in the 35% - 40% range...

It takes lot more HETP's and/or a higher reflux ratio to get from 95% - 96.5%...

[hitman5363]

Very new to the hobby and have been reading and reading and reading....so much to read it is mind boggling. I have a Milehigh still. My question....I do not have a take off valve that can be closed.....is this absolutely necessary???

[Bushman]

Very new to the hobby and have been reading and reading and reading....so much to read it is mind boggling. I have a Milehigh still. My question....I do not have a take off valve that can be closed.....is this absolutely necessary???

If your talking about after the reflux condenser and before the takeoff the answer is yes otherwise your still will not reflux to separate the heads/hearts/tails. If your thinking after the product condenser then no you shouldn't have one!

[wv_cooker]

Very new to the hobby and have been reading and reading and reading....so much to read it is mind boggling. I have a Milehigh still. My question....I do not have a take off valve that can be closed.....is this absolutely necessary???

If your talking about after the reflux condenser and before the takeoff the answer is yes otherwise your still will not reflux to separate the heads/hearts/tails. If your thinking after the product condenser then no you shouldn't have one!

I think you missed the reference to Milehi, Bushman. I believe this guy may be in the wrong thread as most Milehi's are CM if I am not mistaken.

@Hitman
Here is a thread from Prairiepiss on the Milehi CM's. Hope it helps.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25732

[hitman5363]

Thanks Bushman and Cooker......yes, it is a CM still from Milehigh......so guess I posted in wrong area, sorry. I have made the manifiold listed per the CM thread so, I guess in being a newbie I have made the mod to this still and hopefully therefore should be OK. Thank you so much.

[Prairiepiss]

I would like to point out. That a valve should never be placed on a Mile high cm still takeoff. For safety reasons the vapor path should be unobstructed from boiler to take off.

[Bushman]

I would like to point out. That a valve should never be placed on a Mile high cm still takeoff. For safety reasons the vapor path should be unobstructed from boiler to take off.

+1, and yes I was referring to a VM.

[pounsfos]

Thank you hitman5363

For reviving a 2 year old thread.......

[Purewater]

Hey!
Why do we have to equlibrate for at least 1-2hours?
Are it neccasary with lowwines?
Speakt to Manu from Hanoi stillbuilder, and he says he not believe in equlibration no longer than 15 minutes..
What should exactly be the benefits of a so much longer eq?

[rubber duck]

I think it has somthing to do with your packing and lenth of collumn, ie theoretical plates. With the packing avaliable today I can reflux 20 minutes if I have enough spp packing.

[Bushman]

That time first appeared years ago in the Nixon Stone book since then we have come to realize that we can attain equalibrium much sooner. Like Rubber Duck I usually do reflux for 20-30 min. then start collecting slow through the heads to prevent smearing before speeding up through the hearts.

[thepatchworkdoll]

I remember reading this post when it first came out in 2010. I had not been stilling too long and all the talk about sodium bicarbonate and carbonate kinda worried me a bitb so i never really tried this method. Do any of you guys still use the addition of the aforementioned to treat your low wines. Any advice will be very much appreciated.
regards
Patch

[Purewater]

Hey
Alright thanks guys, its probably need a little up date then.. Im new to VM operation, (started with LM)
Yes i go with a 2" VM with about 1m of packed spp, really nice little things these spirals..
And yes i treat my lowwines always with sodium carbonate (Na2C03) 1teaspoon/ Litre of 30%atv, and i must tell, big different in a less amount of heads and much easier to take smell cuts even. So i can absolute recommend it. Cheap as well, 600g cost of 8$. Im just go for stripping with my LM and then threated the lowwines and someday i just start right ahead or sometimes it rest for a couple of days, but i see no difference there so just boil right off if it suits.

P.S it would be really nice if this thread can come to live after these years of improvments and all the VM operators out there shared new good knowledge

[still_stirrin]

I'm a LM/VM operator as well.

Typically, I equalibriate 20-30 minutes too. Running on a 1/2 barrel electric keg boiler, the 2"ID x 1m column is packed with 12mm glass marbles and insulated with Reflectex. And I do (sometimes) pre-treat with Na2CO3, especially when running feints, as it does help to clean up the product.

I'll use the LM takeoff for foreshots and early heads and then stabilize again for 15-20 minutes before opening the VM. The hearts are nice and "fat" that way. And when I do get to the tails, I'll switch back to the LM valve to finish up. 9-10 gallons of low wines will take me 8 hours from power up to clean up.
ss