Glass Marbles for Reflux Column Structured Packing

[drmiller100]

about 5000 watts on a 3 inch column with 56 inches of height?? That is PLENTY tall, and IMO kind of on the edge of the max watts a 3 inch marble column can handle. Could you hear the marbles rattling around inside? You might get away with 40 to 44 inches of marbles, but it certainly does NOT hurt to run the column that high.

I'd be a bit surprised you could run that many watts through the same column with pot scrubbers wihtout it flooding.

[shadylane]

I can taste the scoria.

Really! ,that has some implications, I have never come across that. Do you think is is dust from the scoria or something on them dissolving? ,what does it taste like?

Pop a piece of scoria in your mouth and that's what I taste.
It's not that strong, but it's in the background. Running more power makes the taste more pronounced.
I suspect vapor is carrying the scoria dust past the reflux condenser on my CM still and letting it contaminate the distillate.

[Monkeyman88]

about 5000 watts on a 3 inch column with 56 inches of height?? That is PLENTY tall, and IMO kind of on the edge of the max watts a 3 inch marble column can handle. Could you hear the marbles rattling around inside? You might get away with 40 to 44 inches of marbles, but it certainly does NOT hurt to run the column that high.

I'd be a bit surprised you could run that many watts through the same column with pot scrubbers wihtout it flooding.

I can run 4000w in a 2" column packed with scrubbers without getting any flooding.

[thecroweater]

I wasn't doubting you shady just wondering what could cause it. Yeah I think what ever packing is used needs to be washed, I even boil scrubbers after getting an oily taste once. I also had fines giving me issues with coke so boiled the hell out of them and changing the water, all good now

[joeymac]

I can run 4000w in a 2" column packed with scrubbers without getting any flooding.

How tight is the packing?
Well insulated column?

[rad14701]

I can run 4000w in a 2" column packed with scrubbers without getting any flooding.

How tight is the packing?
Well insulated column?

I'm curious as well... Are you able to pull 95% neutral spirits off with 4000W into a 2" column...??? And are you pushing the whole 4000W or throttling it back with a controller...??? Most here can barely run 1200W - 2400W into a 2" column...

[Monkeyman88]

I can run 4000w in a 2" column packed with scrubbers without getting any flooding.

How tight is the packing?
Well insulated column?

I'm curious as well... Are you able to pull 95% neutral spirits off with 4000W into a 2" column...??? And are you pushing the whole 4000W or throttling it back with a controller...??? Most here can barely run 1200W - 2400W into a 2" column...

Pretty tight. Packed in using a broom stick to get it nice and snug.
.sorry after recalculating it's more like 3500w. I pull off at 93% at about 2-2.5L per hour.
I have already uploaded videos to other threads showing this.

[spiff]

I like what I'm reading about the stability that marbles give. I might give this a shot since I'm having stability issues with my output.

I also see people talking about etching their marbles.. I lost my marbles that I had (pun intended) but I still have a huge bag of Pachinko balls.. anybody ever use them? They sound superior...they're smaller and are already etched across the whole sphere. They're stainless steel, so not cheap.. but probably better than manually etching a bag of marbles.

I might try them in lieu of rings the next time I think about using rings again.

[rad14701]

I like what I'm reading about the stability that marbles give. I might give this a shot since I'm having stability issues with my output.

I also see people talking about etching their marbles.. I lost my marbles that I had (pun intended) but I still have a huge bag of Pachinko balls.. anybody ever use them? They sound superior...they're smaller and are already etched across the whole sphere. They're stainless steel, so not cheap.. but probably better than manually etching a bag of marbles.

I might try them in lieu of rings the next time I think about using rings again.

Etching would be optional... I have enough to spare for an etching experiment but haven't bothered trying yet... I've had good enough luck without... I would like to try smaller marbles than the standard 5/8" I'm currently running, however...

[spiff]

Pachinko balls are a standard 11mm I believe.. a bit smaller than that.. and are usually pre-etched...

[rad14701]

Pachinko balls are a standard 11mm I believe.. a bit smaller than that.. and are usually pre-etched...

I'd think they'd be substantially heavier than glass and the weight does add up quick in a column... I'd suggest trying less expensive and lighter glass marbles first and then decide on whether they might be an option later on... Might also have issues with thermal mass transfer compared to glass marbles or lava rock as well...

[spiff]

That makes sense. But with my measley 2 in column, not too worried about weight. Plus, I have Pachinko balls already.. I don't have marbles. I might have to give them a shot.

[rad14701]

Go for it...!!!

[cob]

That makes sense. But with my measley 2 in column, not too worried about weight. Plus, I have Pachinko balls already.. I don't have marbles. I might have to give them a shot.

pachinko balls are chrome steel not stainless steel. marbles are cheap.

[rad14701]

That makes sense. But with my measley 2 in column, not too worried about weight. Plus, I have Pachinko balls already.. I don't have marbles. I might have to give them a shot.

pachinko balls are chrome steel not stainless steel. marbles are cheap.

If that's the case, they are not acceptable for use in a still...

[Hound Dog]

I have run lava rock for quite a while and have been impressed with it. I tried marbles for a few runs and found them to be an equal. They also have the advantage of not soaking up alcohol or nasty tails being glass. I will continue with them for further evaluation. I appreciate Rad bringing these to the forefront. They faded out as a packing quite a while back.

[spiff]

oh wow.. didn't know that about them being chrome steel. Thanks!

[bluefish_dist]

You can also buy lab grade marbles if you want to make sure they don't have any contaminants like lead or arsenic.

I am going to be building a 6" column and will be using marbles.

[rad14701]

You can also buy lab grade marbles if you want to make sure they don't have any contaminants like lead or arsenic.

I am going to be building a 6" column and will be using marbles.

What size boiler are you planning on mounting a 6" column on top of...???

[bluefish_dist]

100 gallon. It has a 4" on it now. Should have our co this week and will be starting production.

[yakattack]

100 gallons is beyond hobby size.

Are you a legal distiller? If so we have a whole section dedicates to that. Otherwise please don't bring that here. 100 gallons is a lot of boiler space and there's no way to justify that it's just for personal use.

The rules we live by are at the top.of the page. Please give them a read.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090

Edited to say - if you are a legal distiller put something in either the post so members are aware of it or in your signature. Otherwise you just look like.your trying to go against the forums rules.

Yak

[bluefish_dist]

Sorry, yes we have a dsp. My point was that there are lab grade marbles. I personally would not use toy grade marbles without verifying what they were made from by testing. I have had bad experiences from China with lead in paint that was certified lead free but contained 4000ppm when tested.

[still_stirrin]

.... I personally would not use toy grade marbles without verifying what they were made from by testing...

Well, I thought that I'd "lost my marbles" but I "found" them at Hobby Lobby. They're clear "decorator" marbles (12mm diameter) at $3 USD for a 2 lb. bag. And they are not painted, nor do they have internal paint mixed in like "toy" marbles.

I use about 1-1/2 of the 2 lb bags in the 2" x 39" column. If they break, they're cheap and easy to replace. Oh, and I do remove and wash them off after every run...air dry in an old "repurposed" pillow case.

But I've gotta' add: the spicy Chex mix and vodka & Sprite winter seasonal combination sounds quite sensational.
ss

[Hound Dog]

Sorry, yes we have a dsp. My point was that there are lab grade marbles. I personally would not use toy grade marbles without verifying what they were made from by testing. I have had bad experiences from China with lead in paint that was certified lead free but contained 4000ppm when tested.

No need to be sorry, some here just scan for the chance to jump on the soap box and lecture. I appreciate the input from legal guys who have more resources than many of us. I never knew of "lab grade" marbles. Where do you get them and what is the cost?

[thecroweater]

Hound Dog soap box? Reasonable question asked it wasn't in his sig at the time and it should been. 100 gallons is in excess of what is excepted to discuss by all but commercial distillers. Getting ever so tired of this faux victim crap of late.

[Bushman]

Just Googled it Blue Fish Distillery is located in Colorado. Would love to hear more information about what you are doing in the craft distilling section.

[bluefish_dist]

Here are some sources for lab grade marbles. They are not a few $$ per lb. http://www.labdepotinc.com/p-12747-colu ... s.php?c=72" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/pro ... ecCold10-6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Hound Dog]

Wow, they aren't cheap are they? What's the difference between soda lime glass and borosilicate? I wonder how the PTFE beads would do...

[engunear]

Anybody tried to measure the HETP of a marble-packed or scrubber packed column? I've got ss scrubbers in a 2m column 37mm diameter, John Stone design, with no mechanism to keep the stuff from running down the sides. Could switch to marbles, or rings, or something. But would like to measure performance before acting, and have been thinking how to do it. It seems if one is going to compare merits of (say) etched vs non-etched marbles, or scrubbers vs marbles, it would be good to have a way to work out if its worth the effort, and whether the change actually helped.

The HETP calculator on the parent site for scrubbers gives an 18.7 HETP, with the height for an equivalent plate at 0.11m. For marbles, HETP of 7.2 and HETP of 0.323m. So that theory says scrubbers better. But my column doesn't feel like its got 18.7 plates, somehow, which mirrors some thoughts in this thread.

Running the column recently, it occurred to me that at high reflux ratios, the head is in equilibrium and the thermometer there measures the BP of the distillate. A thermometer in the boiler pot tells you the BP of the liquid, so you can measure the increase in purity at any time of the run. Which means you can calculate the HETP.

Maybe there is a simpler way to do this, but taking the increase in purity and boiling point equations from the parent site, and a trusty Python, and a long aeroplane flight, came up with the attached graph. This graph is simply the boiling point of liquid and vapour, but separated by one, two or three increases in purity. Now you get one increase in purity from a pot still, so the blue line is a pot still. e.g. measure your HETP, take a measurement of at 97.5 degrees celsius boiling, a pot still gives a BP in the head of about 86C, with one extra plate we get 82C and two plates we are barely off the boiling point.

If one were to plot the two boiling points throughout a run, you would get a line that runs between two of these (e.g. 2.5 equivalent distillations for a line between the red and green lines), or maybe below the bottom one.

BTW, if people feel I'm off topic, I'll start a new thread. Not wishing a hijack, either hostile or friendly. This is the nearest thread I can find about people comparing packing at all. If anyone wants to run up a set of measurements of their marble packed column, I'd be interested in the results and will add to the graph. I'll run up some on my ss packed column next run, which will be a few weeks away.

[rad14701]

Anybody tried to measure the HETP of a marble-packed or scrubber packed column? I've got ss scrubbers in a 2m column 37mm diameter, John Stone design, with no mechanism to keep the stuff from running down the sides. Could switch to marbles, or rings, or something. But would like to measure performance before acting, and have been thinking how to do it. It seems if one is going to compare merits of (say) etched vs non-etched marbles, or scrubbers vs marbles, it would be good to have a way to work out if its worth the effort, and whether the change actually helped.

The HETP calculator on the parent site for scrubbers gives an 18.7 HETP, with the height for an equivalent plate at 0.11m. For marbles, HETP of 7.2 and HETP of 0.323m. So that theory says scrubbers better. But my column doesn't feel like its got 18.7 plates, somehow, which mirrors some thoughts in this thread.

Running the column recently, it occurred to me that at high reflux ratios, the head is in equilibrium and the thermometer there measures the BP of the distillate. A thermometer in the boiler pot tells you the BP of the liquid, so you can measure the increase in purity at any time of the run. Which means you can calculate the HETP.

Maybe there is a simpler way to do this, but taking the increase in purity and boiling point equations from the parent site, and a trusty Python, and a long aeroplane flight, came up with the attached graph. This graph is simply the boiling point of liquid and vapour, but separated by one, two or three increases in purity. Now you get one increase in purity from a pot still, so the blue line is a pot still. e.g. measure your HETP, take a measurement of at 97.5 degrees celsius boiling, a pot still gives a BP in the head of about 86C, with one extra plate we get 82C and two plates we are barely off the boiling point.

If one were to plot the two boiling points throughout a run, you would get a line that runs between two of these (e.g. 2.5 equivalent distillations for a line between the red and green lines), or maybe below the bottom one.

BTW, if people feel I'm off topic, I'll start a new thread. Not wishing a hijack, either hostile or friendly. This is the nearest thread I can find about people comparing packing at all. If anyone wants to run up a set of measurements of their marble packed column, I'd be interested in the results and will add to the graph. I'll run up some on my ss packed column next run, which will be a few weeks away.

It has been discussed that the numbers used in the calculator on the parent site are somewhat inaccurate, causing bias towards one material in comparison to another... All copper/stainless steel scrubber material is not created equally... There are several grades of fineness/coarseness for each and they each provide different performance criteria... Also, the numbers used for glass marbles are off based on calculations I did after seeing how well they performed compared to scrubber material...

As for determining HETP's in practical application, while it may be possible to determine performance comparisons between packing materials it may not be easy to pinpoint actual HETP's... For all intents and purposes, unless one is very sensitive to even minute impurities, 4 - 5 HETP's is all it takes to reach and maintain azeotrope with most still configurations... It takes a lot of work to squeeze out each additional HETP beyond that point... I haven't researched HETP logic in a while so I'd need to brush up on it if I was going to delve deeper into the related science...