Help- No alcohol in my corn wash

[stevefzr]

Hi Folks,

I did a rum wash using molasses and sugar that worked out really well. It was my first ever go at fermenting, so I started small, with 800l After the resounding success, I decided to move onto bourbon using a corn mash. I followed the no cook recipe. I brought the cracked corn and water up to 93C (about 200F) for a couple of hours till it looked like porridge. I then cooled it to 65C and added 15% malted barley and 15% cracked wheat and brought it back up to 65C. I added a couple of beano tablets as well. The fermenter is insulated, so it would have sat around 65C for an hour or so and then gradually cooled over the next 12 hours to 45C. I then cooled it to 22C and added lots of yeast. I'm fermenting on the grain to give the enzymes more time to work. My fermenter has a thermostat that holds it between 20C and 22C. After a week I tested the alcohol content by taking a sample, boiling away half the liquid and topping up to the original volume with water. The SG of the pre and post boil samples were virtually identical, which suggests virtually no alcohol. The same fermenter, yeast and temperature worked really well with the rum wash, so I'm assuming that I didn't get any sugars out of the corn. I did a ph test and it seems pretty low, like around 3.5. I used litmus paper and an electronic meter, and they both came out the same. Would that stop the enzymes working? If so, can I balance the ph back to around 5 and then take it back to 65C for a couple of hours to get the starch conversion happening? As I'm going to distill the final product, I assume there's nothing wrong with using caustic soda to lift the PH?

A point to note: I used 2 row barley as the local brew shop didn't have 6 row ans said he can't get it here in Melbourne! I read that enzymes keep working at ferment temperatures, just a lot slower, so a couple of weeks at 20C while fermenting on the grain will get the conversion done. If that's true, then I can only suspect the 3.5ph is the culprit. If I do an iodine test on a corn/wheat/barley mash, should I expect any starch, even if the conversion has worked properly? A friend's a brewer, so I'll get him to do an iodine test tomorrow.

Last question: if the ph is the issue, I'm assuming that the enzymes will still be ok after a week at 20C in a ph of 3.5. If they aren't, do I just add another 10% malted barley after fixing the ph, or do I dump and start again?

Thanks,

Steve C

[jedneck]

what was your starting gravity and whatnis it now?

[bilgriss]

If your pH dropped to 3.5, you absolutely had some action. There are several possible paths that could have taken, some good some bad. But since you 'added lots of yeast', I'm thinking the most likely fallacy here is your procedure measuring or recording specific gravity. Especially if it doesn't smell bad.

If you are using a refractometer, you need to do math on the post-fermentation gravity reading.
If you measured with a hydrometer in the was with lots of grain still in suspension, it could have impacted your readings.

Jedneck's question should point in the right direction.

[rad14701]

The question we all have, apparently, is what tool are you using to determine the alcohol content...??? If you are using a Proof and Tralles hydrometer you are using the wrong tool for the job...

Also, are you serious when you state that one of your first ferments was 800 liters, or 211 gallons...??? That's a fair bit beyond hobby scale...!!! That leave us, or at least me, wondering what your real intentions are...

[Bushman]

I read that as well Rad and almost question it probably should have but I figured he had a typo and meant 80L.

[Mikey-moo]

80L is still big for a first attempt at a new recipe... well... for me it is.

[still_stirrin]

I would get your buddy who brews beer nearby to come help you with the mash and fermentation. It sounds like you're questionable with the processes.

I suspect that your corn gelatinization rest could have been longer. Did the "porridge" get pasty and sticky, or did it get watery and soupy?

And the saccrification rest (when you added the barley malt) should have been longer as well. This is when you do your iodine (starch) check. If it turns black or dark purple, there is still starch in the mash unconverted. If the iodine doesn't change color (remains amber colored), you've completed the starch to sugar conversion. And I doubt the Beano enzymes did much to help your malt convert the starches.

Finally, I haven't a clue why you pulled a sample and boiled it off, adding water back to it to check for alcohol. That is not how its done. Unless this was an attempt to measure the OG after the fact that fermentation had progressed. If you didn't measure the OG, at least check the specific gravity at its current state. What's it measure?

Instead, get a brewing hydrometer and pull 200 ml of the liquid (try to clear it as best you can) and measure the liquid's specific gravity (a ratio of the wash's density to the density of water). If you check the gravity before fermentation (OG) and the gravity after fermentation (FG), you can calculate the "potential" alcohol by this formula: %ABV = (OG - FG) x 130.

Just ask your beer brewing buddy to help you (understand how to and what you're doing). Mashing grains for beer and mashing grains for distilling use the same processes and tools. Sure, the recipes are different, but the products are too. If you can brew beer, you're half way there.
ss

[NZChris]

What was the temperature when it first started to boil? What is the boiling point of water at your elevation? Calculate your abv using the two numbers.

[stevefzr]

I'll tackle these in no specific order:
1." 800l must be a mistake". No. I wanted to make Jamaican style rum using 1 part sugar to 2 parts molasses. Sugar is cheap, but molasses is expensive. I went looking for a cheap source for 50kg of molasses and found 500kg for $150. That's not a typo either. That's 33c a kg. Well, I wasn't going to say no, but I didn't want the drums sitting in the way, so I decided to do a big run. I bought a food grade 44gal drum for $5 and my brother gave me three empty plastic drums used for transporting olives. I just filled them all with the sugar, molasses and water mix, pitched 500gm of bakers yeast into each when they hit 20C and left them for 2 weeks. I don't drink rum. It was just a practice run for whisky. It's sitting in a barrel and will mostly get given away. I tried my first bit yesterday which is now 3 months old and has had a combination of cloves, vanilla bean, star anise and a couple of other spices sitting in it for a month. I may actually become a rum drinker

2. "I haven't a clue why you pulled a sample and boiled it off, adding water back to it to check for alcohol." & "The question we all have, apparently, is what tool are you using to determine the alcohol content...???" I'm using the same technique I used to work out when my rum wash was finished. I calculated a theoretical yield of 12% ABV for that and after two weeks calculated using the method I'm about to explain at 11% and figured I was finished. This method works if you don't know your starting abv. Let's say your wash contains 5% ABV. If I take 100ml of my wash it will contain 5ml of alcohol, but I don't know that. If I boil away 50% of my 100ml of wash then I will boil away all the alcohol and some water, leaving all the solids. When I add back 50ml of water to make it 100ml again, I've got the same density of solids as my original wash, except I've now replaced the alcohol with water. I can easily calculate the alcohol content of my wash from the change in SG. In the case of my corn wash, there was no difference, meaning I have no alcohol :-(

3. "And the saccrification rest (when you added the barley malt) should have been longer as well. This is when you do your iodine (starch) check". Beer brewing buddy is coming over for a game of tennis and bringing iodine. We'll test for starch after tennis, probably while trying the spiced rum (see point 1 above)

4. "what was your starting gravity and what is it now?" I didn't measure SG. I figured that as I had 2 row barley and was fermenting on the grain, the enzymes would continue to make sugars during the ferment period, so there wouldn't be much point. I anticipated poor conversion (but not this poor) because of 2 row barley making up only 15% of the grain bill.

5. "I suspect that your corn gelatinization rest could have been longer. Did the "porridge" get pasty and sticky, or did it get watery and soupy?" Pasty and sticky. I started with 50kg of corn in a 200l vat, but had to divide it into another vat as it expanded so much.


6. "What was the temperature when it first started to boil?" I didn't boil it. I just took it to 200F and held it there for a couple of hours. I was following the no boil recipe.

7. "211 gallons...??? That's a fair bit beyond hobby scale...!!! That leave us, or at least me, wondering what your real intentions are.." I'll be retiring in a couple of years. I like Islay style whisky, and I don't want to worry about the cost when I'm retired, so I'm planning to make enough now to see me through for 30 years. I'll just do a big batch, fill a barrel, then sell the still. The rum, cognac and so-far-unsuccessful bourbon are just training runs for the malt whisky

Thanks for all the interest.

[steelmb]

I'm starting to like this guy. Go big or go home. LOL.

[skow69]

Most of us recommend small batches until you get a handle on the process. Ones first mash is rarely successful. Likewise, distilling fine spirits usually requires a few practice batches as well. Maybe you will be the exception that makes fantastic whiskey on the first try, or you might have to suffer through the learning curve like the rest of us. If it was that easy, we would hardly need a community this size to discuss processes and techniques.

There is a long list of possible reasons for the lack of alcohol in your wash, if that is indeed what you have. But your "boil half" test is invalid (because you would not boil off all of the alcohol) and we don't have nearly enough information to troubleshoot the situation. Try reading the parent site and new distillers reading lounge to get an idea of what you need to learn.

[Mikey-moo]

6. "What was the temperature when it first started to boil?" I didn't boil it. I just took it to 200F and held it there for a couple of hours. I was following the no boil recipe.

I think he meant the sample you boiled to get the abv.

I quite like your 'boil the bejeezus out of it, top it back up' method of determining the alcohol content. Yes you won't boil away 100% of the alcohol but I reckon 99% is close enough. Did you correct for the temperature difference in the before and after samples?

[just sayin]

The old timers didn't have instruments beyond they senses. They tasted their mash to see how sweet it was to test conversion and they tasted it later to see if it is ready to run. Just a thought...

[jedneck]

The old timers didn't have instruments beyond they senses. They tasted their mash to see how sweet it was to test conversion and they tasted it later to see if it is ready to run. Just a thought...

yup and yup and yup

is/was it sour?

[rager]

The old timers didn't have instruments beyond they senses. They tasted their mash to see how sweet it was to test conversion and they tasted it later to see if it is ready to run. Just a thought...

yup and yup and yup

is/was it sour?

when i taste my completed whiskey mash, the sourerness bites right in the back of my jaw. thats when i know its time to run. ill double check though with a hydrometer

[skow69]

Let me try a different way.

2. "I haven't a clue why you pulled a sample and boiled it off, adding water back to it to check for alcohol." & "The question we all have, apparently, is what tool are you using to determine the alcohol content...???" I'm using the same technique I used to work out when my rum wash was finished. I calculated a theoretical yield of 12% ABV for that and after two weeks calculated using the method I'm about to explain at 11% and figured I was finished. This method works if you don't know your starting abv. Let's say your wash contains 5% ABV. If I take 100ml of my wash it will contain 5ml of alcohol, but I don't know that. If I boil away 50% of my 100ml of wash then I will boil away all the alcohol and some water, leaving all the solids. When I add back 50ml of water to make it 100ml again, I've got the same density of solids as my original wash, except I've now replaced the alcohol with water. I can easily calculate the alcohol content of my wash from the change in SG. In the case of my corn wash, there was no difference, meaning I have no alcohol :-(

So what SG readings did you expect to get? When I check a finished ferment the SG is approximately 1.0. Boil and top up whatever, it is still going to be approximately 1.0.

What formula do you use to "easily calculate the alcohol content of my wash from the change in SG?"

Between this and the 800l first batch, made from a half ton of molasses, I'm starting to smell troll. The OP hasn't mentioned the size or style of his still. If it is a keg, that would take around 20 runs. That's quite a time committment for a guy with a full time job.

[MitchyBourbon]

Finally, I haven't a clue why you pulled a sample and boiled it off, adding water back to it to check for alcohol. That is not how its done. Unless this was an attempt to measure the OG after the fact that fermentation had progressed. If you didn't measure the OG, at least check the specific gravity at its current state. What's it measure?

Lol, that's what his procedure does. By boiling off nearly all of whatever alcohol that was present and replacing what was boiled off with a liquid with the same gravity as water; you can take a gravity reading and it will give the gravity of whatever is left, be it fermentable or not. A bit unconventional.

[Prairiepiss]

Wow. Just wow.

[jb-texshine]

I'm just sayin... hydrometers are 4.99$ at Brewhaus and shipping is another 4.99$
Would you stick a finger in a light socket to see if you have electricity? Yeah it would work but why....
Jb-tex
Og. Minus sg. X 130

[HDNB]

Finally, I haven't a clue why you pulled a sample and boiled it off, adding water back to it to check for alcohol. That is not how its done. Unless this was an attempt to measure the OG after the fact that fermentation had progressed. If you didn't measure the OG, at least check the specific gravity at its current state. What's it measure?

Lol, that's what his procedure does. By boiling off nearly all of whatever alcohol that was present and replacing what was boiled off with a liquid with the same gravity as water; you can take a gravity reading and it will give the gravity of whatever is left, be it fermentable or not. A bit unconventional.

HUH? you fellas got to dumb this down a bit for us learning impaired types. (with grade 9 math)

you got mix. unknown mix.
boil 50% away
add that much water to the mix.
you got your original volume back to 100%...of an unknown mix. well...i guess it's at least half water...

[skow69]

It's not you HDNB. That procedure is already as dumb as it gets.

[MitchyBourbon]

You boil away whatever alcohol is in the sample add an equal amount of water. Now when you take a gravity reading, you are getting a reading that measures only what's left. And that would be fermentable and unfermentable sugars. The water that is added because if you boiled off half the sample the fermentable and unfermentable would be concentrated.

Normally, we all are AOK with taking a final gravity reading of a ferment. We know that the presence of alcohol skews the reading just a tad. The original poster presented an attempt to give us a reading that eliminated that error by removing the alcohol. That's all.

I think Mikey moo gets it. P P sure does.

[skow69]

That is not what he said.

I can easily calculate the alcohol content of my wash from the change in SG. (Preboil to postboil.)

Would someone who believes in this please try it and tell us what you get?

[MitchyBourbon]

If he took a gravity reading before boiling and subtracted what was left he could give you the answer, numb nuts.

[skow69]

So why not try it your own self, and post your findings? I did.

[MitchyBourbon]

No need to.

[skow69]

Lol. Anybody else? So far mine is the only trial, and it shows the procedure is meaningless.

[MitchyBourbon]

Why don't you back that up with some results. Numb nuts.

[MitchyBourbon]

And explain it so everyone can understand.

[MitchyBourbon]

Lol. Anybody else? So far mine is the only trial, and it shows the procedure is meaningless.

So you've taken a trial... that was mighty fast. We are all waiting for your results.