Baking Soda

[lampshade]

Does it make sense to add baking soda (or whatever) to the feints jar to increase alcohol collection when the feints are run?

[winestill]

Is it ok to use potassium carbonate (K2CO3) instead of sodium carbonate?
We dont have sodium carbonate where i live, but we have sodium bicarbonate.
The potassium cost the same as bicarbonate.

[Roundyround]

When adding my sodium carbonate to low wines, I find it doesn't go into solution very well. It sinks to the bottom of the carboy and forms a mass that will eventually dissolve if I swill the carboy a few times a day for a day or two. My last addition was 4 tbsp of sodium carbonate to about 3 gallons of 138 proof mixed fients for a run over the holidays. Do I need to dilute my feints down before the additions instead when I put it in the boiler down to about 30%?

[Dnderhead]

when you use baking soda or other you are neutralizing the acids this in turn makes things like ethyl acetate turn back into ethanol and acidic acid,so how much you use depends on how much acid is in your product.
you could try mixing the base (baking soda etc.)in warm water first,then add to product.

[Roundyround]

Thanks for the suggestion of premixing... just like makin' gravy. Dump flour all at once ya git lumps, make a slurry for nice n smooth. The amount of about a tsp per quart was taken from the posts earlier in this thread. Is there a different way I should be determining how much to add?

[Fritz The Cat]

I'm getting ready to use some sodium carbonate in my next fients run. Boiler charge will be about 6 gallons. Should I add it to the boiler along with the charge or should I add it to the wash and let it sit awhile?

Last, but not least, how much should I add?

Thanks

[rad14701]

I'm getting ready to use some sodium carbonate in my next fients run. Boiler charge will be about 6 gallons. Should I add it to the boiler along with the charge or should I add it to the wash and let it sit awhile?

Last, but not least, how much should I add?

Thanks

You should add it and let it sit for several days to two weeks... Add ~1 teaspoon per liter... Don't get crazy with it...

[Fritz The Cat]

I've read this about Sodium Bi-Caronate but I'm using Sodium Carbonate (Food Grade Soda Ash). Is it the same?

Thanks

[NissedasaPewt]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in here before but as a marine fish keeper I buy Sodium Bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and then spread it over a baking tray and bake in the oven at 400F/200C for an hour. This drives off the excess water and carbon dioxide and converts the Sodium Bicarbonate into the higher Ph (Na2CO3) Sodium Carbonate (washing soda) which I then use in my tank to maintain the pH.

I would think that this may be a useful method for those that cannot find Sodium Carbonate or who have Sodium Bicarbonate (and residual heat from Sunday lunch oven)

[dan1587wrx]

I am confused. I've read through the entire thread and done some other research and my question is can I add my sodium carbonate right before running my low wines in reflux to get a neutral spirit?

Thanks,
Dan

[Prairiepiss]

I am confused. I've read through the entire thread and done some other research and my question is can I add my sodium carbonate right before running my low wines in reflux to get a neutral spirit?

Thanks,
Dan

Your answer is on the page before this one. Second post from the bottom. Actually its answered twice by the same person on that page alone.

And it really has nothing to do with getting a neutral spirit. That comes from the recipe you use and how you distill it. This is more about getting a slightly more useable hearts out of the low wines.

[dan1587wrx]

Thanks for the reply I realize it has nothing to do with the neutral. I will add it and let it sit for several days.

[Edailey002]

I just wanted to throw this in here.
What I have read ( the whole thread ) is that the wash should be 4-5 ph when ready to make the first run.
Add 1 teaspoon per L/Qt of low wines NOT to the wash.
Do not add the carb to the low wines if it is less than a Ph of 7 and more than 40%abv for best result.
Then let the low wines rest for more or less a week before the second run.
At that point carbon filtering is not necessary to have a nice clean smooth neutral.
Also, adding salt to increase the boiling point of the water isn't necassary if carb is used.
I put this in here for two reasons, one to condense what I have read and two I have seen questions asked that were answered two or three posts earlier. Now it is all answered in one post and mods, if I miss represented anything please adjust it for me. Thanks and hope this reduces the same question being asked a dozen times.

[frozenthunderbolt]

I just wanted to throw this in here.
What I have read ( the whole thread ) is that the wash should be 4-5 ph when ready to make the first run.
Add 1 teaspoon per L/Qt of low wines NOT to the wash.
Do not add the carb to the low wines if it is less than a Ph of 7 and more than 40%abv for best result.
Then let the low wines rest for more or less a week before the second run.
At that point carbon filtering is not necessary to have a nice clean smooth neutral.
Also, adding salt to increase the boiling point of the water isn't necassary if carb is used.
I put this in here for two reasons, one to condense what I have read and two I have seen questions asked that were answered two or three posts earlier. Now it is all answered in one post and mods, if I miss represented anything please adjust it for me. Thanks and hope this reduces the same question being asked a dozen times.

Adding salt also tends to corrode the shit out of your still, particularly internal elements.

[pounsfos]

I would'nt add salt full stop.. but your still your choice

Baking soda is great, Have used it in all ym low wines, I get way more, and so much easier to discern between fracrtions,.

[RandyMarshCT]

Do not add the carb to the low wines if it is less than a Ph of 7 and more than 40%abv for best result...

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that you only want to add bicarb if your wash is under 7 (acidic) because bicarb is a base. After adding the bicarb you want a PH of 7 or lower, NOT alkaline. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. My low wines are always acidic and I'm well under a 7 even after adding baking soda. Also, I was adding 1 tbsp per gallon of low wines... it seems I could have been using more.

[WindDawg]

OKay I just read all this and put 1 tsp per quart in my low wines and it turned Light BLUE....Is this to happen? I was a little cloudy before but not blue.

[bostash]

I have done 3 hepping table spoon during a second stirpping run and it works perfect

[rad14701]

OKay I just read all this and put 1 tsp per quart in my low wines and it turned Light BLUE....Is this to happen? I was a little cloudy before but not blue.

Did you add the baking soda right before charging the boiler or did you let it sit for 1 - 2 weeks before running...??? That blue is copper sulfates and the spirits need to be tossed... Some might suggest diluting and rerunning but I'd rather be safe than sorry... Don't use baking soda if you don't absolutely need to... Refining your recipe, fermentation, and distillation methods is a better option than using baking soda as a crutch...

[lampshade]

OKay I just read all this and put 1 tsp per quart in my low wines and it turned Light BLUE....Is this to happen? I was a little cloudy before but not blue.

Did you add the baking soda right before charging the boiler or did you let it sit for 1 - 2 weeks before running...??? That blue is copper sulfates and the spirits need to be tossed... Some might suggest diluting and rerunning but I'd rather be safe than sorry... Don't use baking soda if you don't absolutely need to... Refining your recipe, fermentation, and distillation methods is a better option than using baking soda as a crutch...

If I am reading this correctly, the low wines turned blue immediately after WinDawg added the baking soda. Here is the important fact: WInDawg did not have to distill the low wines -- after adding the baking soda -- to make them turn blue; he only had to add the baking soda. So how did adding the baking soda introduce copper sulfates?

My guess is that the low wines were produced from a wash that was fermented with too much nutrients added (nitrogen) or maybe turbo yeast was used to ferment the wash. Turbo yeast has a lot of nutrients added. Then all it took to make the low wines blue was to add alkaline (baking soda). Dnderhead once wrote "alkaline wash+excess nitrogen= ammonia +copper=blue". In the Wikipedia entry for ammonia, it states that ammonia can react with calcium (from baking soda) to produce a blue liquid.

MORAL #1: Be careful when adding nutrients or turbo yeast when fermenting, or you may produce poison.
MORAL #2: Don't assume that distillation will remove all of the excess nutrients that you added when fermenting or remove any ammonia that may be produced during fermentation. Odin broached the importance of fermentation in http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=42602.

[BoisBlancBoy]

Just read this from the parent site:

This gives us the clue that oyster shells or chalk [CaCO3] will do the same thing, and will also work to convert ethyl acetate to booze as the stuff disassociates in the same way [Ca.CO3 + 2.H.OH = H2CO3 +Ca.OH + 2OH-]. In this case it's the Ca+ ion that grabs the COOH bit of the ethyl acetate to form calcium acetate [Ca.COOH] and the hydroxyl ion grabs the C2H5 bit to form what we're after . C2H5.OH, booze. The only thing to consider is the relative solubility of baking soda compared to chalk, but those who use hard water to dilute their strippate may be on a winner!

What does that last sentence mean? I have pretty hard water, wondering if this could be to my advantage somehow?

[akcom]

Hi all, medicinal chemist here. While this is a good idea in theory, calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is practically insoluble in water so it's not really going to react the way you want it to, it will just sit at the bottom of your bucket. In addition, sodium carbonate is a much stronger base which means it will work much better regardless. A distiller would be wise to use either sodium carbonate or sodium hydroxide. Contrary to what others here have said, you do not need to let your stripped solution sit for a week. The process we are executing here to get rid of the unwanted chemicals is called "base catalyzed ester hydrolysis" and this process is MUCH more rapid at elevated temperatures (ie during your spirit run). Thus, must of the "cleaning" actually happens in the pot. If you have a reflux still, slowly heat the pot with your valve open (give it time to hydrolyze those esters) and trash anything that comes over under 78C. This is assuming your thermometer is properly placed or you have one to begin with haha

As mentioned elsewhere, cleaving these esters can lead to more ethanol (good!) but also more methanol (bad!) so be careful with your forerun. Personally, I would just

[Chroi]

Can I take a huge step back and ask a very basic question here:

If I treat my low wines, I have to run them again to reap the benefit of better compressed heads and more hearts

If I do a slow spirit run the first time and save only my feints, keeping the hearts, I continue doing single spirit runs adding previous feints to the new wash.

Either way, I'm running the feints twice.

Am I silly for not treating the feints? Or is running them slowly twice simply accomplishing the same thing?

All this is regarding a sugar wash/vodka through a pot still. I dont bother saving feints from my column.

[lampshade]

If I do a slow spirit run the first time and save only my feints, keeping the hearts, I continue doing single spirit runs adding previous feints to the new wash.

Is this what you are doing?

[Chroi]

If I do a slow spirit run the first time and save only my feints, keeping the hearts, I continue doing single spirit runs adding previous feints to the new wash.

Is this what you are doing?

Yes, for both sugar and grain washes through my pot still with thumper I'm running a single slow spirit run. The previous run's heads go in the thumper, tails in with the new mash.

I've only done 4 runs like this but it seems to produce a very nice product (I've only ever done Sweetfeed and BW's)

Edit in your diagram it appears the volume of feints is getting larger each run. It's not, which is why I thought I was doing good....turning part of gen1 feints into gen2 heats, saving gen2 feints for gen3 run etc.

Am I concentrating my feints to unhealthy levels or something?

[WindDawg]

OKay I just read all this and put 1 tsp per quart in my low wines and it turned Light BLUE....Is this to happen? I was a little cloudy before but not blue.

Yeah I do use a turbo yeast if my ferment slows or stops before it should. I ran it and all came out good so no regrets from this end. And for those that are wandering, I use a 5 gal, pot still veeeeeeeery slow.

[Rockyy]

Will the baking soda stay in the bottom of the still or will some to make it's way up and stick to the scrub pads?

[T-Pee]

If you allow the wash to settle and clear properly you won't have to concern yourself with it in the boiler.
If you do get a little in there, a proper distillation should keep it out of the column.

tp

[BoisBlancBoy]

The baking soda will dissolve in the distillation process and is used to help strip flavors to give you a cleaner product. Most of the time used to create a neutral. You won't have any problems with it getting in the scrubbies.

Yo shouldn't be adding baking soda to your wash. You should be adding it to your low wines.

[Axdelmar]

Ok Experts...Read all this twice...totally baffled now. UJSM was my base. My well water is coming out at 3.1 ph. 1st ferment ran 4 days...somewhat slow to take off(expected). Test backset in ferment tank with 3 gals of well water...3.6ph. Before 2nd ferment I added 1 teaspoon of baking soda to 1 gal of water and tested out at 7 something. Added that to my 2nd mash back set + 3 gals of water, tested out at about 5.5ph. Added 8 lb's of sugar and another gal of water, plus a pound of new corn. My ferment went nuts! Looked like a volcano in there! Yeast seemed to be having an ORGY!
Question: Have I now striped my mash of all it's corn taste? I've yet to run a spirit run. Color seems fine in my stainless fermenter. I use a pot still.
Suggestions?