FANCY vs BLACKSTRAP: a side-by-side experiment

[katzgejm]

thought i'd see the difference between the two molasses by fermenting them side-by-side given the same conditions

here's the recipe for each:
40L hot water
10kg golden yellow sugar
5kg molasses
25g lalvin D80 yeast + 25g goferm in 250ml water as starter.

for each batch, i dissolved the sugar and molasses in about 20L very hot water, then put that into a 54L fermenter and topped it up so the total volume of wash is 50L. SG for both batches started at 1.100.

the blackstrap wash hit the ground running and began fermenting vigorously after 24hrs.
the fancy batch was bubbling steadily but at about half the pace after 24hrs.

after 10 days of good looking fermentation, i checked the SG. blackstrap is 1.070 and fancy is 1.090! both taste sweet. so the ferment hasn't been going nearly as well as i thought. i suspect a lack of nutrient (in particular, nitrogen as molasses is meant to have lots of nutrient for yeast), so i've added 25g of DAP per batch, as well as 3L more of water hoping to bring down the sugar concentration and make things easier on the yeast.

temp of each ferment was about 20C, so i added a heat belt around each fermenter hoping the warmth will help things along as well, though the yeast i'm using is meant for wine and supposedly works best below 28C.

that's where i'm at so far. i'll fill you in as i go along!

[DAD300]

very hot water...? could you keep your hands in it? 60C makes most people pull out.

The sugar needs a 65C for about five minutes for inversion or until you see it change color. The molasses needs longer.

Also it is very hard to get accurate readings of SG with any molasses in the mix. You probably were not at 1.10 when you started and are below 1.07 now.

Molasses usually doesn't need a lot of nutes, it is full of them.

You'd have been better off with bread yeast than D80.

Look for the tried and true rum recipes and they'll get you to an optimum molasses /sugar/water ratio. Remember that the solids make hydrometers inaccurate.

Warming the ferment would have been good with DADY or bread yeast. At 28C, should have taken three days to finish.

[3d0g]

Let the Caribbean be your guide. 20C is WAY too slow and 1.100 is WAY too high. 1.080 absolute max, and ferment with an appropriate yeast @ 30-32C. A rum ferment should be done in a couple to three days.

[katzgejm]

does golden yellow sugar actually need to be inverted? i've read both no, and less frequently, yes. most info i'm reading says molasses needn't be inverted as it's basically liquid invert sugar. water was hot from the propane heater, so probably 60C or so.

i've fermented this same wash in the past with great success, only difference being an addition of DAP and nutrient at the outset. i skipped those this time around because i wanted to see how the nutrients stacked up on their own. clearly, fancy lacks something and blackstrap needs some help too.

i do think the D80 yeast was a mistake, but it's what i had, and hey, that's what experimentation is for.

[3d0g]

Yeast are perfectly adept at tackling disaccharides so inverting sugar buys little.

[katzgejm]

25g of DAP per fermenter and a heat belt on each has the ferment humming along again. I've also added 10g to each of fermaidk in case there's a deficiency of other nutrients (vitamin b would be the main one i think)

[Brutal]

Interested to see what differences you can observe. Thanks for posting.

[katzgejm]

DAP + FermaidK + heat belt did wonders -- once the temp came up the ferment rebooted in a BIG way and the airlocks were moving super quick. it's been 4 days since that addition and neither is fermented out.

1.025 SG BLACKSTRAP and very deep, dark molasses flavour
1.040 SG FANCY with a much lighter colour, and light sugar flavour

as far as i can tell, the high brix to start hasn't stressed the yeast at all. both washes are actually very tasty (got me thinking about brewing up a ginger beer...) and i'm happy to end with ~14%abv. just means better yield for the same effort, right?

i'm thinking this will be finished fermenting in another 2-3 days, then cold crash to clarify, then into the still it goes for a double distillation.

[Drunken Unicorn]

Katzgejm,

I'm very interested to see what flavors the D80 gives you. I've been playing with Blackstrap VS. Baking molasses for the past 2 years. Fancy molasses does tend to ferment a little slower. Ferm-K used to be added to all my washes, but I've sensed moved away from that.

In the final product, I find that blackstrap tends to yield a more potent flavor, but is a little harder to make good cuts.

To answer your question " just means better yield for the same effort, right?"...I'd say no. The yeast will throw off different flavors and in different concentrations. I have moved away from adding any sugar to my rum washes because I want the flavor to be as strong as possible. Also, high gravity can slow down the fermentation if not make if fall short. As the alcohol content raises, it can hinder how well/fast the yeast work. I usually stay around 1.07 SG to start.

Cheers,

Unicorn

[katzgejm]

STILL fermenting away after over three weeks of fermentation!
Blackstrap SG = 1.010
Fancy SG = 1.016

Both still smell clean, taste nice. No obvious signs of struggling yeast. Just a lot of sugar to get through!

[katzgejm]

stripping the blackstrap wash today.

SG = 1.010. abv 10%? has sat in a cold room (2*C) for 3 weeks, clearing.
siphoned into still, 25L charge.
still set up is stainless steel with an 85cm column. no packing, no reflux (ie cooling at head).
discarded 1st 100ml as foreshots.
collecting everything else fast and hot. temp reads 88*C at top of column. rate of collection is approx 100ml/3minutes @65%abv.

about 2L into collection and hearts are obvious. smooth, rich flavour. not necessarily very molasses-like, but lots of buttery, caramel, dark sugar flavours. fusels are there too. hope to clean those up on the spirit run.

[MrBee]

Katzgejm,

I'm very interested to see what flavors the D80 gives you. I've been playing with Blackstrap VS. Baking molasses for the past 2 years. Fancy molasses does tend to ferment a little slower. Ferm-K used to be added to all my washes, but I've sensed moved away from that.

In the final product, I find that blackstrap tends to yield a more potent flavor, but is a little harder to make good cuts.

To answer your question " just means better yield for the same effort, right?"...I'd say no. The yeast will throw off different flavors and in different concentrations. I have moved away from adding any sugar to my rum washes because I want the flavor to be as strong as possible. Also, high gravity can slow down the fermentation if not make if fall short. As the alcohol content raises, it can hinder how well/fast the yeast work. I usually stay around 1.07 SG to start.

Cheers,

Unicorn

D U,
How are your washes without using sugar ?
How are the end flavor's ?
I have lately been thinking of doing everything the same EXCEPT leaving out the sugar.
I am using 3qrt Supreme Baking Molasses and 3.5 - 4 lb brown sugar per 5 gal batch, with 1.5 gallon Dunder as part of the 5 gallons.
I have a heavy full flavored Rum if I just do a single run through my pot still. For a liter flavor I would run a second time. I dont use the thumper on these rums.

[katzgejm]

CONCLUSION

fancy molasses
50L (10kg golden sugar, 5kg fancy molasses)
OSG 1.090 -> FSG 1.005
stripping run yielded 11L @ 48%abv
spirit run yielded 4L @ 67%abv.

blackstrap molasses
50L (10kg golden sugar, 5kg blackstrap molasses)
OSG 1.100 -> FSG 1.012
stripping run yielded 13L @45%abv
spirit run yielded 4.4L @67%abv


fancy molasses wins for flavour. much smoother, sweeter, caramel-y, and more pleasant all around. a nice sugar cane, brulee sort of aftertaste, very clean all around.
blackstrap finished more flavourful, but with deeper, burnt and almost bitter notes. not bad (i like it ok and think it will mix excellently with cola), but not everybody's tipple.

i find it odd that the blackstrap should have less fermentable sugar, yet yielded slightly more alcohol than the fancy. though this could be due to inconsistencies in still temp and collection rates (i tried to keep everything exactly the same, but i'm working with a pot still and a turkey fryer!)

as for OSG of the wash, i think i'll aim for more like 1.090 in the future. i've had great success fermenting these washes out to completion, and the yield is greater and tastier in my estimation.

yeast: wish i could had more to offer here. neither wash tastes radically different from past recipes. i've usually used 1118. i might dabble with more aromatic white wine yeasts in the future, and i've got to give bread yeast a shot too.

hope somebody finds this helpful!

[MichiganCornhusker]

Nice thread, thank you for following through with this.
I made a lot of rum last year from "supreme" baking molasses, using panela for added sugars. I think it turned out great, I really like the flavors that came over.
I now have 5 gallons of blackstrap to play with, so I will be interested to see if my results will mimic yours, I expect they will.
I have read before that the blackstrap has a more rugged, shall we say, flavor character. I've also read that the blackstrap will mellow out and become more balanced with much aging.
Thanks again for posting.

[shadylane]

Thanks for posting the experiment and especially the follow up.
Just a thought,
I'd like to see a side-by-side experiment using a yeast bomb, 30C temps and a SG of 1.08.

[nerdybrewer]

I experimented with several variants of rum recipe.
Yes I used cane sugar and molasses both fancy and blackstrap.
I used Mexican raw sugar and molasses and other variations.

What I have come to as my own tried and true is feed store molasses that is pure without preservatives and my own saved rum dunder.
I use as much water as it takes to thin it out "enough" and then when it's about 90F I pitch a cup of activated bread yeast.
I get a geyser of CO2 after about half an hour that doesn't relent for 24 to 48 hours.
I also pitch in a handful of crushed oyster shells at the beginning since rum wash will need it.
Keep it as near 85F for a few days and then let her settle, after a while do a 1.5 run - if you like strong rum flavor as I do.

Last year I put 8 gallons of that in a once used whiskey barrel.
Unfortunately it's almost gone, but wow was it good!!

[katzgejm]

I also pitch in a handful of crushed oyster shells at the beginning since rum wash will need it.

this is to raise the ph, right? does this help to reduce off-flavours, or yield more alcohol? i haven't had any problem with the latter, and i don't think the former either (though maybe i'm missing something)

[shadylane]

Just my opinion.
Rum ferments are done at tropical temps with molasses or sugar cane juice.
Both have enough nutrients for yeast.
If your adding white sugar.
A yeast bomb + pH control, will make the yeast piss less off-flavors, and yield more alcohol

[nerdybrewer]

I also pitch in a handful of crushed oyster shells at the beginning since rum wash will need it.

this is to raise the ph, right? does this help to reduce off-flavours, or yield more alcohol? i haven't had any problem with the latter, and i don't think the former either (though maybe i'm missing something)

The great thing about oyster shells is that the wash will absorb only what it needs of it to keep the ph in the good range.
I'm a believer.

[Coug95man2]

I also pitch in a handful of crushed oyster shells at the beginning since rum wash will need it.

this is to raise the ph, right? does this help to reduce off-flavours, or yield more alcohol? i haven't had any problem with the latter, and i don't think the former either (though maybe i'm missing something)

The great thing about oyster shells is that the wash will absorb only what it needs of it to keep the ph in the good range.
I'm a believer.

So without doing too much research but following this specific thread, can you re-use the oyster shells? I've never them so I've never really thought about it. I'm intrigued!

[rad14701]

So without doing too much research but following this specific thread, can you re-use the oyster shells? I've never them so I've never really thought about it. I'm intrigued!

Yes... Remove them from the trub and give them a quick boil to sterilize them so they don't carry potential nasties into your next wash...