Question About Using an Oak Barrel

[troyster]

So, I've been given a 6 gallon barrel as a birthday gift. It's from a proper cooperage, made of oak, been medium charred and ready for use... but all I've done to date is single still runs, producing around 6 pints of 98% alcohol, then diluted to 40% before adding flavouring. Using a barrel seems somewhat daunting and I'd really appreciate from advice from those with experience in this area.

To what abv should I dilute the 98% alcohol for barrelling? I seem to recall that 'cask strength' is around 60%, but that could be nonsense (or irrelevant)
Should I fill the barrel all the way or should I leave an air gap?
Once filled do I just seal it up and stash it on it's front / side? Does it need turning?

And, possibly more important of all, should I flavour it in some way? After all, the alcohol my still produces from the sugar wash is nearly tasteless, whereas whiskey and brandy no doubt have a load of flavours carried over from the mash. Should I use wine to dilute the alcohol (to produce brandy) or maybe beer (to produce whiskey)?

As I'm intending keeping this sealed up for 10 years, opening it when I'm 50, I want to do all I can to make sure it's done as well as possible. (I'll certainly be using Birdwatcher's wash recipe together with champagne yeast to try to minimise the risk of off-flavours).

[still_stirrin]

Welcome to HD, Troyster.

With a 6 gallon barrel and 3 to 4 liter product runs, it'll take you a few runs to fill the barrel. But that's OK as it will help balance the nuances between the different runs (its hard to make them all exactly alike even if they come from a common ferment).

I suggest before you add spirits to the cask, that you fill it with water to expand the wood and help seal it up tight. It will also help rinse the ash from the charred surfaces. Fill it up and let it soak for a week before you are ready to start adding the spirit. Be sure to keep topping the water level up while you wait. I would even drain it once and refill with fresh water again.

When you get ready to add your spirit, temper it down to 120-130 proof, as that's the strength which extracts the best flavors from the wood. Higher or lower will pull different (and possibly unpleseant) flavors. I would begin checking the whiskey color and flavor after 6 months, so you can see the progress. When it gets to a satisfying finish, you could begin pulling some off, diluting to drinking strength, and bottling.

Then, add more spirit back to the cask. It will blend, add freshness, and continue to make your whiskey. Then, for your 50th birthday, you'll have a cask plus some bottles of fine drinking whiskey...with experience of what it will be.

One thing to note, as cask size reduces, it will mature quicker. And with the increase in surface area to volume ratio inside the cask, the evaporation will likely be greater. So, shrinkage will be faster in a smaller (than a 55 gallon) cask.

As you browse the website, there are many, many threads about how any why different distillers age and flavor their whiskeys. Spend some time reading to gain a good knowledge of the process and purpose. Wisdom is your best ally.

Be safe. Be responsible. And be discrete.
ss

[troyster]

Thanks SS

That's great info. I knew there'd be experienced wise folk here!

You mention evaporation and shrinkage, but I'm not entirely sure I understand. Do you mean that the cask staves will shrink over time and potentially cause a leak?

I'll have a trawl through the site to see what others have posted. Do you have any specific posts in mind?

Thanks again

[bitter]

Sounds like you have a reflux still also.. Barrels more commonly used for whisky or rum.

If you want a good whisky all grain rules but a sugar head from the tried and true like sweet feed or UJSSM make a really nice drop too. It will be much nicer than flavoring. Those flavorings are not upto par in my books.

I have been doing 35 gallon ferments for sweet feed. Each run I get 2g of nice really nice whisky with tight cuts at about 62.5-65%. I could have got more but went with tighter cuts as that is to my liking. You could fill a 5 g barrel in about 2-3 ferments that size depending on your cuts. What I like to do is strip the ferment and then run a spirit run. This make cuts easier also. Also a fair bit of fients to be used for a reflux run after. Got about 2g of 45% vodka now as a result

B

[still_stirrin]

You mention evaporation and shrinkage, but I'm not entirely sure I understand. Do you mean that the cask staves will shrink over time and potentially cause a leak?

No, the liquor will. Ever heard of " the angel's share"? It increases proportionally as the surface to volume ratio increases. Somewhat dependent too on the stave thickness.

But remember that wood is porous, and it DOES breath. Sometimes the proof will rise if water evaporates, but mostly the volume will shrink over time. Sometimes the proof will go down too. It seems to be affected by the relative humidity of the barrel house in which the barrel is kept. So, it likely will vary throughout the year, depending on where you live.

Lotza' reading....
ss

[Hound Dog]

You had asked about flavoring. Don't mess your barrel up with flavoring! The barrel is the flavor. Like you had guessed, a sugar wash at 95% from your boka is not a good choice to put in a barrel. I don't know what reflux setup you have but you can make a sweet feed wash and run it fast through hearts so it comes off at a lower proof and still have a good whiskey. I can run my boka so I take heads off at 172 degees and then open it up when I hit hearts so the temp jumps to around 180-185. This allows loads of flavor to come through by dragging up a slight bit of tails. This is still way too high of proof for aging on wood so I cut it with distilled water to 130 proof and add wood or in your case barrel it. The sweet feed will make a nice faux whiskey.

[troyster]

Lotza' reading...

Lotza reading's right! I'm having a little trouble understand some of these terms. "Sweet feed" for example, and "Sugar head"... could you clarify?

I think I understand your comments, Hound Dog, but just to be clear, are you saying I should raise the still temp (after the heads) for a lower ABV, but potentially with a little more flavour from the wash?

[Hound Dog]

Lotza' reading...

Lotza reading's right! I'm having a little trouble understand some of these terms. "Sweet feed" for example, and "Sugar head"... could you clarify?

I think I understand your comments, Hound Dog, but just to be clear, are you saying I should raise the still temp (after the heads) for a lower ABV, but potentially with a little more flavour from the wash?

What kind of still are you running? This will be relevant to my statement.

A sugarhead is just a basic wash with sugar and nutrients mostly a reference for a neutral but it can be a faux whiskey like UJSSM. If you make a wash with sugar, you are not mashing or converting the starch in grains to sugar. Hence sugarhead.

Sweet feed it a horse feed made of corn, oats and barley with molasses drizzled in it. Not a farmer eh? Look in the section labeled Tried and True recipes and you will find different recipies. This is another sugarhead recipe.

[troyster]

I use a column still, so most of the flavour of the wash is lost (my last batch came out around 195% proof). Would it still be worth using the sweetfeed, but cranking up the temp to allow more of the wash through? Or maybe just use some of the left over liquid in the boiler to dilute the alcohol?

[Saltbush Bill]

Or maybe just use some of the left over liquid in the boiler to dilute the alcohol?

That would be just like adding a couple of jars of real bad tails.

[still_stirrin]

I use a column still, so most of the flavour of the wash is lost (my last batch came out around 195% proof).

First off...your product couldn't have been 195% because 100% is PURE alcohol by volume (ABV). And 195 proof is pretty damn pure, so you obviously have a reflux column. But I am curious what type it is: CM, VM, or (most likely) LM? And if you're getting 97%ABV (194+ proof) out of it, you must have some magic method because you're running it at azeotropic conditions...impressive, to say the least!

Or maybe just use some of the left over liquid in the boiler to dilute the alcohol?

Yuk....

What I can determine from your questions, however, is that you need to read more. It makes me nervous about your safety if you don't know better than these questions indicate. Take some time and read a while, and I suggest (again) to read ALL of Cranky's Spoon Feed thread linked in my signature.

Troyster, I'm not picking on you...I just want you to be safe.
ss

[Hound Dog]

I use a column still, so most of the flavour of the wash is lost (my last batch came out around 195% proof). Would it still be worth using the sweetfeed, but cranking up the temp to allow more of the wash through? Or maybe just use some of the left over liquid in the boiler to dilute the alcohol?

What sort of column is what I was getting at. With a boka (LM), temp of the vapor above the packing/under the plate tells you a lot. Yes, despite what many say, you can make a flavored drink from this. I reflux, let things stack in equalibrium so the fores and heads are at the top. Take them off slowly maintaining your 172-173 vapor temp. Then as you get to hearts if you increase the takeoff speed the temp will rise. Find the point where you are between 180-185 and it does not smell too tailsy. This will be a high proof flavorful spirit although not the 195% of a neutral. I am not sure for a CM column but would think it would have to be similar. I really don't know if this method would work with a VM column at all as I am not familiar enough with running one.

Doing stripping runs and using low wines makes the process easier.

Check out these threads. They vary in methods a bit but also explain getting flavor from a column. These are two well respected distillers, one of which has unfortunately passed on.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=39751
And
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 11&t=39091

[spirit run dave]

Thanks ss
Great answer, I haven't started oaking yet but it is in the working.
Cleared up questions that I was going to have.+1

[troyster]

Thanks everyone - all good stuff.

I've had a read through the recipes posted here (and elsewhere on the forum). My concern is that, as I'm getting such a high concentration of alcohol (genuinely 95% ABV or more) from my LM still a lot of the flavour is going to be lost. I understand the idea of upping the temperature during the hearts, which may help, but I'm wondering if it might be worth making a small brew of unhopped beer from pale malt only and using this (or some of this) to dilute down to cask strength.

Thoughts?

[rad14701]

If you are striving for flavored spirits then a reflux column run as such is not the right tool for the job... While you can de-tune the LM column to add flavor you would have to experiment... I used to run a short packed column for flavored spirits and often completely removed the take off needle valve on my LM rig...

What LM design are you running...??? Have you posted pics of your rig...???

I would not recommend diluting to barrel strength using wash...

[still_stirrin]

....I'm wondering if it might be worth making a small brew of unhopped beer from pale malt only and using this (or some of this) to dilute down to cask strength???

OK...OK...OK...try it!

Obviously you haven't been doing your required reading yet and you continue to pursue rogue ideas. If you truely want to "muck up" some of your hard earned distillate...have at it. But when you come back and say it tastes like crap, you'll hear more than one "I told you so".

Rad gave you a great suggestion...to detune your LM. But his best suggestion is get "the right tool for the job"...a potstill head. They're the easiest to make...anybody can make one. And you really should have one in your toolbox. A potstill head is the most functional for stripping and full-flavored spirits, like rum & whiskey, which it sounds like you're trying to make. If you would spend time READING the site, you'll understand this better.

So, if you want to put backset or wash into your clean spirit, then have at it. And please...do tell us what you discover, Troyster.
ss

[troyster]

Apologies, SS - I'm genuinely not ignoring your suggestions and your point is received. I have been doing some reading around the site (including the links shared in this thread), but I keep getting bogged down in terms I don't really understand. I'm certainly not averse to making a pot still - it looks fairly exciting! And if that's going to be the best way forward, then that's what I'll go for.

[teh721]

Personally I wouldn't waste a good barrel by putting spirits that were distilled at such a high abv. Remember to technically (or legally) call something whiskey it cant be distilled at higher than 160 proof. That insures that flavors from whatever grains you used (corn, rye, barley, etc) are imparted into the final product. Adding that to a proper barrel then enhances and adds to the flavor, and there's a reason the big guys only use a barrel once. You can re-use the barrels but each time you do, it takes longer to achieve the same result.

I would proceed with your plans to build a good pot still and do a number of grain runs until you have enough 130 proof whiskey to fill the barrel (thats the general consensus on the best proof to use for best flavor/aging) and if you really want to oak age your higher proof spirits, use chips instead of the barrel.

Just my opinion,
TEH721

[cuginosgrizzo]

I keep getting bogged down in terms I don't really understand.

Hi troyster, use this as a reference for obscure terms:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=58100

[Hound Dog]

Personally I wouldn't waste a good barrel by putting spirits that were distilled at such a high abv. Remember to technically (or legally) call something whiskey it cant be distilled at higher than 160 proof. That insures that flavors from whatever grains you used (corn, rye, barley, etc) are imparted into the final product. Adding that to a proper barrel then enhances and adds to the flavor, and there's a reason the big guys only use a barrel once.

All that nonsense is for legal bourbon. Like what we are making is legal (snicker).

[Hank Reardon]

It looks to me like some are being trolled. Or, troyster (trouser autocorrect) is opie.

Either way, trouser should add flavoring, use backset to dilute, or add an India pale ale to get more robust flavor. I will be the guy who steps aside and says you will never know until you try. Go!!!