solder inside still a blackish color......

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distillrook84
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solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

Where the solder joins the bottom together, the actual solder turned like a dark blackish color after my water/vinegar, water & SCA run. Is this normal?
I have read on here that you can pretty up the outside with certain items can this also be used on this inside as long as you do not scrape the inside surface? for example I should be fine to line the inside perimeter with ketchup, let it set for an hour and then rinse with water?

Here is a picture. It has not been used it in a good month or so, so I am going to do my cleaning runs all over again because I am starting to see some rusting and it just over all looks nasty in there. I have since learned to drain every drip of liquid before storage. I think that is what contributed to the nastiness of the picture.
20140330_210729.jpg
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bearriver
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by bearriver »

Many folks pull a cloth through pipe on a string to get the black out. Its just like cleaning a firearm with an Otis kit. Others don't worry about it.

In the case of your boiler you might want to consider scouring the inside with a soft cloth and bar keepers friend. But it will (unfortunately) look like new and probably need another series of cleaning runs if you do...

I just got what I could out of my rig and called it good. The black stuff is less prominent if you don't use too much solder and/or flux.
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distillrook84
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

never heard of Bar keepers friend but it seems like it would do the job. thank you for the advice.
I would rather suffer through a long cleaning run vs nasty likker.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by bearriver »

distillrook84 wrote:never heard of Bar keepers friend.
Well than meet your new best friend. The first time you scorch a mash, you will thank whoever makes that stuff.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rad14701 »

What's wrong with a patina on the solder just like you get on the copper...??? No need cleaning it... It's a tool, let it form its own protective covering and stop scrubbing it off...
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by OBX Phantom »

Not sure what that boiler is mae of but it shouldn't be made of anything that will rust.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by googe »

What part of the still is the picture?. Rad, I get that same look when I brush a hot soldered joint with flux, I always thought it was the acid in the flux turning it black. is it the same deal with acid in a wash turning it black?. If that's what is happening :think:
Edit; now I've thought about it, maybe it's the oils?, heat plus oils = black/burnt?.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by bearriver »

The picture is the inside of a copper boiler.

I'm not so sure the black he has is the same black patina that soldered joints can get with time. His boiler is apparently new and shouldn't have any patina on it right? Sorry if I am mistaken, but I'm under the same impression as Googe.

Rad makes an excellent point on a common subject. Once its done its done. You clean it with boiling alcohol every time you use it :lol:
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rad14701 »

googe wrote:What part of the still is the picture?. Rad, I get that same look when I brush a hot soldered joint with flux, I always thought it was the acid in the flux turning it black. is it the same deal with acid in a wash turning it black?. If that's what is happening :think:
Edit; now I've thought about it, maybe it's the oils?, heat plus oils = black/burnt?.
You shouldn't be using acid based flux or acid core solder to begin with, unless soldering stainless steel of course... It never needs to be used to solder copper to copper... Water based flux is the best solution for that...


@ the OP

After a run, simply hot rinse... If nothing carries over into the distilled spirits as black flecks there is no reason to ever do more aggressive cleaning...
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by googe »

I was always under the impression acid flux is best for copper to copper, other fluxes burn with direct heat. And the acid helps clean the join?.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rad14701 »

googe wrote:I was always under the impression acid flux is best for copper to copper, other fluxes burn with direct heat. And the acid helps clean the join?.
It should already be adequately clean... H2O based flux and 95%/5% solder works fine for me on clean copper... Muriatic acid and 95%/5% when joining SS and copper... For old copper I sand and then prep with muriatic acid before soldering... But whatever works for you and can be cleaned up without too much trouble would be fine... :thumbup:
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by DAD300 »

Silver tarnishes black........
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distillrook84
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

googe wrote:What part of the still is the picture?. Rad, I get that same look when I brush a hot soldered joint with flux, I always thought it was the acid in the flux turning it black. is it the same deal with acid in a wash turning it black?. If that's what is happening :think:
Edit; now I've thought about it, maybe it's the oils?, heat plus oils = black/burnt?.
this is looking into the boiler. so you are seeing the bottom.
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distillrook84
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

OBX Phantom wrote:Not sure what that boiler is mae of but it shouldn't be made of anything that will rust.
It is 100% copper. I was unaware that you should remove every drop of water. then I found this place.

I think the water eventually evaporated and left rust.

I get a slight rust residue when I do my vinegar/water, water & SAC run.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rad14701 »

That shouldn't be rust if it's copper and solder... That would be copper oxide that the acidity of the vinegar ate off the inside of the still...
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

I went ahead and did a practice cleaning on a 1 gallon still. This is different from the original image I posted. (I just wanted to make sure I was not ruining my "good" still.) I think I am going to go ahead and give it a good scrubbing and then let it naturally patina.

here are the results:
20140331_202359.jpg
20140331_223100.jpg
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rad14701 »

You're gonna get chemical reactions between the copper and aluminum foil and the high proof alcohol will deteriorate the aluminum... Use flour paste instead...
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distillrook84
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by distillrook84 »

rad14701 wrote:You're gonna get chemical reactions between the copper and aluminum foil and the high proof alcohol will deteriorate the aluminum... Use flour paste instead...

did not think of that. thank you
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by BigSwede »

I'd guess the leftover crud from soldering comes often from petroleum-based fluxes, the greasy stuff. It gets into cracks and crevices, and with each use, a little is boiled out to smear and stain. That's why aqueous fluxes are preferred. They wash out nicely.

There's nothing wrong with "pickling" still parts if you want to clean some of the crud out. I'd do some experiments first to see what the pickle does to the solder in there. It can definitely vary with the solder alloy, antimony vs. silver, etc.

I'd try gentle solutions of citric acid, phosphoric acid, both totally safe. 95% Phosphoric acid (it's syrup thick) can be bought on eBay for a few bucks. Obviously dilute quite a bit first. There's also nothing wrong in theory with mineral acids like sulfuric and hydrochloric. Or a pool "pH down" from a local store, like sodium bisulfate. I'd avoid nitric acid in any amount.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by Hound Dog »

I think DAD hit it on the head. Silver tarnished black. The seams in my still look all tarnished up too and its not even silver solder, just lead free. Heck they blend right on with the tarnished patina crud of the copper too. Doesn't look nearly as clean as that pot if you shine a light down in mine! :P
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by funkdittle »

careful with that aluminum foil where the vapor passes by, I added a bit of foil just passed my lid where my column attaches in order to cover up a galvanized steel flange and the two runs I ran with the foil in there I had fires, the first fire wasnt too scary but the second one pushed the lid up abit and was spitten flames for about a minute until the pot cooled. right when i saw the flames i flicked off my heat source and poured water on my lid. After this second incident I looked up if aluminum promotes combustion and sure enough it does, it's used in rocket engines to promote combustion and is also not supposed to be used as piping in ethanol fueled cars because it promotes sparks. I took that junk out RIGHT AWAY!
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by Prairiepiss »

funkdittle wrote:careful with that aluminum foil where the vapor passes by, I added a bit of foil just passed my lid where my column attaches in order to cover up a galvanized steel flange and the two runs I ran with the foil in there I had fires, the first fire wasnt too scary but the second one pushed the lid up abit and was spitten flames for about a minute until the pot cooled. right when i saw the flames i flicked off my heat source and poured water on my lid. After this second incident I looked up if aluminum promotes combustion and sure enough it does, it's used in rocket engines to promote combustion and is also not supposed to be used as piping in ethanol fueled cars because it promotes sparks. I took that junk out RIGHT AWAY!
Aluminium in a non faris metal. Which means it will not spark. So I have no clue how it could promote sparks?

And if you had a fire. It wasn't the aluminium foil. It was an alcohol vapor leak. Aluminium foil is not a good sealing material.

And galvanized steel flange? Should never been used to begin with. And aluminium isn't any better.


I really don't understand the need to have the inside of the still shiny clean. There is such a thing as to clean. It's like a good old cast iron pan. It needs to be seasoned. And kept seasoned. Or it doesn't work as good as it should.

If it wasn't black when you did the first cleaning. Then its not flux. Or burnt flux. Because you would have seen it then. It's just the patena that is good for proper seasoning of the still.

Unless it was actual less solder used? Which will turn a dark grey. That may look blackish to some. So did you use lead free solder?

And as dad stated silver will tarnish black. Again seasoned for good operation. As it has the same properties as copper does.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by Hound Dog »

funkdittle wrote:careful with that aluminum foil where the vapor passes by, I added a bit of foil just passed my lid where my column attaches in order to cover up a galvanized steel flange and the two runs I ran with the foil in there I had fires, the first fire wasnt too scary but the second one pushed the lid up abit and was spitten flames for about a minute until the pot cooled. right when i saw the flames i flicked off my heat source and poured water on my lid. After this second incident I looked up if aluminum promotes combustion and sure enough it does, it's used in rocket engines to promote combustion and is also not supposed to be used as piping in ethanol fueled cars because it promotes sparks. I took that junk out RIGHT AWAY!
Wow, aluminum to cover galvanized steel? Really? You posted that here? :think: You might want to read up a bit..... :wink: Just sayin'.........
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by funkdittle »

well galvanized steel is non potable and aluminum is potable i believe so that was my conclusion lol. and the only 2 fires i've had in 2 years of this hobby were with that foil in there, the only 2 times I ran it with the foil and after some research confirmed my suspicion. I talked to one guy about it and he said aluminum foil isn't 100% aluminum, there are random fillers and what not so that may be why?
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by rager »

funkdittle wrote:well galvanized steel is non potable and aluminum is potable i believe so that was my conclusion lol. and the only 2 fires i've had in 2 years of this hobby were with that foil in there, the only 2 times I ran it with the foil and after some research confirmed my suspicion. I talked to one guy about it and he said aluminum foil isn't 100% aluminum, there are random fillers and what not so that may be why?
two fires in two years????????/ :shock:

that's kinda scary. I don't want any fires ever!!! you should read this and stop what you are doing.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 44&t=49654
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by funkdittle »

no actually 2 fires in 2 weeks. the first week I had the foil in there and the second. That's why it's no longer in there.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by Hound Dog »

funkdittle wrote:no actually 2 fires in 2 weeks. the first week I had the foil in there and the second. That's why it's no longer in there.
I would still suggest that you ditch the galvanized steel flange that you used to have the aluminum foil over. Use copper or stainless and you will be better off. Just my suggestion though, it is your still and spirits. Be safe!
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by BigSwede »

It's not the foil causing a fire, unless an edge is exposed to direct flame. In that case, it can potentially melt and even burn if there is additional fuel like ethanol. And Al foil is 99.99% (or something) aluminum. Quite pure. That's what makes it work, elemental Al is dead soft. Please jettison aluminum and galvanized anything from a still.

Interesting, off-topic trivia time: Modern aluminum alloys can be both stronger AND harder than steel. Compare the specs of 7075-T6 aluminum and C1018 cold-roll steel. It's great stuff, just not for a still. Please keep aluminum away from alcohol, they don't go together.
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Re: solder inside still a blackish color......

Post by copper sweat »

I'd also be afraid to use that brass elbow with the plastic sleeve especially on the down hill side of the column.
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