Temp Control - you're doing it wrong.

brewing_brad · Post by **brewing_brad** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:45 am

G'day all,

I learnt a very valuable lesson the other day. That lesson? I'm an idiot!

See, I've been reading all this material on reflux stills which told me that the vapours rise up into the column and when they contact all the bits of ceramic and steel wool etc up there it condenses and falls back and repeats the cycle until it gets to the top and trickles out.

I also learnt that the ideal temp to be producing the good stuff is somewhere between 75C and 82C (167F and 180F).

So, that's what I did. I turned the still on, let it heat up and when it reached the ideal temp, I turned on the water to keep the temp there.

I was wondering why my 'shine wasn't tasting as good as everyone said it should!

Turns out, you get MUCH better results if you turn the water on BEFORE the temp reaches the ideal. Try and keep it in the column for as long as possible. The more times it evaporates and condenses, the purer the end result!

See, everyone said this, all the books I've read, all the posts on this site, everyone said it but it just didn't sink in.

Oh well, I've learnt my lesson now and the last batch I made tasted SO FRICKEN GOOD!

Just wanted to share my stupidity. Live and learn, 'eh.

Cheers
Brad

Post by **LWTCS** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:29 am

The devil is in the details.

No matter. WTG.

Post by **MuleKicker** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:26 am

Heat control, not temperature control. You cannot control the temp of your still. (just pointing out

)

Post by **rad14701** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:37 am

Nice to hear that you managed to finally do enough research for things to make sense, brewing_brad... Far too many novices see those temperature ranges and suddenly think they are armed with all the information they need and stop reading... After a failure or three they end up on the right path either through additional research or by asking questions...

This is why we repeatedly state that new members should read the parent site through a good three times... The first time through is a bit overwhelming... The second time through things start making some sense... And the third time through the pieces start coming together and you start getting answers to questions you didn't even know you had yet...

Now, not all of the information on the parent site is up to date, and some is even flawed... That being said, it at least gives a good overview and helps raise questions that can then be answered here in these forums, which are also a wealth of valuable information...

Glad you're headed down the right path now, brewing_brad...

brewing_brad · Post by **brewing_brad** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:54 pm

MuleKicker wrote:Heat control, not temperature control. You cannot control the temp of your still. (just pointing out )

See! Learnin' new things all the time!

brewing_brad · Post by **brewing_brad** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:03 pm

rad14701 wrote:Nice to hear that you managed to finally do enough research for things to make sense, brewing_brad... Far too many novices see those temperature ranges and suddenly think they are armed with all the information they need and stop reading... After a failure or three they end up on the right path either through additional research or by asking questions...

This is why we repeatedly state that new members should read the parent site through a good three times... The first time through is a bit overwhelming... The second time through things start making some sense... And the third time through the pieces start coming together and you start getting answers to questions you didn't even know you had yet...

Now, not all of the information on the parent site is up to date, and some is even flawed... That being said, it at least gives a good overview and helps raise questions that can then be answered here in these forums, which are also a wealth of valuable information...

Glad you're headed down the right path now, brewing_brad...

You're right. The more you can read up and re-read the better. I've now downloaded the site files and will be printing them off (as soon as I buy more ink) so I have it on hand. I've got me a nice folder building up with useful info I find on this site and others (and without blowing smoke up anyone's arse, I reckon this site and forum is one of the best resources out there).

But that being said, also I reckon everyone needs a few failed attempt under their belts so they can go back and think about what went wrong. The research didn't sink in for me until that happened. But then again, that could just be the way my brain works.

Cheers
Brad

loneswinger · Post by **loneswinger** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:14 pm

People trying to control the temp at the top of the still seems to be one of the most common mistakes made when they first start, so it is not just you. I'll bet that this problem shows up at least twice a week. Maybe because we are used to thermostats, I don't know. Boiling points determine temperature, not humans.

Maybe there should be a sticky thread titled, "you control power not temperature", in the novice section. Then I could just tell people to read that when the problem shows up. You can tell people to read the parent site but there is a lot of information in there that is not useful to most people, and it is not the easiest to navigate.

BTW, I like the title of this thread, caught my attention.

-Loneswinger

Ayay · Post by **Ayay** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:41 am

Well done b_b! There's so much to absorb before doing it and then it's like starting all over again on a new level.

The temp is the indicator of what's happening in a column. You can control the heat input, the reflux ratio, and the coolant. The temp tells us the final tally of all three but not which one.

Making the cuts is harder and the temp is a good guide if you recorded the temp for each collection bottle.

Keep going cos it'll only get better.

brewing_brad · Post by **brewing_brad** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:38 am

Ayay wrote:Keep going cos it'll only get better.

Believe you me, Ayay, now that I've tasted how good it can be doing it right, I ain't stoppin' until I've tasted how good it can be done correctly! I got a long way to go yet and a whole heap more experimentin' to do, but I'll get there and I'm gonna enjoy every sip of the way

Post by **MuleKicker** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:31 pm

loneswinger wrote:People trying to control the temp at the top of the still seems to be one of the most common mistakes made when they first start, so it is not just you. I'll bet that this problem shows up at least twice a week.
-Loneswinger

For sure. I'll let you in on a little secret..... I used to be one of those guys. I built my controller, had it configured to chase temp.. I tweeked and tweeked on the thing until i figured out I had it completely wrong.

I have preached this concept to many trying to build pid controllers. Some never really get the picture.

Post by **Fastill** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:44 pm

It's not about finding the best temp to run your setup at, Its all about finding what temp your still runs the best at, and it will let you know long before you can make it run where it doesn't want to.
In full reflux mode, I can't make my still vary more than 1/2 a degree celcius, heat way up or heat to just a boil. It is only during a fast takeoff rate that the column temp will even think about going over 78c, and the hotter I run the bottom, the cooler it runs on top. Just more reflux to keep the temps down.
I will say that after many hours of reading here, it took hands on running in order to truly understand what is going on with my still.

loneswinger · Post by **loneswinger** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:27 pm

Fastill wrote:It's not about finding the best temp to run your setup at, Its all about finding what temp your still runs the best at, and it will let you know long before you can make it run where it doesn't want to.
In full reflux mode, I can't make my still vary more than 1/2 a degree celcius, heat way up or heat to just a boil. It is only during a fast takeoff rate that the column temp will even think about going over 78c, and the hotter I run the bottom, the cooler it runs on top. Just more reflux to keep the temps down.
I will say that after many hours of reading here, it took hands on running in order to truly understand what is going on with my still.

This is well put. Maybe this very thread is what I will link to from now on.

-Loneswinger

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:58 pm

why is there plans for micro processor heater controls that crank up or down the power and based on temperature in the forum? isn't a basic kitchen hotplate more than sufficient to vary the power?

I can't remember where I read it but, tea urn thermostats are no good and need to be replaced with " expensive" power controllers. I couldn't imagine it being that expensive if it doesn't need to be particularly sophisticated??

Ayay · Post by **Ayay** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:52 am

brewing_brad wrote:
Ayay wrote:Keep going cos it'll only get better.
Believe you me, Ayay, now that I've tasted how good it can be doing it right, I ain't stoppin' until I've tasted how good it can be done correctly! I got a long way to go yet and a whole heap more experimentin' to do, but I'll get there and I'm gonna enjoy every sip of the way

Cheers b_b!

RyanS wrote:why is there plans for micro processor heater controls that crank up or down the power and based on temperature in the forum? isn't a basic kitchen hotplate more than sufficient to vary the power?

I can't remember where I read it but, tea urn thermostats are no good and need to be replaced with " expensive" power controllers. I couldn't imagine it being that expensive if it doesn't need to be particularly sophisticated??

RyanS, the heat input needs to be very steady. It's the difference between a thermostat that kicks in and out accordin to the min and max of the thermostat which is situated in the wrong place usually next to the heat source. It's constantly fluctuating by switchin on an off...either full-blast or zero.

A steady heat remains exactly where you set it. You decide to dial it up or down according to the reflux ratio, the thermometer at the top of the column, and/or the drips coming out at the end of the whole process.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:30 am

Okay, so does a gas or Electric hotplate usually have steady heat output controls?

scotty · Post by **scotty** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:43 am

RyanS wrote:Okay, so does a gas or Electric hotplate usually have steady heat output controls?

you need adjustable controlls. I use a variac with the electric heat elements. a router controll is good also. If you have a hot plate it should be modified to stay on full to allow the variac/router controll to adjust the applied voltage.

I think i finally learned that as the still reaches production temperature, to apply just enough heat to keep a slow drip rate and then to just watch the head temp to see how the distilling is going and when im close to quitting time.

Post by **rad14701** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:24 pm

RyanS wrote:Okay, so does a gas or Electric hotplate usually have steady heat output controls?

Gas, yes...

Electric hotplate, depends...

It depends on whether or not the hotplate uses a phase angle controller, which most don't... Most use proportional cycling which varies the On-Off cycling far slower than phase angle controllers which vary percentages of the 120 On-Off cycles per second AC uses... Phase angle is much smoother than proportional... For example, 50% power being On for half of each of the 120 AC power pulses (for 60Hz) is better than On for 30 seconds and Off for 30 seconds (possibly exaggerated) that a proportional cycling switch provides...

memetic · Post by **memetic** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:18 pm

rad14701 wrote:It depends on whether or not the hotplate uses a phase angle controller, which most don't... Most use proportional cycling which varies the On-Off cycling far slower than phase angle controllers which vary percentages of the 120 On-Off cycles per second AC uses... Phase angle is much smoother than proportional... For example, 50% power being On for half of each of the 120 AC power pulses (for 60Hz) is better than On for 30 seconds and Off for 30 seconds (possibly exaggerated) that a proportional cycling switch provides...

That is the simplest and best explanation I have read yet about the hotplate conundrum. I am going to copy/paste that into my notes thank you.

Post by **MuleKicker** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:59 pm

RyanS wrote:why is there plans for micro processor heater controls that crank up or down the power and based on temperature in the forum?

There has been talk about it by some folks, using a pid controller this way. but there arent any plans on how to build such a "temp controller". You want to control heat, but not based on temperature.

Schwartzer · Post by **Schwartzer** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:16 am

This just saved me a lot of time! Ok so if you wanted to control temp it would be primarily for heat up and the temp to watch would be the mash and not the column. This would allow the mash to heat up quickly but slow down right before you start coming in to boiling temp range. The slower to the boiling temperatures gives a better product. Once the mash is up to boil the temp should not change. Unless the reflux is altered then the power to the mash can be change to match the reflux. ( more power causes more vapors witch would require more cooling to knock the vapors down). The heat controller should be some form of constant heat not on off style.
Does this sound correct or did I miss something?

Post by **MuleKicker** » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:37 am

Schwartzer wrote:This just saved me a lot of time! Ok so if you wanted to control temp it would be primarily for heat up and the temp to watch would be the mash and not the column. This would allow the mash to heat up quickly but slow down right before you start coming in to boiling temp range. The slower to the boiling temperatures gives a better product. Once the mash is up to boil the temp should not change. Unless the reflux is altered then the power to the mash can be change to match the reflux. ( more power causes more vapors witch would require more cooling to knock the vapors down). The heat controller should be some form of constant heat not on off style.
Does this sound correct or did I miss something?

More heat causes more vapors, and yes, it requires more cooling. The temp is determined by the composition of the vapor, not the amount of heat.

mendodistilling · Post by **mendodistilling** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:07 pm

Do you guys use any input from the distilate on whether or not its running too fast for the condenser? I have a hillbilly still 26 gallon and I'm thinking that I need to keep an eye on my water in temperatures vs. rheostat settings as I've been told to stay within certain temps, 15-18C distillate temp in the parrot on first run, 13-15C on second run. I'm having to run dead slow to get thing under 15, which is ok. I've noticed that my controller is really just matching the outlet temperature to hit those numbers, am I approaching this correctly? I use my hand or candle wax w/ a can on a rope to let me know when the neck is hot, then I turn the water on to condense.

Can you run too slow?

I'd love your input, I'm hoping this is all done correctly, my stupid controller on/off switch fried midway through the run and I had to bypass it. I thought my burner went south and was really happy when I got my meter out and found out I'm still in good shape to finish the run!!!

Post by **F6Hawk** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:25 pm

Not sure this is right. but here's what I do. I heat mine up until about 120° and turn on the condenser (just dripping) until I see output, around 150° F. I then monitor column temp (today was 172°) as well as coolant output temp (try to keep it 100° or below to prevent vapors escaping out the column, which tends to happen about 110° on mine). I let this run in reflux for about 30 minutes, drain the fores, then shut off the output and let it stabilize again for another 15-20 minutes. With an output of 3-5 drips per second and heat as low as I can go on my burner and coolant flow around 5 gallons per hour, I can keep my still in reflux. I keep this running, pulling off my jars (usually 2 200ml jars after fores, then 2 500 ml jars, then 2-3 200ml jars) until I see the column temp rise and the coolant temp fall. When it its about 192°, I stop. I know for sure I am into the tails by then, and now I just let it sit to do my cuts in a day or two.

This got me 1950ml of output today, I know I will lose the first 200 and last 200 to feints, but I will taste-decide on the 2nd and next-to-last jars for keeping. That means I for sure get to keep 1L of 93% stuff. That's 2L of 45%. Not bad.

Of course, those temps are for MY still, and for ONE thermometer (I don't really care what the temp is, except to note what it stabilizes at, and when it climbs as the tails come out).

It took me a few reads to understand the fractioning going on, and some explaining by Rad, but I think I finally got it straight in my head. And even if I don't, I know how to do it, and I get decent output for a week's worth of wait on a ferment and 5 hours of time watching the drips coming out (allowed me to sweep and mop the garage today!).

BLUF... I don't aim for a temp to run at, except to note what temp the wash wants to boil and stabilize at. Then I let it run til it tells me it's done by changing it's temp without me doing anything else. Purty simple, when you think about it. Oh yeah, I threw some feints from last run into this run, so that too will vary the temp by a tad. Unlike my wife, she boiled and she put out. I like it that way!

Post by **F6Hawk** » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:28 pm

mendodistilling wrote:Do you guys use any input from the distilate on whether or not its running too fast for the condenser?

Your column should be vented at the top. If vapor comes out this hole, you are putting out more vapors than your condenser can handle. Either increase your coolant flow, decrease its temp, or turn down your flame. When I am stabilizing, I set my flame about as low as it will go (to save propane) and watch the coolant output temp to try and get it around 100° F or just under. Today I was able to keep it around 93° most of the run.

Notta Number · Post by **Notta Number** » Wed May 28, 2014 10:59 am

Ok, finally the information I have been searching for, thanks to everybody who contributed to this thread!

I have been trying to figure out how to fix my heat problem. My first run I ended up doing by manually switching the element on/off. Then I talked to an electrical engineer colleague of mine, and he tried to get me to implement a PID controller. But after talking it out with him for awhile, I came to believe that it was not temperature I was after, but heat control. So he then recommended a variac for me. I got on here and finally found this thread that confirmed my thought process, and his suggestion.

Oh man it feels good to finally get answers.

Except that variacs cost about 8 times what the PID controllers cost.

edit: YES, THIS SHOULD BE IN THE NOVICE SECTION! Whoever made that suggestion is a genius!

Red Rim · Post by **Red Rim** » Wed May 28, 2014 11:17 am

Both Jimbo (electric heat conversion) and T-pee ( screw this (propane)) have threads discussing this at length with links to scr controllers oor other inexpensive ways to regulate your power ($20).
Hope this helps!

abardente · Post by **abardente** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:38 am

This is what I do on my spirit runs, haven't tried reflux yet: get it hot enough to run pretty fast in the early hearts and then keep smelling it and turning the heat down to keep that tails smell at bay. Near the end of the hearts I'll have it down to just a steady drip, no stream, and the output smelling very clean, much more neutral than the early hearts, (which usually smell amazing) and it gets to the point where the drip is so slow that it's not worth my time so I turn up the heat again and start collecting tails, as opposed to waiting for tails to just happen, I control when I'm ready to start collecting tails. The reading at the top of the column seems to stay at 88C in the later hearts but my calibration could be off. On the last couple runs I've been pretty obsessive smelling and adjusting the gas flame and it seems to pay off. I don't think there's any magic trick to it, if you're just really careful and use good sense then it pays off, and never over power the still, use just barely enough flame to keep it streaming at the speed you want. I'm also paying close attention to where the stream breaks under the "money piece" and how it alternates between different strength streams and fast drips or not so fast drips. I'm sure there are more accurate way to measure flow rate.

Notta Number · Post by **Notta Number** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:17 pm

I also found another possible option, but wanted to run it past you guys. I've discovered a Router Speed Control (RSC), talked about in the HD forum. This looks like a great option, in terms of cost it is much cheaper. My question is more of efficacy. Does it work as well as the variac? Is it as efficient, more/less? Is one easier on the heating element than the other?

Almost there!

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:22 pm

Notta Number wrote:I also found another possible option, but wanted to run it past you guys. I've discovered a Router Speed Control (RSC), talked about in the HD forum. This looks like a great option, in terms of cost it is much cheaper. My question is more of efficacy. Does it work as well as the variac? Is it as efficient, more/less? Is one easier on the heating element than the other?

Almost there!

They work fine. They will last longer if you do a heatsinks mod. You can see mine in the harbor freight controller two element thread found in the must read new distiller reading lounge.

biggeroots · Post by **biggeroots** » Thu May 29, 2014 12:23 pm

scotty wrote:
RyanS wrote:Okay, so does a gas or Electric hotplate usually have steady heat output controls?
you need adjustable controlls. I use a variac with the electric heat elements. a router controll is good also. If you have a hot plate it should be modified to stay on full to allow the variac/router controll to adjust the applied voltage.

I think i finally learned that as the still reaches production temperature, to apply just enough heat to keep a slow drip rate and then to just watch the head temp to see how the distilling is going and when im close to quitting time.

I use a Phase Angle controller(PAC). In the pic is a remote power useage monitor clipped over the main power cable from the meter (free from e-on in the uk), it tells me the power used at any moment and the cost per hour or day etc. Very handy for accurately adjusting the PAC when tuning. On the left of pic is a pid temp display, I have the probe in the top of the column just before the vapours enter the cooling coil/head. Its very accurate (when calibrated). I can see the tiniest of changes if i touch the water coolant flow or PAC. I believe if you are after consistency and continuity then modern tech is the way to go.
The 6kw PAC was about 135 GB Pounds, seems a lot but worth every penny imho.

Home Distiller

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