Polishing 92% shine

[muha]

Hi.
I've produced a few litres of 92% moonshine using a sugar and nutrient wash. I would like to try removing the 'moonshine edge' from the spirit and read that it can be done using activated charcoal.
However the homedistiller wiki states that you need to water down to below 50% before using charcoal due to interactions between the strong alcohol and the charcoal.
I would prefer not to have to dilute my moonshine, so does anyone know any way to polish very high proof spirits without having to dilute? Different molecular sieves?
Thanks
Muha

[Bigbob]

Your going to have to dilute your shine to drink it. 92% is dangerous to drink without diluting. Has it been aired out and did you make proper cuts?

[LWTCS]

What Bob said.

Airing can take the edge off but your likely to loose a bit of abv too.

[muha]

I don't intend to drink it undiluted, but I do prefer to keep it as high abv as possible (i.e. wound cleaning, storage space, bragging rights, adding to drinks without watering them down).
It has not been aired out, but I did make proper cuts, only collecting between 78.5 and 80.5 degrees Celsius or so (can't remember exact temps).
How long should I air it to get a good tradeoff between a more neutral spirit and keeping the abv high?
Thanks

[T-Pee]

...only collecting between 78.5 and 80.5 degrees Celsius or so (can't remember exact temps).

Another one using temperature as an indicator. You're missing out on a lot of good stuff doing it that way. Put heat to the boiler that will run it at a rate that produces a pencil lead stream and throw the thermometer away assuming you're using a pot still.

tp

[Swedish Pride]

cant hit them number with a pot though.
time for show and tell muha, what equipment do you got?

[muha]

Yup, you are correct. I am using a reflux still, with a column packed with stainless steel wool, and a few water pipes passing through near the top of the column for the reflux, and a big leibig condenser after that. The amount of reflux is controlled via my somewhat dodgy electric heater and the voltage to the pump I'm using for the cooling. I think I need to modify/get a new heater as it likes to heat to a certain temperature by turning on and off periodically. I know this is rubbish.
Can you please explain what is wrong with using a thermometer to make the cuts?
Seems to me that the temperature varies based on the ethanol to water ratio, so collecting at just over the boiling point of ethanol would allow me to get the highest abv and cleanest product.
Of course it would be different if I wanted to make a flavoured spirit.

[BayouShine]

Can you please explain what is wrong with using a thermometer to make the cuts?

Can you taste those numbers?

[LWTCS]

Can you please explain what is wrong with using a thermometer to make the cuts?

Can you taste those numbers?

+1
It is entirely possible to drag tails into 90% likker.

[Swedish Pride]

What these gents are eluding to is that you make your cuts on taste no on abv or temp.
Read through crankys spoon feeding post to get a good understanding of theory and practice in this art.

Welcome to the rabbit hole

[rad14701]

I have to agree that you need to slow down and do some research... You're just making multiple novice mistakes and making uninformed assumptions that you know what you're doing when, in fact, you don't... Take the advice and do what we consider mandatory research and you'll find out what and why you are doing things wrong... Improving your practices, and your understanding of what is going on, will go a long ways in your producing better spirits... The information is here so there is no excuse to not be up to speed before firing up your still again... Doing so will be beneficial to all...

As for the bragging rights comment, the fewer people who know what you're doing the better... Braggers end up getting busted more times than not... And if you don't have spirits worth bragging about . . . .

[sungazer]

An even more "work involved" way is to water it down and re run it. I to like to store a certain amount of 90% + as you say it saves on space and can be on hand to be watered down to whatever ABV you wish when you need it. Some drinks are 35% others 50%. It reduces the risk of any infections also. As for the temperature guide to make cuts between those temps you cant go far wrong. The commercial distillery's certainly don't have the master distiller sitting there tasting every 10 min as the run progresses. The trade off might be that you get some flavors you went expecting.

[Secale]

Different molecular sieves?

Are you trying to get 100% dry alcohol by removing all the water?

I know they use molecular sieve type 3A for removing water from stuff like alcohol.

https://www.bio.umass.edu/microscopy/mol_sieves.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://homedistiller.org/distill/polish/dry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Hope this helps.

[Yummyrum]

92 % ABV will have a lot of flavours ....ain't no doubt about that . Carbon filtering will help but as you already know , its only effective at around 40-50% ABV ....if you don't want to dilute then what then

So....what options are there ?....and these answers are based on what I do as I used to carbon filter and now don't .

Clean wash .....I used to use turbo yeast with 8 kg of sugar in a 23 liter wash, it stunk and produced huge amounts of bad tasting by-products
I now use bakers yeast with 4 kg of sugar in a 23 liter wash , ( tomato paste , wine nutrient , weetbix all bran what ever nutrient you choose ...there are heaps of recipe's to choose from )

Strip the wash .....I used to do a single pass in the re-flux still but that limits the max ABV that the still can produce as the lower you start , the lower you end .
I now strip my washes and if necessary , dilute to 30-40 % ABV then run it through the re-flux still. (Dilution is necessary as it does a two-fold thing ,first it helps with the purifying and secondly it it is a safely issue .)

Cuts .....I used to dump the first 50-100ml then collect all the rest in a demijon then when I saw the thermometer rising , I would stop .( I was a greedy bastard when I started , I couldn't see why I should waste anything )
Now I run into 400 ml jars . I put about 200mls into the first 4-5 jars .that gets me well into hearts . Then I collect a jar at a time , water it down in a teaspoon , taste it and if its pure I keep it , if it tastes rank , I know tails are on the way and thats it . .....end of run .....that jar is dumped ....its as simple as that ...if it tastes good keep it if it tastes crap , that's the end of the run .

Better still....I used to use a still that produced a mediocre ABV output ......the cuts were very wide and the hearts cut was not as wide as I would have liked
Using a better still dramatically improved the hearts cut and compressed the heads and tails .....something my basic re-flux still could not do ......now I collect more drinkable product

Carbon filtering ....I don't need to do it now

[rad14701]

Different molecular sieves?

Are you trying to get 100% dry alcohol by removing all the water?

I know they use molecular sieve type 3A for removing water from stuff like alcohol.

https://www.bio.umass.edu/microscopy/mol_sieves.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://homedistiller.org/distill/polish/dry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Hope this helps.

There is one problem with going that route... Once you've removed as much water from the ethanol as possible, getting as close to 100% as you can, once opened back up to the atmosphere the ethanol will immediately start absorbing water out of the air and would eventually end up back in the ~95% ABV range due to its hydrophilic property... Aside from lab use there is no need to remove more water than distilling to 95% accomplishes... Any alcohol over 90% ABV, for all intents and purposes, can be considered neutral spirits...

[Secale]

Your right that pure alcohol is hygroscopic (water catching) when exposed to air
and that anything over 90% is strong enough and except for chemistry uses.

Thus dry alcohol isn't worth the time or expense for most people.

[muha]

Hey
I'll definitely have a go at your method yummyrum, I'm currently using a wine yeast at 5kg of sugar per 20kg water + some yeast nutrients.
Molecular sieves look very good if they would remove flavourings as well as water (though I get the feeling they wouldn't completely remove the taste, if at all). I do agree there is little point going to 100% given the hygroscopic nature of ethanol, though I guess azeotropic is cool.
Thanks

[still_stirrin]

...I do agree there is little point going to 100% given the hygroscopic nature of ethanol, though I guess azeotropic is cool.

Well, once you "get to the dance" I hope you know "how to dance".

The first thing is to get to azeo, which can be a chore by itself. 90%ABV is pretty easy...and 92-93% takes more work. Pushing it up to 95-96%ABV can be an effort that few can endure.

Even at 185 proof, you're already working hard to get it there and the product is certainly very neutral. If you need it cleaner, simply water down and rerun again for a triple distillation.
ss

[Danespirit]

Yup, you are correct. I am using a reflux still, with a column packed with stainless steel wool,and a few water pipes passing through near the top of the column for the reflux, and a big leibig condenser after that. The amount of reflux is controlled via my somewhat dodgy electric heater and the voltage to the pump I'm using for the cooling. I think I need to modify/get a new heater as it likes to heat to a certain temperature by turning on and off periodically. I know this is rubbish
Can you please explain what is wrong with using a thermometer to make the cuts?
Seems to me that the temperature varies based on the ethanol to water ratio, so collecting at just over the boiling point of ethanol would allow me to get the highest abv and cleanest product.
Of course it would be different if I wanted to make a flavoured spirit.

1 : That would make your still a CM still.
2: You're right..it is rubbish..and also a possible reason for the "moonshine edge" as you describe it. Your element should deliver a stable powerinput, not cycle on and off (it would be as to distill on your electric stove).
The element cycling on and off at it's own will, means your rig will smear like hell and ruin the batch for you. What you need is a steady boil you can control.
3 : I strongly advice to read the spoonfeed link in my signature. You can only control the still by the powerinput...the powerinput of the above mentioned element (that seems to control itself).
4 : Excactly..! The temperature depends on the amount the different components of the wash are represented with. Means...more voilatile material=lower boilingpoint, more water = higher boilingpoint.

Edit: For the carbonfiltering you mentioned, again i can only repeat myself...properly distilled spirits needs NO carbonfiltering..

[Yummyrum]

Muha many of those CM stills with the through pipe cooling were made for the "pump it out fast market" .
They are designed to run with a fairly fast output rate and hence the lowish 92% ABV . .....the biggest problem is that the cooling tubes aren't able to cope with the vapor produced in the boiler ....There is too much going up that they can't produce enough reflux to get a higher ABV .

There is usually enough packing in these sort of columns to get a higher ABV its just a matter of slowing down the vapour production ...IE, reducing the boiler power so the reflux tubes can keep up with production .

If you read about how the guys get 95-96% ( I do ) , its all about running in full reflux for a while ( about 20 minuates ) until all the fores and early heads stack up in the packing ....then taking off product slooooooly

Full re-flux means no output ...you just sit there and wait . So you are at the balance point where you have as much water going through your tubes as you possibly can and the boiler power critically adjusted so that its vaporizing only as much as your pipes can reflux . All the condensed re-flux is dripping back through the packing where the purifying is happening

Now you tweak up your boiler power so you are producing just a bit more vapor than the reflux pipes can condense ...some goes past now....its the foreshots that have been building up in the packing . You let them out but only as a drip ....this will maintain the stacking up in the column and as the foreshots slowly exit , the heads will stack up .The majority of the vapour is still condensing as re-flux and falling back through the packing ...that's how these stills work

If you were to crank up the power too much , you will loose the stacking in the packing and your ABV will drop down ....not enough reflux to allow proper purification

Driving a reflux still is all about balancing power and take off to keep up the high ABV ....and a high ABV means better separation ( so long as you do cuts )

Edit: Sorry if I'm telling you how to suck eggs , .....but it might help the next guy

[LWTCS]

Muha many of those CM stills with the through pipe cooling were made for the "pump it out fast market" .
They are designed to run with a fairly fast output rate and hence the lowish 92% ABV . .....the biggest problem is that the cooling tubes aren't able to cope with the vapor produced in the boiler ....There is too much going up that they can't produce enough reflux to get a higher ABV .

There is usually enough packing in these sort of columns to get a higher ABV its just a matter of slowing down the vapour production ...IE, reducing the boiler power so the reflux tubes can keep up with production .

If you read about how the guys get 95-96% ( I do ) , its all about running in full reflux for a while ( about 20 minuates ) until all the fores and early heads stack up in the packing ....then taking off product slooooooly

Full re-flux means no output ...you just sit there and wait . So you are at the balance point where you have as much water going through your tubes as you possibly can and the boiler power critically adjusted so that its vaporizing only as much as your pipes can reflux . All the condensed re-flux is dripping back through the packing where the purifying is happening

Now you tweak up your boiler power so you are producing just a bit more vapor than the reflux pipes can condense ...some goes past now....its the foreshots that have been building up in the packing . You let them out but only as a drip ....this will maintain the stacking up in the column and as the foreshots slowly exit , the heads will stack up .The majority of the vapour is still condensing as re-flux and falling back through the packing ...that's how these stills work

If you were to crank up the power too much , you will loose the stacking in the packing and your ABV will drop down ....not enough reflux to allow proper purification

Driving a reflux still is all about balancing power and take off to keep up the high ABV ....and a high ABV means better separation ( so long as you do cuts )

Edit: Sorry if I'm telling you how to suck eggs , .....but it might help the next guy

Just to also add, that every so often we would get questions from guys running Boks that would have trouble achieving azeo even though they had their equipment specs dialed in based off of the many posts here.

But they were essentially running too slow,,,,, assuming that running slower would help create better separation.
Perhaps a good general rule for a pot still? But with a reflux column more vapor equals more reflux. And more reflux equals more purity. But you have to have a reflux condenser that has the knock down power to cope with the extra vapor..........

[shadylane]

The best way to polish 92% shine, that has an off taste.
Dilute it to 30% and rerun it.

[bitter]

The best way to polish 92% shine, that has an off taste.
Dilute it to 30% and rerun it.

+shadylane!!!!
This is the best way.

B

[LWTCS]

The best way to polish 92% shine, that has an off taste.
Dilute it to 30% and rerun it.

+shadylane!!!!
This is the best way.

B

+1
They don't call it distillation for nuthin.

[MDH]

Completely disagree. If you want a neutral spirit which tastes like nothing, you'll want to use carbon filtering. Even if you distill to 92%+, you'll still have traces of flavor that are identifiable.

The best way to filter out remaining flavors is to chill the spirit to a few degrees above freezing, proof it down to around 48-52%, and slowly carbon filter through a tall stainless / borosilicate tube and through a form of filter paper such as cellulose sheet, or even coffee filter.

[der wo]

I think, both is possible.
If you dilute the 92%+ with pure water, you will also dilute the impurities. And after distilling it up to 92%+ again, it will have much less or perhaps no taste.

But yes, for a few things I like carbon filtering too.

[shadylane]

Completely disagree. If you want a neutral spirit which tastes like nothing, you'll want to use carbon filtering. Even if you distill to 92%+, you'll still have traces of flavor that are identifiable.

The best way to filter out remaining flavors is to chill the spirit to a few degrees above freezing, proof it down to around 48-52%, and slowly carbon filter through a tall stainless / borosilicate tube and through a form of filter paper such as cellulose sheet, or even coffee filter.

Your right, that would be the best way to Polish 92%

[Yummyrum]

I agree with Shady , 92% on a single run isn't going to be pure at all. That's why I emphasis clean wash and good cuts to begin with.....to quote Crow " you can't polish a turd" ...however I think this is gold advise

I think, both is possible.
If you dilute the 92%+ with pure water, you will also dilute the impurities. And after distilling it up to 92%+ again, it will have much less or perhaps no taste.

But yes, for a few things I like carbon filtering too.

LOL best of both worlds for sure der wo ...good stuff

water down the 92% to 45% , carbon filter then re-distill back up to 92%.....LOL maybe might get 93% or more second run . that will give you polished high ABV

Incidentally I polished a few 75% ABV turdbo's .......back in the day .....well I thought they tasted better then