Beano failure...

[goinbroke2]

So I did up a AG last night because I'm getting way low on stock. Moving so I've been using up and not making any for a while now, anyway, it seemed "critical" last night so I grabbed some stock and went to work.
9lb's of rye flakes
16lb's of crushed corn (not cracked corn which I asked for!)
13Gal of water

Normally always go 153 but was working on the dragster while it was heating and got to 165f before I dumped in the grain. Regardless, dumped it in and ran the SS mortar mixer for about a minute or two to get it mixed well then turned off the burner and proceeded to mix for another 5 minutes or so. Crushed 10 beano tabs (do they go bad maybe??) and mixed the powder in as well.
Wrapped in blankets and went in the house. Came out this morning (10-11hr's later) and it was still warm to the touch but looked starchy. I had the iodine but after running my finger through the grain and then mixing it again to see if perhaps the clear was hiding...nope, don't think I got much if any conversion.

Why didn't I use enzymes like I always do you ask?? because I couldn't find them, the wife moved a bunch of stuff getting ready to move and while she said she put all the distilling stuff together...obviously not...

Plan now? Wait until the local brewshop opens and go get some enzymes. I'm just hoping no bacteria set in before I can get home and add the enzymes and then add the yeast after that.
The yeast I'm using is whisky yeast with amylase enzymes in it, but the amount is only enough for getting the last bit out as opposed to converting a whole batch.

Now the question,
While I've used beano quite a bit before "helping" I've never tried beano on it's own. Has anybody got conversion with just crushed beano tabs or does everybody else like me just use them for "finishing" or "helping" whatever you're using for conversion?

[moosemilk]

Beano does not contain the enzymes required to convert starch to sugars, mainly amylase. It contains alpha galactosidase, which is more used to break down certain carbohydrates. So to answer your question, no, beano itself will not convert.

I tried this when i first started the AG journey. Took sample amounts at varying temperatures, and as well did each of those with varying amounts of beano. Then did iodine tests afterwords. Not once did i have conversion.

[goinbroke2]

Thanks for the quick reply moosemilk.
So to clarify, alpha galactosidase would be more appropriate to break down the starchy outer walls of the husk and other carbs?

Gotta stop at the store and grab some enzymes, debating whether to take off now (11:45am) and drive the 53km's home from work before it cools too much/spends too much time sitting and possibly getting infected, or, waiting until after work.

Think there would be an issue having it sit another 4-5hr's until I'm done work or should I count myself lucky if it hasn't turned already and get right home and convert it?

[frunobulax]

amyloglucosidase (Beano) will break down certain carbohydrates into simple sugars that it can be consumed by yeast, which means you'll pick up a couple extra gravity points. Instead of a FG of say, 1.010 it will go to 1.000
You can go to the store and pick up alpha amylase but the Ideal temp for it to work is 140-150 degrees so you may have to heat the whole thing back up.
Also, unfortunately, to convert that corn you'll have to do a cereal mash at 190-200 degrees which will denature your enzymes. What you will need
is the high temp enzymes, which most homebrew shops ton't carry. You can get them HERE

[goinbroke2]

Thanks for the info frunobulax, yeah well, it started as a shit show and is going to probably end in a shit show.

I have a couple options;
1) add enzymes and see if they will work at the current temp (60-80f?) I'll probably go with this as I won't take a chance at scorching and also can prove if they will work or not at lower temps
2) heat mash up while stirring to get it to 150 or so and hopefully not scorch it, really don't want to chance scorching it...this probably won't happen
3) split it in two and add water to thin it before heating but of course that will lower the potential, maybe add sugar after conversion to increase potentialCould do this but really hate using sugar now after doing AG for so long. naw, can't see this happening either...

We'll see what I feel like when I get home but I'm betting on option 1.

[Badmotivator]

Of course the enzymes will work at room temperature. Seeds don't normally need 150 F to make use of them. The higher temperatures increase the reaction rate, but not even by a factor of 10. More like 4X or 5X, which is totally unimportant. Whether your starch gets converted in 1 hour or 5 doesn't make any difference.

[moosemilk]

Of course the enzymes will work at room temperature. Seeds don't normally need 150 F to make use of them. The higher temperatures increase the reaction rate, but not even by a factor of 10. More like 4X or 5X, which is totally unimportant. Whether your starch gets converted in 1 hour or 5 doesn't make any difference.

+1

Been a lot of results from others showing there is still conversion going on at lower temps, just slower.

[goinbroke2]

Stopped at the brew place on the way home, bought 3 packs of enzymes and a pack of rum yeast with amalyse in it....because they didn't have whisky yeast...

anyhoo, poured the now full 57L keg of slop into 3 20L pails and put about 4-5 gal of water in the keg and fired up the burner. Used the drill and mortar mixer to clean everything off inside and got the water to 155. Put in one bucket of mash and stirred, brought back to 150 or so and drained 4-5L out into the empty pail. Kept stirring and draining liquid until I could get the second pail in. Did the same until I got the third pail in.
Then, put enzymes in the keg full of grain and a pack of enzymes in the pail of starchy/gooey water.
Used the drill to mix both really well then covered in blankets and that's how they're sitting now.

Obviously after conversion my SG will be low due to about 17-18 gals of water and only 25 or so lb's of grain, if it is, .........I'll......add.......sugar ....

Don't know if I'll pitch yeast tonight, probably wait until tomorrow. Of course after having all this mess going on I get a text from the realtor, I have a viewing on Sat morn at 10:00
Told her ignore the stuff bubbling upstairs in the garage, I'm making bear. (I'm not lying at this point! )

[goinbroke2]

Of course the enzymes will work at room temperature. Seeds don't normally need 150 F to make use of them. The higher temperatures increase the reaction rate, but not even by a factor of 10. More like 4X or 5X, which is totally unimportant. Whether your starch gets converted in 1 hour or 5 doesn't make any difference.

Thanks! I didn't know that, or if I did I forgot it.

Classic mistake, made it so long using the same "recipe" when something goes wrong I don't read

Go to bed tonight a little less stupid!

[yakattack]

I'd pitch yeast now if at all possible. You don't want any possible bacteria taking hold. The longer yeast are held off the more likely it is that you can get an infection that you don't want..just my nickels worth anyways.

Yak

[goinbroke2]

oops, kind of overshot it, 165f

Burner lit

[goinbroke2]

Why does it mix the pic's up? It starts your first one at the bottom....weird...

[goinbroke2]

I'd pitch yeast now if at all possible. You don't want any possible bacteria taking hold. The longer yeast are held off the more likely it is that you can get an infection that you don't want..just my nickels worth anyways.

Yak

Yes I'm aware of that and duly concerned, however right now it's still way to hot to pitch...well...it's been a few hours. But generally the blankets will keep it hot until tomorrow morning.


argg...



ok, now you got me thinking, I gotta go check it.

[yakattack]

Hadn't thought of the heat there gb2.. and you really don't want to crash cool it either... it can use all the help converting it can get.

Either way it should be ok. I would make a large starter though if nothing else. Get it going with diluted mash and then pitch the starter in the morning.

[goinbroke2]

Just checked, it's still at 125f so I pulled the blankets off and just have one sheet covering the top.

[shadylane]

Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents worth
My experiments with Beano have been a failure.
And the enzymes sold by brew shops isn't what you need.
Get some high temp alpha amylase and some gluco.
Sherman Owen at enzymash sells what you need at a reasonable price.

[goinbroke2]

Never looked up Sherman owen but I got enzymes from Ian Smiley one time and they were the same thing that was available locally so I've stuck with that ever since.

I will check that out though, never hurts to experiment. And if it works better, great!

thanks

[goinbroke2]

Just watched the video and went through the site. For $60US plus $20 in shipping (and no doubt customs/excise/etc) it would probably be $125-150 Canadian to have it shipped to me, and that would do 300lb's of grain I think it said?

Have to think about it, I normally use bread yeast cause I'm cheap. If I ever get legal of course I'll have to look at something like this. $100 US for 3000lb's of grain? for a business that's excellent pricing!

[moosemilk]

Just watched the video and went through the site. For $60US plus $20 in shipping (and no doubt customs/excise/etc) it would probably be $125-150 Canadian to have it shipped to me, and that would do 300lb's of grain I think it said?

Have to think about it, I normally use bread yeast cause I'm cheap. If I ever get legal of course I'll have to look at something like this. $100 US for 3000lb's of grain? for a business that's excellent pricing!

I got my enzymes (same thing, sebstar and sebamyl) from hamiltonhops.com It was enough to do about 1000 lbs of grain, cost me i think it was about $50 Cdn with shipping. Just checked their website, don't see them on there anymore, but they are doing some updating to the site and that could be why. Worth checking into. Store is in BC

edit* Just sent them an email asking if they still carry the sebstar and sebamyl, as I will probably need more in the next couple months (1000lbs of grain is A LOT, considering that I do use some malt as well, just not enough for full conversion due to the cost of malts for me are expensive, so I malt my own barley and use the liquid enzymes to help a little). Will report back when i hear.

[apdb]

i might pop in there in the afternoon as I'll be in the area and ask if they are still carrying it. Last time (months back) they were out but they get it from a place in Vancouver? and he had it within the week. I'll report back here if he doesn't get back to you quick enough.
Aaron

[yakattack]

Thanks guys. I was actually going to be calling them myself lol

[goinbroke2]

Yes thanks guys, I look forward to the news.

Also, checked this morning and temp was at 99-100f. checked conversion and while iodine showed clear(yellowish) I checked with the hydrometer and got just under 5% so I don't think I got complete conversion. Regardless I pitched the whisky yeast with amalyse and will check when I get home from work.

[rad14701]

Why does it mix the pic's up? It starts your first one at the bottom....weird...

Are you using the Place Inline button to place pictures at the cursor in your posts or simply attaching pictures...??? I've found that it makes a big difference...

[skow69]

checked conversion and while iodine showed clear(yellowish) I checked with the hydrometer and got just under 5% so I don't think I got complete conversion.

How are you using a hydrometer to check conversion?

[goinbroke2]

Checked with iodine and it was yellowish so I filled my hydrometer tube and dropped the hydrometer in, it showed 4-5% potential alcohol. Used it the same way I would if I would of put sugar in or whatever.

(not the spirit hydrometer obviously)

EDIT: spelling

[apdb]

Couldn't get to the shop today. Sorry fellas. SOH's list on my first day off was impressive. Will try again tomorrow.
Aaron

[skow69]

OK, so if 4.5% ABV is 1.030, then I figure your ppg at 21. Meh, coulda been worse, considering. I'd run it as is, no sugar, and chalk it up to the learning curve.

[goinbroke2]

Went out a little while ago and they are upstairs in the garage and it's quite warm, bubbling away nicely!
Both the keggle with the grain in it and the bucket with just the liquid look like a slow boil.
I'll give it 4-5 days and recheck the gravity.

On another note, went to a different brew shop and picked up more enzymes and whisky yeast and found out they sell those socks to put your grain in like a tea bag. At $1.29 or something for the large, I bought two! After walking out I wondered why I bought them as I'm thinking of building a "recirculator" type sparge rig to make a good grain bed so I can draw off just clear (ish) liquid for the still. More of an experimental thing I guess, to say I did it.

Here is what I'm going to build when I get moved;
http://www.iskiebaedistillery.com/2015/ ... m-concept/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Here's the video of it running,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMrpJ3ZZBos" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[moosemilk]

Received an email back from hamilton hops. They still carry the sebstar and sebamyl, but are out at the moment and their new order will be in shortly.

[goinbroke2]

Cool, thanks, I'll order some when available and see what the real difference is. If it is that noticeable, I'll go that way.