Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

[epicdoom]

I signed up and sent an email. There are 3 brew shops in my area that I go to I'm sure one of them would get involved on a personal level. If the info is ready please PM me I'll send my email address so you can send me the information. I don't mind getting my hands dirty and I'm a pushy bastard when its something I believe in.

[Old Anarchist]

i actually studied politics a lil bit, and i assume i know how well a few things work.

if you want to make changes, you have to do it at the local level. city reps, county reps and such as that. those guys are the ones who if you get on your side will help you win over the state. most state reps, if it isn't a hot button issue would just as soon wipe their ass with your petition if it doesn't carry much weight or campaign funds.

that being said, if you decide to petition for HD rights, you better get rid of anything HD related cuz you are gonna make some waves. most likely someone will poke their head in for a visit or 2.

MLK took alot of ass whoopins before civil rights were established. how many would you be willin to take?

[epicdoom]

Well I'm no virgin seeing as how my ass has been handed to me plenty in my life. I'm certainly not afraid to have my life pried into. No distiller here and nothing incriminating. so they can come look if they want to waste there time. That said your are correct with your approach and its exactly the angle I plan to take. I'll work my way through smaller fish to get to the bigger ones. I figure send the info wait 2 weeks no reply. send a packet once a week for 3 weeks still no reply, take it there personally still no good, I'll send a packet every single day. Eventually they have to respond our local reps are pretty good here though so I doubt I'll have to do that locally. The state however is another story. I downloaded the info and will get a bunch printed tomorrow. Ill hold off on the brew shop stuff till the other draft is done but I'll be in touch with them this weekend.

[RandyMarshCT]

Epic, thank you so much for your support! Hopefully I'll have a couple of much better fliers done by this weekend. My wife's due date with our second son is tomorrow, so I'm working around a stressful situation at home. Luckily, my wife is very understanding and supportive of my passion for this hobby. If anyone is good at graphic design or advertising, any help is appreciated.

Old Anarchist, you're right about the attention part. I had to "get rid" of all of my equipment since I had to go public with this. I will never quit making my own spirits, but my hobby can not be associated with my home or work locations (can't even be in the same state, honestly). It sucked to move all my stuff out... I never realized how many jars of feints I had laying around. Looks like a feints run is in order when the "new baby" activity calms a bit. Trust me, all I want to do is make better and better spirits... but my fellow stillers in Florida took a beating and I truly feel for them, so the time is now. Goose Eye is right.... being in CT gets me a little further from that action and you guys in the south have a lot more imminent threat that I probably do. However, I'm on the radar regardless of how this battle goes now. My name is on the list Mike Haney handed to the TTB in June, my name is on every item I've mailed to my senators and representatives, and my name is on the Hobby Distiller's Association... not just as a member, but as a representative. It was a very, very tough decision to make. For me, it's gotta be "Go big or go home" now... and the option of going home is no longer an option.

Sincerely,
Bob Rossi Jr.

[epicdoom]

Family first always Brother.
Its My pleasure and I Did exactly the same Bob I'm not on TTB list yet but will be next month so I figure if I'm gonna do this and rest assured I AM, I would need to get rid of everything. I only make what I want to consume in a certain amount of time so no excess laying around finished up the last of my drink and torched the apparatus today reduced to molted globs of metal. I'll be much happier buying a new set up when we win this battle. In the mean time I can make some good home made wine or visit some friends.

Honestly Id be more then happy to register a still I'd even be happy to pay for the form submission, let the ATF TTB and whoever else wanted to visit, come confirm I don't have any excess spirits over the amount allowed by home beer and wine making rules any time without warning. hell I'd be happy with 100 gallons a year so long as I could distill it myself. Its not that I don't like commercially made spirits I love JD, Jim Beam, Makers mark its just the personal satisfaction of saying I made that damn fine tasting likker all by my self. Of course I'm always looking for that perfect batch as well. I have put hobbies on hold for family and ever friends so this is no big deal for me I have plenty going on in my life to keep my mind occupied and my soul happy

[woodshed]

Otherwise, please be kind enough to stay out of the way.

I have yet to see anybody here getting in the way. I do see questioning which I have done myself.
Those you are trying to recruit have every right to question what is being asked, the motivation behind it, the integrity of those representing the "effort". I am all for what you are trying to do. And believe most of you have your heart in the right place.

Even if only in the role of devil's advocate, by questioning we are contributing. Tough crowds are a tough sell.
Remember that through this journey as you have a lot more tough crowds ahead of you.

[RandyMarshCT]

Even if only in the role of devil's advocate, by questioning we are contributing. Tough crowds are a tough sell.

You're absolutely correct. Every question you ask is one that many others may be thinking and not asking... which gives us the opportunity to respond. This is an extremely difficult agenda to push. How do you convince people who voluntarily participate in an illegal activity to pile their names on a list so you can hand the list over to a legislator? It's about the toughest sell there is... and this is a tough crowd, but that's why this is the largest and foremost community of home distillers in the world. This forum wouldn't be what it is if it were a collection of half-asses, or your average "criminals". In fact, if it weren't for senseless draconian prohibition laws, people on this site wouldn't be "criminals" at all. We would be considered what we really are: serious crafters who pursue our passion to perfect our craft. Plain and simple.

I owe it to everyone on this site to do what I'm doing. I was distilling for years before I found HD. Admittedly, I was making shit and thinking it was great. I'd wager that 90% of my distilling skills can be credited to HD. Like many of you, I've been reduced to a pile of angry shit by Rad and the other big guys. At the time I was furious... but that is what made me get better... it made me learn more. It made me want to prove those guys wrong. If it wasn't for those pushes, I wouldn't be where I am at all. Because of this, I don't want anything to happen to those guys. I wouldn't dream of directly approaching the big guns on this site and asking them to sign up because those guys are critical to the hobby distilling world. If they want to sign up, excellent. If not, that's completely understandable. We need them here, and if they were to get in trouble and stop contributing here, the whole worldwide hobby distilling community would suffer a serious loss. I do not want that by any means. However, if there are any other people out there like me... people who can risk it... people who are fed up and NEED TO make this happen... please give us a hand. If I disappeared from this site or any of the 8 other distilling forums I'm a member of, it wouldn't be a burden on the distilling community by any stretch of the imagination. But, if I'm successful... if WE are successful... then every single hobby distiller in the US (and the countries and states we move on to next) will benefit from it. I'm never going to be "one of the greats" on this site. This is my opportunity to do something big for the home distilling community. To do as much as these other guys have for everyone here and everyone to come in the future.

I'm lucky. I'm part of a small group of people that can jump into this and hit the ground running. I'm 33 years old and I'm part owner of the company I work for. If I was to get busted, I wouldn't lose my job. My family wouldn't starve. Honestly, the worst thing that would happen would be losing all my equipment. Let's face it, I've already gone completely public on this. I know we're a very small contingent, but anyone that might be in a position like me, please consider joining us. The hobby distilling community is where we need to generate most of our support and it's a hell of an uphill battle. If you aren't in a position join, please get a friend or family member to sign up in your place. That is just as helpful as doing it yourself.

I am by no means advocating "outing" yourselves or going public. Don't do it, it's a bad idea. The only reason I'm doing it is for transparency with the organization I'm representing. There's no way I can convince people that we aren't taking them for a ride if I'm not honest about who I am. Just imagine what would happen to Rick's business (never mind the $40,000 he put up to pay for the lobbyist contract) if the people on our membership list started getting busted. He put everything in his life on the line for this move. I don't think anyone will ever do that again, so I'm giving it everything I have. Hopefully, for everyone here, we're successful. Thank you to everyone who is helping, no matter what part you are playing.

Bob Rossi Jr.

[Brewhaus]

We are really seeing support for the HDA taper off, and we need to show strong support to get this pushed through Congress. If you have already signed up, thank you. Please talk to friends and family members about supporting the association, as well. You do not have to be a hobby distiller to support legalization! I have a few friends who signed up for a free account just because they believe that distilling should be legal, right along side brewing and winemaking. This support is even more important than the financial support.

I am really not trying to sound like a salesman, but we all want to see legalization succeed, and this is our best chance. Never before has there been a strong voice or a lobbyist working on our behalf. We can't let it slip away this time.

[S-Cackalacky]

Bob, I applaud your dedication and enthusiasm and I thank you for understanding that some of us here can't jump into this with the same abandon. Unlike some others who have posted in this thread, I believe your sincerity and trust your motives. You're one of us and I feel confident that you and others like you will carry the day in the end. Thank you for doing what you have done.

Rick, I hope you don't get discouraged. I'm sure there are baby steps to be made before great strides are achieved. You have opened the discussion to us and others (I assume). In the last week you have enlisted the pro bono support of a PR(?) agent who has come here and laid out some interesting ideas about winning support from Home Distillers, politicians, and the general public - approaches the layman might not have considered. You've said a few times here, it won't happen overnight. Distillers know patience - get into a distiller mind set and be patient. Great movements start with a few dedicated people doing extraordinary things - thank you.

As for me, I wish circumstances would allow me to take the leap that Bob has. I've weighed the risks and unfortunately I can't take the same leap. That's not to say that I won't do what I can to work toward legalization. It will just have to be in my own way. I'll continue to write letters and will visit the HDA site to see if there's anything else I can do.

Thanks again and best of luck,

[rad14701]

While I would love to be leading the charge towards decriminalization my current circumstances simply don't allow my doing so... Suffice it to say, it's complicated... That being said, I sincerely hope my lack of participation doesn't hold others back from participating in the ongoing process... I am a firm believer in the concept that hobby scale home distillation for personal consumption should be allowed in a very similar manner to wine making or home brewing of beer...

[epicdoom]

Wood I agree 100% Brother
I also completely distanced myself from any distillation equipment and or any related items just to make sure there is nothing for any law enforcement to arrest me for, even though I could have just gotten a fuel permit to keep my equipment. I would rather there be no reasons for even suspected activity. I completely agree with those who don't want to step out of the shadows if that's your choice Then stick to your guns on it. I Joined the fight because I like distilling, cant for the life of me see why it shouldn't be made legal on a hobby level. And I am completely blown away by the fact that a person would not be able to own a distiller if only for water distillation over 1 gallon. I used distilled water in my wine when its time to make a 5 gal. batch I would have to spend several hours distilling by the gallon, I also have a grandson with a medical condition who can only have distilled water he uses well over 2 gallons a day, I buy a special type of water for him because so many water companies out there claim distilled water only to test rite out of the TAP. I wont risk his life so its pay a premium price for it or make it.
Maybe I'll have my daughter just go down and do the welfare thing so the STATE can pay for the water. I'm not trying to be critical here were only taking about a few bucks a day for that, but I should be able to legally own a distiller of more then a gallon capacity to distill only water from. hell If I want to bathe and fill my pool with distilled water I should be able to own and run a million gallon unit so long as its only for that purpose. I get that BIG BROTHER wont be able to visit everyone who owns one to insure that only water is distilled from it. But are they beating on doors to see if were all making Crack, Nope they wait till we screw up and catch folks that way. Give people a chance to do the rite thing and you may find many are doing just that. Its not just about making Booze to me its much bigger then that its about the rite to be innocent till Proven guilty, the rite to make things for myself as apposed to spend my hard earned money,

[woodshed]

Has anyone working on this contacted those who spearheaded the recent changes to laws in CO and WA?
We know the laws they changed, we know the product they achieved it with. They obviously had a lot of people come out of the shadows to help this through.

We also know they had the advantage of using the medical hallway to enter the ballroom. This is not an option here.
But what would they have to say about this effort? How would their lobbyists approach the problem?

[Stainless dude]

I am no authority on this but the legalization change you are talking about woodshed came about because of the voters of this state. Not to say that there were not lobbyist involved, but through the years pubic opinion has changed to be in favor of legalization in wa and co.
It would be interesting to know through a poll what the general public thinks on our cause.

[woodshed]

Good point. They lobbied here for years. Most people I meet here at the distillery on tours are shocked that you cannot make spirits for personal consumption. I would say 90% have said they feel that is wrong.

[Stainless dude]

Maybe that is something the boys in charge can look at. If public opinion is with us it will be much easier, if it's against us it will be far more difficult.

[S-Cackalacky]

One thing to remember is the difference in public perception. At one point in our history (from the 1960s through the 1980s) smoking pot was an acceptable thing to do among a good portion of the population - wouldn't kill you or make you go blind, just get you stoned. It had outgrown the reefer madness stigma of the 30s and 40s. Weird thing is, even though you can go down to the liquor store and buy a bottle of booze, the notion of moonshine being a deadly concoction from the prohibition days still persists. And, it's in the interest of the big boys to perpetuate that notion. I think that will be the most difficult obstacle to overcome - that and the notion of exploding stills.

[epicdoom]

We have had some change here in my state as it pertains to Pot decriminalizing it for less then 2 grams, but I saw also that the sale or import of ever clear is now banned retailers are permitted to sell off what they have and that's the end of it. Makes no sense to me take away a high proof spirit that many use and I see many now making there own. My home state is one of the worst for getting change to happen, all the neighboring states have jumped on the band wagon for this or that but not here. while I'm sad to see the ban on a good spirit, its a good sign in other areas that change may be possible. I would be willing to bet that a good % of the general public would care less if we were able to make our own spirits provided they were well informed as to how safely it can be done. There are horror stories and just about everyone of them can be traced back to human error and or neglect. There is a chance for that in everything were not perfect. Most intelligent folks realize that and accept it, those folks I bet would give a thumbs up. The rest will stay in the little safe box they create thinking if they say no nothing bad will ever happen. I know several folks that drink themselves into a coma every night on beer but think that spirits are the devils elixir. We need to educate the public that this can and is done in a safe manor and that its not just something outlaws do. I bet most of the general public has no idea why moonshining and bootlegging came to pass. The only side they see is the police chasing and busting the folks who had to do it to survive. With shows like Moonshiners people see only the bad in it we need to educate, we need to educate I cant say that enough.

[Snuffy-ga]

I think it will be a long haul. Back in the 60's when I was hiding my pot plants behind the bushes I felt a lot like I do now. But lookat what is happening in that arena. This is worth a shot especially with some serious financing.
I still feel like others that I dont want my info out there for the feds to pick through. There should be a way to assign each member a number and then offer the list of numbers to the lobby indicating each one represents a member with access upon request. At least that would offer an additional level of protection. I do not feel comfy about screaming in some "revenooer's" ear that I own a still any more than I already have by buying one.

[Brewhaus]

Here is the response that I sent to a customer that expressed their concern:
The likelihood that the association’s member list will make its way to law enforcement, and then see law enforcement act on it, is extremely slim for a couple of reasons. First, for a representative to voluntarily hand such a list to law enforcement would doom their career if it were found out. Throwing their constituents under the bus with no potential political gain would be utterly senseless. Secondly, there are many non-hobbyists on the association’s list (I know this for a fact, as I have friends that have signed up that do not distill), so there would be a lot of wasted time by law enforcement if they tried using this list to go after hobbyists. They are far further ahead using the list that the TTB already has, as those are known purchasers of distillers and distiller parts. That focuses their efforts far more than the association’s list.

[Snuffy-ga]

That may well be the case and for the reasons you explained that makes good sense. But how about those that would appear on BOTH list. Wouldn't that narrow their efforts even more?

Just a cautious thought on my part...

[Brewhaus]

The list that the TTB has from the producers is of people that have purchased a distiller, column, or boiler. No cross-referencing is necessary. Those on the list have purchased said equipment. Adding the HDA list would have no value in that respect. The only thing that the HDA list would give them is a list of people not on the existing TTB list who may or may not have a distiller. Given that there are supporters who do not distill, there would be a lot of man-hours spent chasing dead ends by using that list. They already have more names than they can follow up on, so giving any consideration to the HDA list would actually make it a less focused effort. As a retired cop put it to me (he no longer distills, no longer has equipment, but is on the HDA list)- law enforcement will go after the lowest hanging fruit. They have the confirmed list, so they are not going to bastardize it.

[Snuffy-ga]

All I can say is "HARRUMPH!" because my experience with the US gov is not wonderful. When I was in the US Marine corps if a call was for volunteers it usually meant you could get your arse shot off. Taxes are spent on garbage while people starve. Elected representatives are arrested every day for taking bribes and a promise doesn't mean squat. America even goes to war to promote business and increase job availability at home. Do I trust anyone even locally? HELL NO! The sheriff of my county has been using locals to produce shine for him for profit and has often been seen loading his stash into gov owned vehicles for distribution. No one dares confront him because he can bring down a world of hurt on you. But he maintained a dry county for years.

Now you are asking us to believe that the TTB will not follow up on a list of suspected distillers. With so much handed to them and so many careers to bolster I don't see how they could resist. You say that those you have dealt with are very nice, well friend everyone knows that you catch more flies with honey. All of us are low hanging fruit once they have a name and address. And if you show from two or more directions at the same time you have twice the exposure. I for-see this being a major backfire in a lot of ways. Now do I want a legal status? You bet! Am I going to volunteer to be shot at? Not anymore. Call me an opinionated old fart if you want, Ill keep peeping through the blinds and looking over my shoulder because that is what I have done for most of my life and I am still kicking.

I very much thank those of you that are willing to put up the fight. I guess that my fight ended in southeast Asia. I just don't have it anymore. Just let me brew a gallon a month and I will be happy. Now would I anonymously forward your flyers to my congressmen? YEP. And I would suggest they do us all a favor by passing a bill for us? Oh yeah. Everyone wants more taxes and yes I would pay an annual fee for the right to distill. States are looking at the money Colorado is raising by the legalization of pot so I am sure if it ever got started it would progress to a level of respectability.

Not since the war of northern aggression has the southern culture been so demeaned. They are still trying to make us all criminals.

Until then, good luck my friend.

[planethax]

Snuffy
I think what Brewhaus is trying to say is
Not that the ttb could be trusted not to go after and use the list
It's that the list wouldn't be useful to them and as would dilute the list they already have which is already too big for them to go after each name.

[S-Cackalacky]

I see too many possibilities for abuse of that list. On a server that may be connected either directly or indirectly to the internet, it is subject to hacking. If lists are provided to politicians, they are susceptable to being leaked. If they fall into the hands of state or local law inforcement, they could have a field day. Doesn't matter that everyone on the list isn't a stiller, it's still enough ro raise suspicion and closer scrutiny.

It's difficult for me to believe that puting names on a list could be so important to this effort. Are the politicians so stupid that they don't realize that we are currently operating outside the law - that's the whole point. I would think that a person registering anonymously from a particular state would be sufficient inrormation. Will a politician only recognize my commitment if I'm willing to hang my own ass out to dry?

[Snuffy-ga]

Well said. But we need to remember that some would vote several times if possible so yes they would look for proof that each name was a good 'vote' or at least verifiable.

[Snuffy-ga]

Snuffy
I think what Brewhaus is trying to say is
Not that the ttb could be trusted not to go after and use the list
It's that the list wouldn't be useful to them and as would dilute the list they already have which is already too big for them to go after each name.

that sounds good but again, if your name appeared twice, once from the site that sold sold the product and then from the HDA list, instead of just deleting the second entry it would be easy to say "these are the ones we look at first".

[epicdoom]

Snuffy
I think what Brewhaus is trying to say is
Not that the ttb could be trusted not to go after and use the list
It's that the list wouldn't be useful to them and as would dilute the list they already have which is already too big for them to go after each name.

that sounds good but again, if your name appeared twice, once from the site that sold sold the product and then from the HDA list, instead of just deleting the second entry it would be easy to say "these are the ones we look at first".

I think The TTB having the vender list and seeing the same name on HDA list will just make them say well we already know he has a still says so rite here on this purchaser list.
I'm not seeing/hearing any Proof that any list has started an epidemic of home visits. Perhaps folks being visited have nosey neighbors that saw something, pissed off someone, is selling likker, was snitched on because a friend bragged where he got some shine from We just don't know, all we can do is read what others post here is it all true, false, somewhere in between??? who knows I would think if the TTB was so hell bent on bringing down people with small stills we would have heard dozens upon dozens of reports by now. I know for sure they have had at least one list since JUNE 2013 its my understanding that a list be sent every couple months so I'm sure they have Many lists, yet we are not hearing of many many busts or even if there related to THE LIST.

[S-Cackalacky]

Well said. But we need to remember that some would vote several times if possible so yes they would look for proof that each name was a good 'vote' or at least verifiable.

Snuffy, it's not a vote and it's not a petition - it's a membership list of people who join HDA. I don't think most people would spend $30 a pop to inflate the membership list. What I was saying is that the politicians should UNDERSTAND that some people might want to join HDA as anonymous members because they are involved in a currently illegal hobby. I would hope the HDA would find my $30 membership fee to be of equal or greater importance than my name and personal information.

[S-Cackalacky]

Snuffy
I think what Brewhaus is trying to say is
Not that the ttb could be trusted not to go after and use the list
It's that the list wouldn't be useful to them and as would dilute the list they already have which is already too big for them to go after each name.

that sounds good but again, if your name appeared twice, once from the site that sold sold the product and then from the HDA list, instead of just deleting the second entry it would be easy to say "these are the ones we look at first".

I think The TTB having the vender list and seeing the same name on HDA list will just make them say well we already know he has a still says so rite here on this purchaser list.
I'm not seeing/hearing any Proof that any list has started an epidemic of home visits. Perhaps folks being visited have nosey neighbors that saw something, pissed off someone, is selling likker, was snitched on because a friend bragged where he got some shine from We just don't know, all we can do is read what others post here is it all true, false, somewhere in between??? who knows I would think if the TTB was so hell bent on bringing down people with small stills we would have heard dozens upon dozens of reports by now. I know for sure they have had at least one list since JUNE 2013 its my understanding that a list be sent every couple months so I'm sure they have Many lists, yet we are not hearing of many many busts or even if there related to THE LIST.

Have you not read the thread about the Florida busts?

[epicdoom]

I have how many were there ? just because a poster thinks its related to the list doesn't mean it is. Has the TTB come and said were now busting people from (a list) when I see that statement Ill know for sure.