First Attempt Failure

[NMStill]

Ok...trying to run the Sweet Feed recipe but bought the wrong feed from TSC....it had pellets. So...thought I would try it anyway and run it for my first sacrificial run and I'd learn something along the way until my bad of TSC AG (no pellets) showed up. Since the pellets are made of alfalfa and who knows what, thought I would throw in some more grains....so I randomly added 4 cups of corn meal.

I threw in the usual, 4 gallons of distilled water+4" of my sweet feed (with pellets) from a 5 gallon bucket+my 4 cups of cornmeal and it to 150 degrees F while stirring the whole time so it didn't burn. I got it there and kept it at 150 degrees for an hour...noting that my mix looked more like oatmeal than a liquid. I tried to then strain it and that is where I realized I failed. What I was trying to strain was essentially a semi solid mix where I assume the grains and cornmeal absorbed all the water. I poured it through a stainer and would then place a bowl on top to try and push the mix through the strainer to get as much liquid as possible. By the time I was done....I only had a little over one gallon of liquid (wort) from my mash. So....do I throw it, or can it be saved? I didn't add any sugar because I assume I was tossing it but thought I'd ask here first.

This is my first run at it and obviously I've failed. Just thought I'd post and admit that at least I learned something...don't use corn meal and sweet feed with pellets!!

[corene1]

Ok...trying to run the Sweet Feed recipe but bought the wrong feed from TSC....it had pellets. So...thought I would try it anyway and run it for my first sacrificial run and I'd learn something along the way until my bad of TSC AG (no pellets) showed up. Since the pellets are made of alfalfa and who knows what, thought I would throw in some more grains....so I randomly added 4 cups of corn meal.

I threw in the usual, 4 gallons of distilled water+4" of my sweet feed (with pellets) from a 5 gallon bucket+my 4 cups of cornmeal and it to 150 degrees F while stirring the whole time so it didn't burn. I got it there and kept it at 150 degrees for an hour...noting that my mix looked more like oatmeal than a liquid. I tried to then strain it and that is where I realized I failed. What I was trying to strain was essentially a semi solid mix where I assume the grains and cornmeal absorbed all the water. I poured it through a stainer and would then place a bowl on top to try and push the mix through the strainer to get as much liquid as possible. By the time I was done....I only had a little over one gallon of liquid (wort) from my mash. So....do I throw it, or can it be saved? I didn't add any sugar because I assume I was tossing it but thought I'd ask here first.

This is my first run at it and obviously I've failed. Just thought I'd post and admit that at least I learned something...don't use corn meal and sweet feed with pellets!!

There is a little bit more to it also, I have only done a couple of sweet feed washes but, you need to put your grain in the bucket then in another bucket mix the sugar and some warm water and stir it up good so it all dissolves. then stir it into the bucket of sweet feed mix let it cool to about 80 to 82 degrees and pitch your yeast .No need to cook it since the sugar is coming from a sack not the grains, the grains are for flavor. Aeriate it well and put you lid and airlock in place . Ferment it on the grain and when it is finished separate the wash from the grains and let it settle so the solids will settle to the bottom then siphon the wash into your boiler and distill.

[NMStill]

I decided to run with it. I forgot to mention that I had been washing the mash in the strainer with distilled water after i would compress it and that addition yielded almost 3 gallons. Figuring this is a learning situation, I decided to add 7 lbs of white granulated sugar and topped the rest off with hot tap water. I let it settle and will add my yeast tomorrow. My specific gravity is at 1.70. The yeast I have to pitch is either the 5gm packages of Red Star Champagne yeast or a bag of Liquor Quick Super Yeast X-press (says it will make 20% ABV after 6.5 days). Not sure if I'm making paint thinner, oatmeal or shine at this point!

[Prairiepiss]

What recipe are you following? Doesn't sound like the one posted here. In the tried and true recipe section?

[aj2456]

if its purely for a sacrifical run you could use the super yeast- faster- but i would still use the champagne yeast myself- can use some of the sweeet feeds yeast cake or the mixture while its still bubbling to pitch into another recipe (free yeast)

[NMStill]

The recipe used was a combination of the sweet feed and experimentation. Since the pellets in the sweet feed mix take away from the grains that would otherwise be in the AG mix, I decided to "supplement" with cornmeal. What I have found is that maybe I should have added amylase to the thick mash to help liquify it? Besides helping to convert the starch to sugar, I'm not sure why that would make the mash thinner, but that is what I saw somewhere. Since this is the first sacrificial run and not intended to be consumed, its more of a curious experiment...but I would like to believe that it would work. On second thought...think I'll give some to my mother in law.

After pitching the yeast, the airlock is bubbling non stop.

[shadylane]

NMStill , I don't even know were to start.
I get in trouble experimenting quite often. Corn meal and wheat flower are often the cause.
They ground too fine. They seem like a good idea until used in a ferment.
Pick any one of the tried and true recipes and follow it.
Remember the recommended sugar is the max needed. A little less might be better.
Glad your wash is fermenting well. You'll do better next time. I'd bet good money on it.
Careful with the Mother in law, but you already know that.

[NMStill]

The next day after my airlock was continuing to bubble, I thought I'd be extra thorough and stir the wort. I must have killed my yeast because once I popped the lid and stirred, it never bubbled again. The wort tasted sweet so I thought I'd pitch another package of Champagne yeast by red star. I've let it sit for 2 days and still no bubbles. Thinking that maybe the alcohol was too high and killed the yeast I check the hydrometer today. It is slightly less than 1.00. I started the wort at 1.70, so how can I calculate how much turned to alcohol? When I distill it, will the excess sugar make it through, giving it a sweet result?

[Jkhippie]

Okay, you had about 4 gals liquid and 7 lbs sugar? I'm guessing your starting gravity was 1.070 and not 1.700? Take you starting gravity, subtract your ending gravity and multiply by .129 (I've also seen it as 'x .131' - don't know which is more acurate).

No, sugar won't carry over into your distillate.

[Prairiepiss]

If its below 1.000. There isn't enough sugar left to wort about.

[NMStill]

You are correct, I mistyped. My original SG was 1.070. My final SG was 0.998. Using JKhippie's method, I have less than 1% alcohol!! Is it even worth running it through the still? I mean it is supposed to be a first run sacrificial run, but I was hoping to experience the whole output.. fore shots, heads, hearts, tail. If there isn't much alcohol, I imagine nothing would come out until 212 degrees!

[woodshed]

Take a look at the calcs on the parent site. I came up with 9. damn near 3%.
Looks to me you get the full ride. Just be safe. Patient. Keep really good notes. Smell and feel are most important at this stage. Taste should be done in extreme moderation and with plenty of water as a chaser. Taste can be eliminated altogether although it's mighty tempting.

Your only gonna get better right?

[NMStill]

Ahhh...I was looking for a calculator on the parent site but missed this one (I was looking in the distilling section and didn't notice the wash calculator). I'm happy to see it got something...I'll try running it tomorrow. The yeast was supposed to go to 20%. I'm not sure what I did to cause and abrupt stop in the fermentation process. Was it an introduction of oxygen?

I have a distilling question. I will be using my 5 gallon pot still on a propane flame outdoors (on my turkey deep frying setup). I know you should go slow and expect the methanol to start coming out of the condenser around 148F, and the ethanol around 172F. I would think that you should try and keep the temperature as close to the 172-212F as possible to get the alcohol and not the water. This seems like its a matter of just controlling the flame. Ok..here is where I'm confused because people talk about keeping an eye on the temperature and noticing how the temperature increases into the 200F+. Aren't you trying to keep it under 212F and trying to NOT let it even get to 200F?

[Prairiepiss]

Ahhh...I was looking for a calculator on the parent site but missed this one (I was looking in the distilling section and didn't notice the wash calculator). I'm happy to see it got something...I'll try running it tomorrow. The yeast was supposed to go to 20%. I'm not sure what I did to cause and abrupt stop in the fermentation process. Was it an introduction of oxygen?
The yeast doesn't dictate the amount of alcohol. The amount of sugar does. You only had enough sugar to make the amount of alcohol that was made. When the SG gets to 1.000 or below. There is no more sugar for the yeast to consume. So yes fermentation will stop.

I have a distilling question. I will be using my 5 gallon pot still on a propane flame outdoors (on my turkey deep frying setup). I know you should go slow and expect the methanol to start coming out of the condenser around 148F, and the ethanol around 172F. I would think that you should try and keep the temperature as close to the 172-212F as possible to get the alcohol and not the water. This seems like its a matter of just controlling the flame. Ok..here is where I'm confused because people talk about keeping an eye on the temperature and noticing how the temperature increases into the 200F+. Aren't you trying to keep it under 212F and trying to NOT let it even get to 200F?

You need to put it in park for a bit. You can not run a pot still by temps. I repeat. YOU CAN NOT RUN A POT STILL BY TEMPS. You need to take the time and go read the threads in the must read new distiller reading lounged. The ones about temps and cuts. While you are there. Read the rest of that section. Not sure where you are getting your info from? Not here I know. You have a lot to learn. And have jumped before you tested the water. Not to mention you didn't understand the yeast.

By the way that sounds like turbo yeast? Which is another problem that you should research around here about.

[NMStill]

Ok...here is how it turned out....

I was following a Youtube.com video labeled Moonshine Making 101. Lots of fun to watch and seems a bit over simplified but inspirational as well since that is what got me into this. In the video, he talks about how the temps dictate the alcohol production. Ok Prairie P....you were right, my temps never seemed to budge from 182F. I kept waiting for them to creep up but...they never did. Since this was my first run and I was planning on tossing it....I experimented with cornmeal and different yeast.

In distilling it all down, I tried to get a single drip or two every second...sometimes it was a small stream....other times it was a non event...no drips for a few seconds. I kept collecting and tasting to see how the different "cuts" may taste. I filled my 5 gallon pot about 2/3 full and lit the stove (my turkey fryer burner outside). I used a flour and water past to seal up the joints on the still. I discarded the first 70ml of output. Smelled bad...like lighter fluid. Didn't taste it, but put it in a dish and lit it with my lighter. Fun stuff. My first quart jar turned out great....and I proofed it in a graduated cylinder. It was 118 proof (58%). I promised my son that I would take him hunting so I shut the still down halfway through the second quart. didn't mean to plan it that way but the wild was a callin'!!! I came home, filled the pot with the remaining wort and relit the pot and collected another 70ml and added it to the first to discard. As I did the first time, I used flour and water mix to seal up the gaps to ensure no vapor loss. I finished the second quart and kept tasting the output. It tasted sweet and "corny" so I kept it going and collecting. Overall, I collected 4 quarts before I shut it down. The temp never got above 182F. The last two quarts tasted bad compared to the first. It was night time so I never noticed the "film" on the surface. I kept trying to feel for a "slippery or oily" feel to identify the tails. I think my first quart was good, the second was ok..and the last two quarts were strictly tails. I used a hydrometer to check each quart and identify the proof:

Quart #1 = 118 proof alcohol
Quart #2 = 90 proof alcohol
Quart #3 = 30 proof alcohol
Quart #4 = 30 proof alcohol

So....what do I do now? In my reading, I was to expect one gallon of hootch to my 5 gallons of wort. I also read that I should take my 4 quarts (including my fore shots) and distill them down again to further purify it. I know my last two quarts were obviously the tails but I I'm new at this and wondering what to do. Keep the first quart and make apple pie? Re-distill all of it, re-distill the last three? I'm happy with my first batch and proud to carry on a tradition my family elders (now passed) practiced.

Thank you all for the advice and critiques,

Happy, Happy, Happy

[NMStill]

In reading the Parent Site, it talks about adding my four quarts of distillate and water back to the pot still for another run to purify. However, it doesn't say how much water to add.

[Jkhippie]

Add enough water to dilute the boiler charge to 30-40%.

[bellybuster]

I would double the amount of collecting jars... at least. with a 4 gallon charge you want to maximize the amount of yummy stuff from the yucky stuff. Smaller collecting vessels allows you to make tighter cuts with less waste.

[shadylane]

In the video, he talks about how the temps dictate the alcohol production.

It's the other way around, The % of alcohol decides what temp it will boil at.

In distilling it all down, I tried to get a single drip or two every second...sometimes it was a small stream....other times it was a non event...no drips for a few seconds.

Your not controlling the heat properly.
Add heat and "wait" for the first few drips out of the condenser.
The wash is now hot enough to begin boiling.
Turn the heat down enough to get a fast drip and collect the foreshots.
Turn the heat up enough to get steady stream.
How fast of a stream depends on whether your doing a stripping run or a spirit run.
Or the limitations of your heat source, condenser, boiler size and patients.
With a small boiler you want a slower output. That way you will have less smearing.
As the run progresses you will discover the need for more and more heat to maintain the same output.
Alcohol boils easier than water.

The temp never got above 182F. :

This is one of the problems that thermometers have.
If it's not in the right location or it's inaccurate it will give faulty information.

So....what do I do now? In my reading, I was to expect one gallon of hootch to my 5 gallons of wort. I also read that I should take my 4 quarts (including my fore shots) and distill them down again to further purify it. I know my last two quarts were obviously the tails but I I'm new at this and wondering what to do. Keep the first quart and make apple pie? Re-distill all of it, re-distill the last three? I'm happy with my first batch and proud to carry on a tradition my family elders (now passed) practiced.

Thank you all for the advice and critiques,

Happy, Happy, Happy

Discared the foreshots. Save the middle of the hearts run for consumption.
Add the heads and tails to the faints jar.
Start another batch or two of wash...
Three stripping runs will give enough low-wines to make a proper spirit run.
If you don't drink all the hearts cut shine...

Distillers FAQ , The rules we live by and the Parent site have most of the basic information.
jkhippie and bellybuster also gave good advise.
Edited: Everybody has given good advice.

[NMStill]

Ok, so it sounds like I combine all four quarts back into the pot and add enough water to get to 30-40% ABV. Then redistill again and use smaller jars.

#1 Question....does methanol get produced again on the re-distillation? As I mentioned before, I threw out the first 70ml before....and another 70ml when I added the remaining wash. I thought I was being conservative in throwing out the first 50ml, but then I see where some say to throw out the first 100ml if you use a pot still like I do? What's more correct?

#2 Question...My thermometer is in the head, I bought the still from WhiskeyStill.net. My run never got over 182F and had a consistent 1-2 drips per second. I thought my run was over because I was only getting 30 Proof at the fourth quart and I could see the film on the surface, it was getting slightly cloudy and it started to taste bad. So why didn't my temps go higher? I keep seeing where people talk about shutting it down when the temps get to about 200F or around 95C? Did I stop too soon?

[rad14701]

NMStill, did you ever get the second run completed...??? You still should have had the temperature gradually rise as the run progressed... Perhaps there was a problem with the thermometer...

The whole collection of foreshots has been discussed ad nauseam so perhaps you haven't researched enough here in these very forums... It never hurts to make all cuts during every distillation run...

[NMStill]

I did another AG sweet feed run today, this time no pellets and a true all grain. I did see a gradual increase in temps as time went on this time. I stopped around 192F but what led me to stop is when I tasted the output and it tasted like water. On my 6th pint, I tested the proof and it was only about 10% ABV so I shut it down at that point.

So, here is what I have at this point. From my first run I have a quart from my first run that is 60% ABV, a second quart that is 45% ABV Proof and two more quarts that are only 15% ABV.

On my second AG run today, I got 6 pints before I shut it off. The first three are about 45% ABV and the last three are lower.

I decided to add the rest of my wash into the still, added the last two quarts from my first run and the last three pints from my run today. I am planning on running it tomorrow, again throwing out the first 100ml as fore shots.

Here is my question…does everyone keep the first high alcohol jars like I was planning? Or would it be better to throw it all back in the pot still and run everything again?

[NMStill]

Update….I think I waited too long to run my wash. After it stopped fermenting (bubbling) and was as 6% ABV, I waited a week to run it since I didn't have time during the week. It smelled bad (sort of like puke) but I thought "what the hell, maybe this is the way an AG smells?" I was checking my first jars from that batch and they retained some of that smell. So…I know that the more times you run it, it purifies it and you loose some of the flavor. I decided to throw everything I had into the pot and run it again, using smaller cuts (pints not quarts) and hoping to strip away that horrible smell. Maybe there's no getting rid of it, but I'll try to today.

[NMStill]

I ran everything today and here is how it turned out. The combo of my prior runs and the rest of my "puke wash" yielded a wash of about 15% ABV. My fore shots started to come out around 160F and came out pretty strong. I wasn't planning on collecting until the temps got into the 172F-175F. Meanwhile at 250ml, I was still at 160F. I then went to the parent site and used the calculator to figure out that with 15% ABV, the wash should boil around 160F. Beginner move but I figure I'll save the 250ml and either toss it or add it to another wash.

I wound up with about 6 pints. #1 was 74% ABV, #2 72% ABV, #3 67% ABV, #4 66%, #5 65% ABV, #6 55% ABV (and slightly cloudy). I then collected a quart of tails which came in about 50% ABV and pretty cloudy….and it stunk like my wash!!!

At this point, I plan on adding pint #6 and the quart of tails to my next run. I'll end up diluting the rest down to 40% ABV (using the parent site calculator) and putting them in my little oak barrels.

I've completed my first few runs and re-distillation of them. If you have any suggestions or "constructive" comments…please chime in. I thank everyone for their input and look forward to getting better with each run.

[rad14701]

What are you setting aside as Heads...??? You collected 250ml of Foreshots but never considered the Heads cut... You don't want to be drinking early Heads, only perhaps blending some late Heads with your Hearts... You really didn't collect in enough jars to do good blending after airing... Twice as many jars would have been a better choice...

[NMStill]

You are right, I didn't really consider the heads. I figured that after 250ml, that was the heads and fore shots. How do you air out the distillate? It seems contradictory since alcohol evaporates.

[aussie_redneck]

You are right, I didn't really consider the heads. I figured that after 250ml, that was the heads and fore shots. How do you air out the distillate? It seems contradictory since alcohol evaporates.

You really haven't read enough if you are really asking how to " air out" i mean its as simple as it sounds just leave the lids off with a coffee strainer over the top to keep the bugs out. Read read read and re-read

[NMStill]

Thanks ausie, yes I have read read and reread…there is very little information out there about the process of air-ing out and what it is actually doing. I guess I was looking for a more scientific answer about the volatile compounds and evaporation results. Since there is always a trace of methanol, does methanol evaporate before ethanol and thus give you a better product? I am wondering EXACTLY what the air-ing out does?

[aussie_redneck]

The airing out allows the jars to breath. I am unsure of the scientific reasons all i kno is if ya do it ya can get a better idea of how your jars smell and it seems to produce a nicer product thru my small experience in this hobby. I have found with certain washes in small jars of product doing cuts then leaving them to air out for a day or two some certain jars i would have put back thru due to.smell and taste have become quiet nice so i can add them to the hearts to hence producing a stronger flavour and smell to the final product

[rad14701]

You may have read but you obviously didn't read here in these forums... This is all explained in the New Distiller Reading Lounge, which we consider mandatory not optional... It eliminates a lot of repetitive question answering by the membership which only serves to further clutter up the forums... When we say read, we really mean it...

I'm curious as to why you are trying to reinvent the wheel here...??? The reason we have a Tried and True Recipe forum is so folks don't have to slog along with failures... Once you understand how things work you should be able to whip up working recipes at your leisure... Trying before that point is just a crap shoot and wastes everyones time...