Recommended 5 gallon barrel for aging?

[Beerandsuds]

I have a friend that wants to age 5 gallons of what I'm making in an oak barrel. I've told him about chips and glass carboys...he want's the barrel.

I've found these sources:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/cata ... el&x=0&y=0

http://morebeer.com/search?search=vadai ... MBTFEB2010

http://oakbarrelsltd.com/20-liter-oak-b ... hoops.html

Does anyone have any experience with any of these sources, be them good or bad? Does anyone have any other sources they really recommend for barrels?

[Bushman]

A lot of members like this source.
http://www.gibbsbrothers.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Fritz The Cat]

I've got a 10 gal barrel from http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/. It's top quality but you have to drill your own bung and tap holes.

[BoomTown]

A lot of members like this source.
http://www.gibbsbrothers.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

so, couple months ago I got one of those little Gibbs barrels, like a 3.5 gal. Filled her up with white, and set her aside outdoors, like on July 7. Weather temps have jumped around between 110 and 65 out there, and now I'm looking at that little critter and wondering how what's inside should compare to something aged in a larger barrel?

I'm thinking, bigger barrels + more booze = requires more time, so if smaller barrel and smaller booze, how much time?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[iDrinkWash]

A lot of members like this source.
http://www.gibbsbrothers.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

so, couple months ago I got one of those little Gibbs barrels, like a 3.5 gal. Filled her up with white, and set her aside outdoors, like on July 7. Weather temps have jumped around between 110 and 65 out there, and now I'm looking at that little critter and wondering how what's inside should compare to something aged in a larger barrel?

I'm thinking, bigger barrels + more booze = requires more time, so if smaller barrel and smaller booze, how much time?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Depends on age of the barrel (how much has been run through it), the size, and the temperature swings. Small barrels like yours have sometimes 10x the surface area to volume of what the big boys use. So yes, the oak flavor is going to happen MUCH faster.

My barrel aging has so far been limited to beer, which gets PLENTY of wood character after limited 3-4 week contact. It is my understanding from reading for a few months here that there is more to barrel aging spirits than just "picking up the oak" character. Several other mellowing reactions happen over time, which you will not be able simulate with the small barrel. You basically get a young whiskey with as much oak flavor that the big boys get with much more time.

I plan on trying to simulate the surface area of a large barrel, in a small quantity. I plan on doing that in glass with a small amount of wood cubes.

To answer your question - the only way you'll know if you should pull it out of that barrel is to taste it. Once it gets the desired amount of oak for you, get it out of there. If it goes to far, the only thing you can do is to blend it with more white. My guess is with those temp swings, and that size barrel, it's done.


IDrinkWash

[varocketry]

Would anyone have experience or learned comments for an OAK barrel supplier?

I've found between these:

1. Gibbs Bros Cooperage (http://www.gibbsbrotherscooperage.com/c ... e8306439c0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - out of Arkansas, uses southern regional white oak
  - new barrel, any char you want
  - 5.3 gal (20l) Sap Clear Charred Keg, $154.00,
  - 6" wooden faucet, $14.45
  - UPS Ground, $37.34

Total: $205.79

2. Black Swan Cooperage, ( http://www.blackswanbarrels.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - Park Rapids, MN, uses upper US sourced white oak, water leak tested
  - new barrel, medium toast , #3 char, (customizable)
  - 5 gal, Black Swan STandard (cross-grooved)
  - $145.00 (bung included)
  - no spigot
  - Shipping, $38

Toal: $183.

(Heidi: "Our white oak sourced in PA and MN is sweeter, we believe, than southern white Oak sources. Medium Toast, and #3 Char is recommended to bring out the carmel, and subtle flavors from the Oak vice standard #4 char. In the olden days, stills used lead solder in their construction and a heavy #4 char was needed to filter out these harmful chemicals.")


3. Oak Barrels, Ltd, (http://oakbarrelsltd.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - Harlingen, TX,
  - used re-coopered barrels of white oak, Cooper in Mexico
  - 5.3 gal (20l) re-coopered, $134.95,(includes Bung, Spigot, & Stand), Galvanized hoops
  - Fedex Ground, $19.75

Total: $154.70

"Our third generation cooper resides in Mexico. He builds quality oak barrels – made in the traditional French manner. He is truly an artist. The barrels are made from American white oak … he gets the oak from distilleries, reconditions and opens the pores by sanding each stave back to original oak and then re-coops it into our smaller barrels. The barrels are have no type of finish or lacquer varnish - each barrel is toasted in which the oak is caramelized and develops a multitude of aromas ... all adding to the character of your finished product."

4. Online Kegs & Barrels (http://www.barrelsonline.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - ecommerce site for Mexican cooperage (location not disclosed)
  - used re-coopered barrels of white oak
  - Oak Barrel - 5.28 gallon (20 liter) Steel Hoop
  - $100.00 (Includes stand, spigot and bung)
  - Std Ground, $33.21

Total: $133.21

5. The Barrel MIll (http://www.whiskeybarrel.com/index.php/ ... arrel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - 5 Gallon Premium American Oak Whiskey Barrel. Staves dried 6 months.
  - new, charred to customer specs, heads charred too.
  - $165.00
  - $6.00 bung
  - wood spigot, $12.00
  - Std Ground, $27.93

Total: $210.93

6. THousand Oaks Barrel Co. (http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/oak-barre ... etail.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

• - website does not disclose any information about the company, location, sources, etc. A DNS Lookup is stealthed.
  - build quality in pictures appears to be Mexican made
  - 5 Gallon White Oak Barrel, "The staves are air dried for two years and all barrels have a medium char."
  - $149.95 (Includes stand, spigot and bung)
  - Std Ground, $24.99
  - State Tax, $7.80

Total: $182.74


Or another perhaps?
Thanks.

[Jimbo]

The used Balcones barrels are 5.3g, used about 10 months on average and excellent. I own 3. Balcomnes ages their Blue Hopi Corn Whiskey in them. Fill/empty dates avg 10 months. They are about 114 delivered to yoru door but availability is spotty. Gotta watch the few shops that carry them. I bought mine from these guys, and it looks like they are available at the moment. http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/whiskey-barrel.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Theo]

I picked two of the 5 gallon Balcones barrels from my local brew shop. $85 each. They were used for their blue corn whiskey. They are very well made.

[varocketry]

Wow, you're right, they have them now. WInston told me they were going to have some available soon.
But, I couldn't find a way to get to the distillery. This is a good opportunity.

[varocketry]

Some things to consider for anyone thinking of these barrels:

Email exchange with Balcones:

• " If the desired result is closer to a lighter wood profile (tequila, scotch) then they would do fine. The char levels on small barrels can be pretty inconsistent, but usually around a 3 char probably.
  
  Our used barrels would take a while to create a bourbon-like result. Depends on how long they were used the first time. Some of the ones we used closer to a year plus might never give you enough wood to make bourbon. It's not just the char, most of the color actually comes from the toast/heat affected zone that lies behind the char. You could by toasted cubes or make your own, which I have done many times for wood-aging homebrew.
  
  One of the things I think is most overlooked isn't the toast/char levels but the age of the wood used to build the barrel. The longer the time the wood was yard aged before being made into a barrel, the less tannic, young flavors it will contribute to the contents. I recommend asking about wood aging times from the coopers on your list. I can't say who makes ours, but we have the custom made for us and pay a good bit to get longer yard aging times for our wood.
  
  Not super familiar with some of the suppliers on your list and don't wanna disparage anyone's products. I'd ask about the wood aging and make a decision based off of the best answer."

[Jimbo]

Thanks good email. For reference, last years batch of my apple brandy has now spent a year in one of these Balcones barrels. Its about perfect now, beautiful color, and a warm caramelly vanilla flavor thats not overbearing over the apple but most definitely present. As the barrel is now probably close to 2 years old, Im not afraid to leave the brandy in there longer still for storage and slower continuous aging as I draw off it (rotating periodically to keep the entire inside surface wet)

I also aged a single malt wheat in one. But to be fair I dropped cubes of toasted french oak in that one too, a 2 oz bag of them. That one is also a year old now and maybe my prized possession at the moment.

In general Im rotating assorted stock in and out of them now for 2-4 months each. I think not only the wood, but the oxidation from the air and exchange helps alot. My hooch rotates between the barrels and quart jars with a fresh 1x1x5 stick I cut from Jack Daniels barrels and char all around. After 6 months use I toss the sticks in the smoker bin. You can cut a hell of a lot of sticks from 1 half barrel planter for 30 bucks at Menards.

[Badger]

For what it's worth, I asked Darek Bell of Corsair Distillery (of Triple Smoke fame) about this on another forum. This was his response:

"We use barrels from the barrel house, black swan, and independent stave. My personal favorite is the barrel mills char#4, if you couldn't tell. This really will come down to personal preference. Black swan drills a honeycomb pattern into their wood to speed up aging b/c it gives more surface area. In our tests, this works for just a few of our products, but not for most of our products. So we have not been using them as much."

[Stainless dude]

The used Balcones barrels are 5.3g, used about 10 months on average and excellent. I own 3. Balcomnes ages their Blue Hopi Corn Whiskey in them. Fill/empty dates avg 10 months. They are about 114 delivered to yoru door but availability is spotty. Gotta watch the few shops that carry them. I bought mine from these guys, and it looks like they are available at the moment. http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/whiskey-barrel.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I also have three of these barrels and have had good results with them. I think they are a good value..

[varocketry]

Badger:

You said "We use barrels from the barrel house, black swan, and independent stave. My personal favorite is the barrel mills char#4, if"

Is Barrel House = Barrel Mills or another source? DuckDuckGo doesn't seem to find a "Barrel House" as a cooperage.


Wow, interesting. Independent Stave's custom char 18 month aged oak barrels in 53gal size are $163.25 which is virtually the same as my other sources 5 gal barrel. That's crazy.

Do you have to fill up a barrel for optimal use? I'm sure you'd have to have enough in the barrel to keep it sealed with turning, but ... would it work with say 20 gallons in the barrel. What does the extra AIR exposure do to the aging/maturation?

================================================================================================
http://www.iscbarrels.com/barrels" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

THE COOPER’S SELECT BARREL $163.25
• 18-month air-dried aged wood
• Your choice of char level: #1, #2, #3, #4, or the “Craft Distillers” char option designed specifically for craft distillers looking for more extractives.
• Optional toasted heads for an additional $15
• Black steel hoops
• Premium quality finish and laser branded logo option (please provide black and white vector art (EPS or PDF))
• Quality packaging includes shrink wrap for added protection
• Barrel Dimensions PDF

[Badger]

Yes, he seemed to use Barrel House and Barrel Mills interchangeably.

Yeah, when you see those prices, it makes sense that the big boys who can make massive amounts of distillate have, over the years, opted to stockpile and age slowly in large barrels. When you can make 10x the product for essentially the same cost, why not? It's only the small guys who are desperate to get something to market as quickly as possible who are willing to buy these 5-10 gallon barrels and the time-savings they represent. And then there's us, who have to work our butts off just to MAKE 5 gallons!

[varocketry]

Amen, brother.

[OzKev]

Will aging in glass with oak chips give the same result as aging in a oak barrel. I'm thinking the barrel would breath more, but has anyone tested it?

[varocketry]

Cool Customer Service email exchange with Independent Stave Company via their contact form:

Q1. "I see a Question and Answer in your FAQ area which interests me. When I toured KY distilleries this summer, the majority used barrels with #4 char. Why is your popular char #3? What material difference would that char difference make to your craft buyers? "

A1: "The difference between a #3 and #4 char will vary from supplier to supplier. Basically, a #4 char is a longer and deeper char which will provide slightly more extraction and color vs. a #3 char."

Q2. "Do you have to fill up a 53gal barrel for optimal use? I'm sure you'd have to have enough in the barrel to keep it sealed with turning, but ... would it work with say 20 gallons in the barrel. What does the extra AIR exposure do to the aging/maturation of spirits?"

A2: "If you fill it short (20 gal in a 53gal barrel), then it will age faster because of the increased exposure to air in the barrel and surface area. Shouldn't be a problem for the integrity of the barrel as long as you turn it every once and a while. With only 20 gallons it will age quickly - especially if you turn the barrel a lot. You are going to lose a lot of product to evaporation and absorption into the barrel."

Q3. " I do not find smaller than 53 gal barrels listed on your site. I'm guessing that means either you don't make these, or they may be offered through another branded channel, like oaksolutions.com is separated. Can you recommend a source of quality, new, white oak barrels of the 5-10 gallon size?"

A3: "ISC only produces NEW 53 gallon barrels. For smaller barrels, you might try The Barrel Mill in Avon, MN. "

[RBL]

1000 oak barrel is listed on their website to be in Manassas Virginia. I am local to that area and last week looked for it. I was hoping to be able to put my hands on what I buy since my experience with The Barrel Source wasn't so good. Any how, I drove the entire length of the street (I forgot the number) and found nothing. It is only 10 or so blocks long. It is in the "Olde Town" and might not be a store front, I have the number written down and taped to the dash of my truck. I should be back in that area soon and will check again and report findings.

[varocketry]

My 5 gal barrel arrived from Homebrewing.com. It included a rack stand and silicone plug included. $89. and $25 shipping.


I found a source for 15 and 25 gallon new barrels:

http://kelvincooperage.com/craft-distilling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Kelvin Cooperage
1103 Outer Loop
Louisville, Kentucky 40219
Telephone: (502) 366-5757
Fax: (502) 366-0155
Office Hours: Monday-Friday 8:00am-3:30pm EST

[bearriver]

Isnt silicone a material frowned upon in "the rules we live by"?

[varocketry]

bearriver:
Legit question which I am open to counsel from more experienced folks. I believe food grade silicone is fine for use in a low temperature application such as a plug in the side of a barrel. It came from a commercial distillery who used it specifically in that fashion.

I understand there are certain products this site generally discourages use of such as plastics, rubber, glass and others used as distilling components. Some of those products concerns are related to exposure to heat, pressure, thermal expansion, etc.

I do not recall a general concern about food grade silicone being used as a plug for a barrel. I even see acceptance of silicone rings used as a sealing interface between metal parts of a still subject to heat (Pot and column, for instance).

But, I'm new with incomplete knowledge of this craft and I defer to counsel from our community's experienced members, such as yourself if you were coaching by that question.

[rad14701]

A synthetic bung would be fine with low %ABV wines and washes... It is high %ABV spirits that cause problems...

[Jimbo]

Corsair distilling has used 5, 10 and 15g barrels for cheap. Under $100 shipped to my zip for the 5g.

http://corsair-distillery.mybigcommerce.com/barrels/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[BoomTown]

Corsair distilling has used 5, 10 and 15g barrels for cheap. Under $100 shipped to my zip for the 5g.

http://corsair-distillery.mybigcommerce.com/barrels/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thanks Jimbo...I just ordered one.

BT

[Jimbo]

Cool, let us know how it looks when you get it. It doesnt say how long they've been used. If you sk them that and get an answer let us know that too thanks

[varocketry]

Yeah, that Corsair site is shady looking ... as if it's a reseller site only.
The (615) 200-0320 Telephone number goes to a Google Voice redirect, not to a real site.

Maybe they're reselling mexican recoopered barrels? Nothing wrong with that, just can't tell from the lack of information on that site about anything. Or maybe it's just a really small business.

[Jimbo]

Corsair is a bonafide craft distillery. Quite well known. They are just selling their used barrels, shirts and whiskey glasses on that page.

[varocketry]

I heard back from Tuthilltown:

Thank you for your email. The only barrel flavor we have in the 15 gallon size are rye barrels. The char level is medium char. It depends on where they are being shipped and you will need to prime these barrels before using them.

Let us know if you have any more questions and we will be glad to help.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!!
--
Tuthilltown Spirits Distillers
http://www.Tuthilltown.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

(845) 554.8834 Cell
(845) 633-8734 Tasting Room

[BoomTown]

Cool, let us know how it looks when you get it. thanks

Got the barrel from Corsair distilling today, and I have some bad news. The barrel they sent me is not serviceable, and they (someone at Corsair) knew it. Apparently Corsair let it set long enough that it dried out, and one barrel head end split. It looks like they attempted to repair it using some sort of red rosin type material, but the crack is wide open, about as thick as a dime, and runs diameter through the widest part of the barrel. The barrel arrived here so dried out that you can quite literally see light shining through the seams of the slats. I knew it was used, but I was not anticipating that it had been abused.

I'm going to try to save my investment by soaking it to see if it swells enough to seal the gaps, but quite frankly, I'm feeling really ripped. One of the things about this hobby that really nourishes me is that unrelenting demand for excellence that drives the process...I'm terribly disappointed to encounter a vendor who's pride in their own commercial thresholds of excellence is so inferior. Were I them, when it comes to product, I'd never have allowed that barrel to represent my company, especially to a new customer, and especially a new customer with such a big mouth as I have.

Wife is all over me about 'why did you accept it?', and frankly she's right. All I can say is, as it was here when I came in from work, it was too late to call them, and tomorrow when they are open for biz, I will have to call them during my other life (work day), all the while as I really resent having the problem to begin with. Candidly, what makes me feel like someone put pepper on the toilet paper is that red rosin attempted patch. They knew, before they ever shipped it to me, that it was flawed. And what ever that red gunk is, it aint oak. Guess I'm just a crispy critter right now!

Bottom line: I'll call them tomorrow to try to get them to make it right, but my advice has to be...buyer beware!

Boom