Jimbo's Electric Conversion

[Prairiepiss]

Sure for running, its pure reference, mark where works. But getting the numbers right, at least once, to understand the true power levels lets us help others when questions come up here about how much power does it take to do this or that, or how fast will it run at x power etc

Edit: That can be done with a hand held meter. I said below if done again, Id leave the meters off. They dont add a lot of value. I have marks with tape on the dial on where my run points are, thats about all thats really needed.

And exact numbers tend to become gospel. So people think they have to do it that way. And think if they don't they have a problem. Each still will be different. Along with each situation. And the difference between a true RMS meter and a non true RMS meter. Isn't going to make a big enough difference. To help someone else that is running a different still and a different wash in a different location.

Unless you are running an automated system like the istill. And sharing info with other istill operators. Being off a little bit. Isn't gona hurt a thing.

But if you feel the need to have exact numbers. Go for it. Just please when you refer to those numbers. Remind people what works for you may not for them.

I find this to be much like thermometers in pot stills. Or making cuts by ABV or temp. Sory but none of these number tell me if it tastes or smells good.

[sthudium]

Sure for running, its pure reference, mark where works. But getting the numbers right, at least once, to understand the true power levels lets us help others when questions come up here about how much power does it take to do this or that, or how fast will it run at x power etc

Edit: That can be done with a hand held meter. I said below if done again, Id leave the meters off. They dont add a lot of value. I have marks with tape on the dial on where my run points are, thats about all thats really needed.

Another issue, at least for me, is that my potentiometer setting vs. power output is far from linear. I have to turn the pot over half-way before it even begins to output substantial power, and then a little pot movement causes a large power change.

Consequently, the power marks around the pot, will be scrunched closely together.

[sthudium]

... the difference between a true RMS meter and a non true RMS meter. Isn't going to make a big enough difference....

If you review Jimbo's data for V(RMS) vs V(AVE), you will see at 3000 watts that the error between the two voltage readings is 27% and at 500 watts the error is 76%.

[lampshade]

Does anybody insulate the boiler?

I know that a few folks insulate the column on a reflux still in order to prevent disturbances to the equilibrium.

There is a reason that your home water heater is insulated, and that is to minimize heat loss so that less energy is needed to achieve the desired water temperature.

[humbledore]

Lots of people do just for that reason.

[rad14701]

Another issue, at least for me, is that my potentiometer setting vs. power output is far from linear. I have to turn the pot over half-way before it even begins to output substantial power, and then a little pot movement causes a large power change.

Consequently, the power marks around the pot, will be scrunched closely together.

Which controller are your running...??? Having to turn the potentiometer up roughly a third of the way is indicative of single time constant as well as some dual time constant triac base controllers as the voltage to the tirac has to reach the breakover voltage of ~30 volts... Once this voltage is exceeded it is possible to reduce voltage down to ~5 volts before the triac stops firing...

I have built both of those styles from scratch but prefer the zero hysteresis design which does not possess that trait... It comes on somewhere between 3 - 5 volts as I recall and works fine all the way up to ~95% mains voltage...

[lampshade]

Lots of people do just for that reason.

I was thinking about the people who use power management for control.

In the case of the uninsulated boiler, the true power that is applied to the wash is actually the power that the controller provides minus the power that the uninsulated boiler looses to the environment, which I'm sure is a few hundred watts. If memory serves me, The Compleat Distiller addresses this issue and provides a calibration procedure for an uninsulated still.

I'm sure this issue is also relevant for those people who use a closed-system cooling approach and notice that their basement/garage gets uncomfortably warm.

[The KYChemist]

Heeeey Jimbo! I have a few questions for ya. I was going to PM you, but the questions I have, seem relevant to this thread, to help others out as well. There are just a few aspects I'm foggy on, for wiring up the SCR controller. In attachment #1, I have provided my proposed wiring diagram. This is my best effort, that came from research here, and elsewhere. First question is, will this work? My research tells me it should. Second question is for wiring up the red and black wires, to the controller. The SCR controller clearly has AC in and AC out labelled, as seen in attachment #2. I figure you have to keep black wire in/out and red wire in/out directly across from each other. I'm just confused as to which port the red would go into, and which port the black would go into. Next question... Would I use the red wire, or the black wire, to run to the shunt? I figure red is supply, so that is what would be used, assuming my wiring diagram is correct. Final question... The shunt being used is a 50amp 75mv. I chose this one, because the gauge is 50 amp. I'm going to be running off the dryer outlet, which is a 30 amp breaker. Is this acceptable? I figure, this way, the gauge theoretically would be able to read 50 amp at max, even though it will never be pushed that hard. I see myself not pushing more than 25ish amps through the controller. Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions.

[sambedded]

Red and black wires are symmetrical so it doesn't. matter how to connect them to controller or which touse for shunt.
50 amp shunt and gauge is OK.

You alsoneed either fan or bigger heatsink.

[Jimbo]

Red and black wires are symmetrical so it doesn't. matter how to connect them to controller or which touse for shunt.
50 amp shunt and gauge is OK.

You alsoneed either fan or bigger heatsink.

+1

I think he answered them all KY, anything else youre scratching your head about?

[The KYChemist]

I think we're pretty much good... Two 80mm pc fans will be added, at the front of the control box, with vent holes at the back of the box. They will be run off their own 12vdc adaptor and PC fan controller. Overall, though, my wiring diagram is correct? I was going to use 10g wiring for the rest of the build, as well. Is this also acceptable?

[Jimbo]

I think we're pretty much good... Two 80mm pc fans will be added, at the front of the control box, with vent holes at the back of the box. They will be run off their own 12vdc adaptor and PC fan controller. Overall, though, my wiring diagram is correct? I was going to use 10g wiring for the rest of the build, as well. Is this also acceptable?

If youre running 12V fans, youll need 120V for the fan's power supply. So you'll need the white wire. In a pinch you could use black (or red) to ground for 120V but I might get shot for saying that.....

10ga is good.

[The KYChemist]

With the research I've done on the "grow" forums, a 12vdc adaptor should run it, just fine, by itself. Shouldn't have to tap into the white wire. I could be wrong, also. I'm trying to keep the fan wiring separate from the controller wiring.

[Jimbo]

With the research I've done on the "grow" forums, a 12vdc adaptor should run it, just fine, by itself. Shouldn't have to tap into the white wire. I could be wrong, also. I'm trying to keep the fan wiring separate from the controller wiring.

So youll plug the 12V adapter into its own 120V outlet? Thats fine, but you got volts out the wang in your box, why not use em? And have one less thing to dork with? I use a 12V adapter for mine too, 9V actually, on a 12V fan just to quiet it down a little.

[The KYChemist]

Wouldn't wiring the fans up, to the white wire fry them, when they only pull about .160 amps, apiece. Then, how would you even wire it up. Hook both whites up to the reds, and the the blacks grounded to the box? Would the fans need their own resistor? For the electrically illiterate, such as myself, I don't mind doing my proposed method. Would love to hear more about the way you propose, Jimbo.

[Jimbo]

Wouldn't wiring the fans up, to the white wire fry them, when they only pull about .160 amps, apiece. Then, how would you even wire it up. Hook both whites up to the reds, and the the blacks grounded to the box? Would the fans need their own resistor? For the electrically illiterate, such as myself, I don't mind doing my proposed method. Would love to hear more about the way you propose, Jimbo.

no no no. You need to power the 120V to 12V adapter off 120. Black and Red are 240. Black (or Red) and White are 120. White is Neutral. My ground comment (Black and Ground make 120) is because back at your fuse box, White and Ground are the same, tied to the same busbar. Pull the cover off and have a look. Normally I wouldnt recommend this, but to power a plastic 'wall wart' 12V adapter I dont see the harm. In the old (more dangerous) days, 1 single wire was run out to an outbuilding. And Neutral/Ground was a copper pipe pounded into the ground. But I digress.

[The KYChemist]

The black and red I was referring to are the wires for the PC fans, themselves.

[Jimbo]

Hook both fans in parallel to the black and red 12V lines. If you invert those DC lines your fans may spin the opposite direction.

You could also wire the fans in series. They'll run slower and quieter since its half voltage. You may find 12V fans runnign on 12V to be annoying as hell. It doesnt take much air to keep the heatsink cool on these fleabay SCR's

[sambedded]

Most modern 12V wall power adapters are universal and can work from 120V and from240v as well. Just check writings on your adaptor. If it does support 220-240 you can wire it inside the box.

[The KYChemist]

Alright, alright, alright... Got most of my wiring done, tonight. Hoping you guys can take a look, and tell me its good! If not, be as harsh as you need to. Wired this up, according to my diagram, earlier in this thread.

Attach #1 shows the side where power supply enters the SCR controller. Not a lot of good detail in this photo. The wire running back, towards my hand, is coming from the power out to the shunt.

Attach # 2 shows some more detail. First, we will pay attention to the hook-up, for the SCR. The terminal port, closest to the camera, holds two wires. The upper wire runs underneath the shunt, to the shunt itself. You can see how it attaches, in attach #1. The lower wire runs to the voltmeter. The terminal, closest to the lid, currently only holds one wire. That is the other wire for the voltmeter. The second wire, it will hold, will go to the plug, which will go to the keg.

Attach #3 shows the rest. You can see how the shunt is wired. The two small screws are wired to the ammeter. The large screw, on the right hand side of the shunt, will be wired to the plug, going to the keg.

If im correct, the A meter and V meter are not polarity specific. This means they should be fine, wired the way they are. Anyway, tell me what you think.

[The KYChemist]

Its Silver Bullet time! Just tested out the power controller, and it worked great. Everything went smoothly, with one minor hiccup. I'll get to that at the end. Tested the keg, with about 6 gallons of water. This was a good 4 inches above the element. With the plug about to go into the wall, I was a good deal trepadatious, to say the least. I was expecting bangs, pops, and dreaded white smoke. NADA! All gauges read zero, since I had the knob turned all the way to the left. I figured those crazy Chinese would at least have the zero setting where it should be. Turning the knob slowly, to the right, the needles began to rise. A good sign. I took the knob all the way to the 215 mark, on the voltmeter. Looking inside the keg, I could see the bubbles forming on the element, and also hear it running. Not a peep from the controller, itself. I played with the knob, taking it up and down slowly, and the voltmeter needle behaved accordingly. The hiccup: my ammeter gauge only got as high as 7.5 amps. I'll have to wait until I can hook up with the mechanic, to see if we can diagnose the problem. After about 10 minutes of playing, I was able to get the water to a very nice bath water warm/hot temperature. This was just a quick test, before filling the keg and attaching the other bits and bobs, for a full vapor leak. I call it a win!

Thank you again, to all, for your guidance. Especially Jimbo... My SCR controller cost a good deal more, than a simple one could be built for. I like the bells and whistles, though. With the ease of the SCR, I don't see why others even bother with the other types. Too many pieces to have to put together. Again, thank you all!

[Jimbo]

Nice work KY! Youre gonna love it. Kick myself for not going electric years ago! Best thing I ever did for my brew setup.

[epicdoom]

Going electric also. I work on SCR systems daily so I have a good understanding of them. I decided to go SCR due to better control over the other set ups I have read about. I will however build SSR set up to test. I have my 5500W element and I TIG welded in all the fittings needed for drain, heater and a thermo port. Ill be taking my unit to full automation maybe at the end of summer I'm writing and testing the code for a home made control unit for that now and testing on a small scale interfacing with my computer. I will have everything monitored and some valve controls. When done I'll look at using Arduino since its popular and fairly easy for new comers to work with and has tons of accessories that can be useful.
will keep you good folks posted.

[White_Lightning_Rod]

Quick question Ive reading through this thread a couple dozen times making sure I have a good understanding before I jump on this project. Ive got a decent understanding of it all but I do have a couple questions. I am comfortable installing a breaker and running a dedicated circut I have a good understanding of the conroller build, I suppose my questions would be more a matter of convience.

First of all checking around locally I have found these elements pretty cheap http://www.amazon.com/Camco-Screw-In-Fo ... amco+4500w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I dont mind to order the 5500W ULWD if you guys think I will have a significantly higher risk of scorching with the LWD vs ULWD. I would just prefer to buy locally as long as Im not sacrificing quality.

My next question is dependent on the answer to the first I suppose. I read that the 5500x draws ~23 amps at full tilt, if I were to go with the 4500w would I be safe with a 20amp breaker and plugs like these?
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-620PV-Vol ... =220v+plug" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I know if I go to 5500w I will need a 30a breaker and 30 amp plugs.

Im not concerned about the diffrence in heat up times with the 4500 and 5500 either is going to be WAY better than the propane im using now.

Im getting my parts list made up havent purchased anything yet just trying to decide which way I am going.

[sambedded]

I read that the 5500x draws ~23 amps at full tilt, if I were to go with the 4500w would I be safe with a 20amp breaker and plugs like these?

4500Watt element requires ~19A. So it will be safe to use 20A breaker and that plug.

[Dallywolf]

I read that the 5500x draws ~23 amps at full tilt, if I were to go with the 4500w would I be safe with a 20amp breaker and plugs like these?

4500Watt element requires ~19A. So it will be safe to use 20A breaker and that plug.

On a continuous load you shouldn't exceed 80% on the breaker. You're likely to trip the breaker running at 19 amps on a 20.

[BoisBlancBoy]

Anyone with this setup run a potentiometer or the like on the fan? Or just an on off switch, or does the heat sink get pretty warm?

[Jimbo]

I run a small PC fan, 3" size on 9V supply (12V fan). 1 fan cooling 2 ea. 10,000W SCR's. No problems at all. The heatsinks get only slightly warm.

[BoisBlancBoy]

I have two of the PC fans and just found a wall wort. I'm thinking I will put a switch in for the fan or something for hi, medium and low. I'm just looking forward to electric being so quiet, if I don't have to listen to the fan I want to give myself that option. Of course if I need to cool the heat sinks they will always be on. Then again the cooler they are the longer they will last. So this is just me overthinking something simple.

[Jimbo]

1 fan is pretty quiet at 9V. I can hear the liquid gurgling in the pot