Confused by different malts

[rawdawg1952]

Getting ready to try my first corn whiskey and I have a question about which malted barley to use. I have seen the 2-row and 6-row barley that I assume has already been malted. I usually see it suggested for use in beer and ales. I have also seen the 50 lb bags of distillers malt which is described as a highly modified High alpha amylase enzyme malt specifically for distilling. Which do I use? and can you guys point in the right direction for buying these supplies on-line. Thanks in advance for the help

[bearriver]

Distilller's malt is an interesting choice. It's high DP makes it capable of converting a large amount of unmalted grains, such as feed corn.

How to Brew by John Palmer will give you the detailed answers you need. It's a free online book, just Google it. You would be doing yourself a disservice to not at least check it out.

Edit: I also recommend trying a tried and true AG recipe first and foremost. Try one of Jimbo's recipes, or NChooch's recipe.

Here is a quote from midwest supplies:

What’s the difference between 2-row and 6-row?

Barley grown for brewers malt is called malting barley, as opposed to feed barley, and is divided into two general types; 2-row and 6-row. The most obvious difference between a head of 2-row barley and a head of 6-row barley is the arrangement of the kernels when the head is viewed down its axis. Brewers don’t make a big deal about 2-row versus 6-row barley based on the appearance of the barley head, however. The significant differences are found upon closer examination.

In general, 6-row malted barley has more protein and enzyme content than 2-row malted barley, is thinner than two-row malt and contains less carbohydrate. There are also flavor differences between 2-row and 6-row and it seems that most brewers feel 2-row malt produces a fuller, maltier flavor and 6-row malt produces a grainier flavor in the finished beer.

The interesting fact about 6-row barley is that it is only grown in North America. Its high enzyme concentration after malting is one of the reasons cereal adjuncts like rice and corn can be used without causing problems with mash conversion. The other thing about 6-row barley is that it has become a symbol of what the European brewers don’t use. Just read the marketing materials of many imports and you will find references to the exclusive use of 2-row malted barley, implying that there is something inferior to 6-row malting barley. We don’t share that opinion since 6-row malt certainly has its place in brewing.

[srs787]

The malted grains 2-row, 6-row, distillers malt all will work fine at the proper levels. You have asked for a on-line supplier, there are many listing malted grains. I have done business with Brewhaus. They are stilling foward, meaning they can help you with more than just grains.

[rawdawg1952]

NChooch's Carolina Bourbon was the tried a true recipes that I was gonna try. He call for 6-row so i will faithfully follow his recipe for the mash. Thanks bearriver

[S-Cackalacky]

Good information in your post Bearriver. Thanks for posting it. I guess I never really understood what the difference is between 2 row and 6 row. NCHooch also recommends 2 row as a replacement for 6 row. The DP is slightly lower, but he says it will work just as well.

[rager]

something I picked up from jimbo and please correct me if im wrong. for distilling we want more beta amyalese . it has something to do with the conversion , that's why he recommend mashing at a lower temp of 142-148.

jimbo hopefully will chime in.... and if im completely wrong in my post can set me straight

[alpine]

You need both alpha and beta. They work in conjunction, but have different ideal temperatures. Alpha cuts the chains in the middle while beta works on the ends. The textbook difference between distillers and brewers malt is the diastatic power. Distiller's malt has more DP which aids in converting adjuncts like corn and unmalted wheat and rye.

[S-Cackalacky]

I think a grain malt has what you need for full conversion as long as you use enough depending on the grain bill and the DP of the malt. I think if you're using liquid enzymes, you need both alpha amylase and gluco amylase with the alpha being added at around 150 dF and the gluco added at around 140(?) dF and at a slightly lower PH. If you look at NCHooch's Carolina Bourbon recipe, it only calls for the addition of the 6 row malted barley. Beano is also mentioned in other posts in the thread, but isn't absolutely necessary. It can be added at lower temps to help break down some of the longer chain sugar molecules.

[rawdawg1952]

Great info. Much appreciated. NCHooch makes mention of using Beano in his recipe as a way of helping the conversion. I'll toss the malt at 150 and then the Beano at 140.

[rpt124]

Hi All I am a bit new at this and this week I have made my first mash. I was confused as well about malts and first had decided I was going to sprout my corn and then make my mash. After looking into some local home brew stores in my area I decided to purchase some malted Barley. So I wanted to go over how I used my malted grain and get your advice if it was a good idea or bad idea and what I did right or wrong.

So I boiled 50 Gallons of water in my pot. I took whole corn and ground it with a blender very fine like corn meal about 25 lbs and mixed it into the boiling water until all clumps were gone and not visible. I did feel some of it go to the bottom and did my best to get that mixed in as well. Then I took and let it cool to about 100 degrees and while it was still cooling poured it into my clean trash can that I was using as a fermenter. I then mixed in my 50 Lbs of sugar. Then letting it cool a bit more I mixed in my 1 Gallon of Malted Barley(I did nothing to the barley just opened the package and poured the amount in. I did not ground it or anything.) Then I went and mixed everything again. Then I cut a whole in the top of the lid for my hose and placed the other end into water. Ducktaped the hose to seal it and put the lid on. Then I duck taped the lid and covered it with a tarp and then with a wool blanket.

24 hours later I came back to stir it once more. I did not see anything going on no bubbling or anything(Again I used a mlated grain so no yeast!) I stirred it once more and then sealed it back up again. Taped the lid again and covered it all back up. It has been in there for 5 days now still warm. I have not opened it again since. I am going to open it tomorrow morning which would be the 6th day and I am hoping it is ready to run. What should I look for to know that for sure it is ready?

Thanks all, any advice would be appreciated.

[rawdawg1952]

See the tried and true recipes under the main page and check out some of the recipes such as NCHooch Carolina whiskey. Most call for boiling the corn for up to 90 minutes and only add the crushed malted barley at 150 degrees for the enzymes to break down the starches into sugar. You then have to cool down to 80, aerate thoroughly and then add yeast. Have to have the yeast. Read all the articles for novices. I am a total novice and you will find a wealth of knowledge by reading all the material for beginners.

[rpt124]

See now I am using a malted grain. That is the whole reason i'm using a malted grain so I do not have to use yeast. Well again correct me if I am wrong but through my research I thought that to be true.

[rawdawg1952]

The barley is necessary for the enzymes that convert the starches cooked out of the corn to convert to sugar. The sugar is what the yeasts eat and in the process convert the sugars to alcohol. Been brewing beer for over 30 years and yeast is always used. Making a beer wort and a liquor wash are similar in the early parts of the process. Read any of the Tried and True Recipes on the main page and they all contain yeast. You can make a pure sugar shine with nothing more than sugar, water and yeast. That mostly how rums are made except the sugar is molasses.. no barley necessary because you started with sugar. But yeast are always necessary. Just go buy some plain old Fleischmann's Actvive Dry Bread yeasts at the grocery, heat two cups water to 100 degrees with a couple tbls of sugar and add the yeast. They'll come alive and really start to multiply in 30 minutes. Toss into your corn wash and see what happens. Again, I am a pure novice but have been greatly helped by the great guys on this forum. I can't stress enough the need to read all the articles for beginners posted at the top the board index. Then look at the recipes for confirmation about what I am telling you regarding yeast. Or maybe one of the master distillers will jump in here and lay some cold hard facts on you.

[rad14701]

See now I am using a malted grain. That is the whole reason i'm using a malted grain so I do not have to use yeast. Well again correct me if I am wrong but through my research I thought that to be true.

Where on earth, aside from the Moonshiners show, did you get the idea you don't need yeast with malted grain...??? Sure, you could try to rely on wild yeast present in the air but you never know what kind you'll get, whether it will be good, or whether it will kick in before a bacterial infection...

Perhaps some serious research is in order, especially if you're starting right out with an all grain mash... Diving head first into uncharted waters can lead to a lot of unneeded bumps and bruises, or worse... Not planning for success is a recipe for failure...

This is a classic example of the blind leading the blind... Prove me wrong...!!!

[S-Cackalacky]

Well, if it doesn't smell like puke by now, throw some yeast in there and see if you can get a ferment going. To use that much ingredients without knowing what you're doing is a little disconcerting. If your malted barley wasn't ground, you probably had little or no conversion, so what you have is 50+ gallons of sugar and starch. That's a lot of failed experiment to have to flush down the shitter.

[bearriver]

If there is unconverted starch in the ferment, isn't there much higher chance of puking and scorching during the run? If so, maybe he should do an iodine test. Scorched boilers can be serious pain in the arse to get clean.

That's a lot of failed experiment to have to flush down the shitter.

Yeah it is, been there . Sent me into a fit of much needed research, and learned a rather obvious financial lesson about the size of my experimental ferments. There is usually always a bright side, even if you have squint really hard to find it.

[Prairiepiss]

If you really want to learn about malts. AG brewing for that mater. You should take the time and read through this.
http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I would suggest buying the latest version of his book. Yes its about beer brewing. But the info is laid out nicely. And has a lot of great info. That also pertains to AG mashing for distilling. The only real difference is. We use mostly what they would call adjuncts. Unmalted grains.

There is a whole section on different malts. And how they are made. Or what they are. Along with enzymes and what they are and do.

Granted the section on hops won't be if much help. All the rest of it will be.

And without yeast. You don't have fermentation. Where those yeasts come from? Well that's up to you. Whether it comes from the store. Or its wild yeast that was introduced VIA the grains used or the environment around the mash area. It is still yeast. You take a chance using wild yeast. You never know what yeast it actually is. Don't know how well it will work. Or if it will work at all? Yeast collected inside your house or other buildings. Can be worse then outside. The air quality and other organisms floating around inside buildings. Are not always the best. Many times not good at all. Unless it is a known fermenting site. Like an established vineyard or brewery. Where a certain yeast that has been used for a long time. Has taken hold of the environment. And is the dominant yeast.

Did I say it takes yeast to ferment sugar to alcohol? And without it. You don't have fermentation?

A malted grain may or maynot have wild yeast on it? And it may or maynot be a good yeast to rely on.

But also think about this. Mashing temps are usually high enough to kill off most all yeast strains. So after mashing and killing the yeast. More them likely you are collecting would yeast from the environment around the mashing area.

Did I say you have to have yeast to ferment?

[RevSpaminator]

You've committed to a 50 gal pot to boil water in? And you don't know that you have to add yeast to your wash?

Something don't add up here.

[Prairiepiss]

Hi All I am a bit new at this and this week I have made my first mash. I was confused as well about malts and first had decided I was going to sprout my corn and then make my mash. After looking into some local home brew stores in my area I decided to purchase some malted Barley. So I wanted to go over how I used my malted grain and get your advice if it was a good idea or bad idea and what I did right or wrong.

So I boiled 50 Gallons of water in my pot. I took whole corn and ground it with a blender very fine like corn meal about 25 lbs and mixed it into the boiling water until all clumps were gone and not visible. I did feel some of it go to the bottom and did my best to get that mixed in as well. Then I took and let it cool to about 100 degrees and while it was still cooling poured it into my clean trash can that I was using as a fermenter. I then mixed in my 50 Lbs of sugar. Then letting it cool a bit more I mixed in my 1 Gallon of Malted Barley(I did nothing to the barley just opened the package and poured the amount in. I did not ground it or anything.) Then I went and mixed everything again. Then I cut a whole in the top of the lid for my hose and placed the other end into water. Ducktaped the hose to seal it and put the lid on. Then I duck taped the lid and covered it with a tarp and then with a wool blanket.

24 hours later I came back to stir it once more. I did not see anything going on no bubbling or anything(Again I used a mlated grain so no yeast!) I stirred it once more and then sealed it back up again. Taped the lid again and covered it all back up. It has been in there for 5 days now still warm. I have not opened it again since. I am going to open it tomorrow morning which would be the 6th day and I am hoping it is ready to run. What should I look for to know that for sure it is ready?

Thanks all, any advice would be appreciated.

In all actuality this is not a mash. It's a sugarhead wash. That reminds me of the crap recipes given on the moonshiners show and bad YouTube videos.

Since you didn't mill the malted barley. It added very little to the recipe. And what it will add. Is more then likely the undesirable traits. That many don't want. The hulls will add more then the actual barley grain. And the husks don't add the good part. Many say it adds off flavors. Since the barley was not milled. The enzymes and starches within the grain. Won't be readily available to do anything for you. So that means the starches from the corn won't be converted to sugars. And the starches in the barley won't be extracted and converted.

The malted barley may have had wild yeast on it. But obviously it didn't work out for you.

I would add some yeast. And get this ferment going. Before you loose it to a bad infection. And waist a bunch of ingredients.

After you get this out of the way. I would then find the UJSSM recipe in the tried and true recipe section. Use it for a bit. Learn from it. Once you have learned from it and learned to drive your still. Then find a good AG recipe here on HD. And follow it. And forget about whatever you learned from what ever site you learned that recipe from. And bad information.