Alumin(i)umboiler kegs

[Donk]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

[Swedish Pride]

don't need no gun, I've got a donk.

Sorry that is all I can contribute with in my current state

[rad14701]

Donk, the question for you is are you willing to take the chance on having tainted spirits or having an aluminum boiler corrode and leak...??? We have members who have had aluminum boiler failures over the course of very few runs... There is good reason why aluminum is not an approved material in The Rules We Live By...

Even if no aluminum carried over into your spirits, which is entirely possible regardless of what you think, the off smell definitely carries over...

Why take the chance...??? Please explain your motives here...

[Kareltje]

I planned to visit the library of my university to find some articles about Al in food.
And about the use of aluminium in foodprocessing.
I do not like the metal, for it is not very healthy in soilchemistry and is considered to be a factor in braindiseases. But if I like it or not, should not be an argument.
As far as I have seen the abstracts of the articles, aluminium in unprocessed food is not a problem. The problem arises when Al-containing additives are used. These are added to the foods, not taken from the utensils!

I know from research that copper goes into the product, when copper stills are used. Mainly from the condensers!

Aluminium is easily attacked by both acid and basic fluids, so I would not like to use it as a boiler. But higher in the path?
As I said: I do not like it. But that is personal.

[Kareltje]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

Ah shit!! Sorry for my former post. You were not talking about aluminium at all.
Yes, I have some article about copper in the distillate. And there are several articles of copper and ethylcarbamate. Can not find them at this moment, drank too much ouzo.

Distillate contains acids, which can attack metals. So it is not far fetched to assume that metals can get into distillate. But then the point is: is that harmful? And as you asked: is there any proof?

For fairytales and horrorstories are not interesting.

[jb-texshine]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

Just wanted to say.... if it can carry lead what would make you think that it can't carry metal. Your gonna have to explain the thinking behind that first...

[shadylane]

Just a thought.
Aluminum is much cheaper than copper.
When the commercial distillers start using it for a boiler
I'll consider using it

[Kareltje]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

Just wanted to say.... if it can carry lead what would make you think that it can't carry metal. Your gonna have to explain the thinking behind that first...

Do you have any source to support your claim that distillate does carry lead?

[Kareltje]

Just a thought.
Aluminum is much cheaper than copper.
When the commercial distillers start using it for a boiler
I'll consider using it

Good thinking! I am serious!
But commercial distillers have multiple reasons for their actions.
And maybe it would be interesting to think about this reasons.

[jb-texshine]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

Just wanted to say.... if it can carry lead what would make you think that it can't carry metal. Your gonna have to explain the thinking behind that first...

Do you have any source to support your claim that distillate does carry lead?

That's a screenshot of the CDC study conducted in 1991 in Alabama. Google for your self.

Sent from my KYOCERA-C6745 using Tapatalk

[shadylane]

Just a thought.
Aluminum is much cheaper than copper.
When the commercial distillers start using it for a boiler
I'll consider using it

Good thinking! I am serious!
But commercial distillers have multiple reasons for their actions.
And maybe it would be interesting to think about this reasons.

Good thinking, maybe we can figure out, some of the reasons why copper and SS is used, while aluminum isn't
Before Nomex Panties are needed

[Hound Dog]

Hi all, thanks for looking in. Can anybody point me to research which difinitively proves that distillate can carry metals whist in vapour form? AFAIK distillate can`t do this?

Just wanted to say.... if it can carry lead what would make you think that it can't carry metal. Your gonna have to explain the thinking behind that first...

Do you have any source to support your claim that distillate does carry lead?

That's a screenshot of the CDC study conducted in 1991 in Alabama. Google for your self.

Sent from my KYOCERA-C6745 using Tapatalk

Not saying that lead won't carry over from a boiler in vapor but.... the car radiator thing is from using it as a product condenser where it would carry directly to your collection jar.

There are a couple of heated threads on the board about keeping copper out of the descending path and only in the ascending path as it is believed it will not carry up with the vapor.

[Donk]

Donk, the question for you is are you willing to take the chance

No I`m not, which is why I asked for definitive research/scientific evidence into the subject rather than thoughts, opinions, hearsay or anecdotal evidence.
I can understand that metals can be dissolved and collected on the condenser side of a still due to the solvent properties of high strength alcohol but not boilerside or we would all be suffering from whatever it is you think it is that it causes as It is absolutely everywhere and in virtually in everything we eat and drink.

[dukethebeagle120]

just one thing to think about.aluminium pressure cookers have been around for like 100 years.
beer can,coke cans.i am not advocating for but if presto used alum. to make
a great product and still does i cant see the problem
must not be that bad i aint dead yet

[thecroweater]

Beer cans have a coating and pressure cookers are made for stews etc rather than very strong solvents. Will metals carry over in vapour? If you can smell it its there , is it in a harmful amount? Dunno. One thing is for certain is that most aluminium alloys will fail in little time and an electrolysis will burn it out in no time. The reason its not used commercially is the same reason most home stillers don't use it, because its not a suitable material for the job

[Donk]

So why is it unsuitable? your wash isn`t a strong solvent unless I`m missing something and the distillate solvent doesn`t come until contact as it only contacts the copper or steel still and condenser. The primary reason ali hasn`t traditionally been used for boilers is that is wasn`t created until the mid 19th century and people have been using copper forever. but this again this is anecdotal and not real evidence

[Danespirit]

I can't remember where I read the following statement, so it's hard to come up with a link to the source.
Aluminium will corrode when it's exposed to alcohol, due to a chemical reaction. As we all know chemical reactions speed up when heat is added.
The reaction of aluminum and ethanol forms aluminum triethoxide.
It's a bit like putting a Zinc bar on your boat, that will act as a sacrificial anode.
The salt water won't eat away the leg of your boat motor, which is typically made out of an Aluminium alloy.

Here is what medics say about the effect on the body: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1673624" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Donk, please just stop. You are starting to sound like you didn't come here to learn, but to try and change thousands of people's beliefs. All in your 3rd post.

If you want research, YOU go get it and present it. It's not our responsibility to prove it to you. That discussion has been made before, and the community's view decided. You want to try and influence, that is on your shoulders to provide info. We're not going to just sit here and feed you info for you to dispute the validity of at your leisure.

Then again, it feels as if you have been told this before.

You want to, ain't no one stopping you. Stop trying to make us agree with you.

[Hound Dog]

your wash isn`t a strong solvent unless I`m missing something

I'm not so sure about that. I stripped a rum wash yesterday with a bubble ball/ inline thumper on the kettle to help control the foam. It's all copper and it went from tarnished brown to bright shiny copper after the run. This leads back to your original question though, did the copper that was disowned carry over in the vapor? I use stainless on the descending side (another explosive thread) and I don't see any blue or green tinge to the liquor. A visible amount did not come through the vapor. I don't have a gas chromatograph though.

I don't look like this dude yet...

images.jpg (5.93 KiB) Viewed 5313 times

[still_stirrin]

So why is it unsuitable? your wash isn`t a strong solvent unless I`m missing something and the distillate solvent doesn`t come until contact as it only contacts the copper or steel still and condenser.

Donk, are you suggesting that the space above the wash surface inside the boiler won't come in contact with the high temperature alcohol vapors?

I believe this whole argument is "wasted breath". Do you actually have an aluminum keg to use as a boiler? Are you certain that it is aluminum? That would be very rare....and old. Even with the popularity of aluminum cookware in the 50's and 60's, beer kegs were being manufactured from stainless steel (at least in the USA). And if it has a Sanke tap (single valve) outlet, it most assuredly is stainless.

The bottomline....it's one of the rules you agreed to when you joined this website. No need to argue the point...it's a rule. Rallying an argument otherwise is simply "trollish".

[Donk]

My OG question was asking if anyone knew of any research into the subject. It hasn`t been answered and if my discussion of the anecdotal replies is considered argumentative or `trolling`, I guess I`m in the wrong place?

[der wo]

Distillate can carry everything. It's not a question about boiling points.
When the particles are small enough, they get entrained up the column and into the product condenser. Without this effect it would not be possible to distill peated malts for example. Phenols don't get gaseous in the boiler and condense again in the condenser. For example: The malted barley of Ardbeg has 54ppm. The resulting spirit has 24ppm. This proves, that a large portion of small particles can find its way into the distillate.
Think about a sand storm. Fine sand is flying but large stones not. Aluminiumoxide will be molecular size.

[Donk]

right, so even though it isn`t dissolved in the vapour, `physics carries it up the column?

[der wo]

I don't know, if aluminium compounds get solved. Perhaps an aluminium salt gets solved. Perhaps entrainment is higher with solved compounds.
But of course there is no aluminium compound vapor at 100°C maximum.

[Kareltje]

I followed the link to the article of lead poisening and found some interesting information. Unfortunately only in abstracts: apparently I do not have the rights to the full article. But if you really want to read it, you could contact your local university, no doubt.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00016616.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Dix, T. et al.
Elevated Blood Lead Levels Associated with Illicitly Distilled Alcohol -- Alabama, 1990-1991
MMWR 41 (17): 294-295 may 1992
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8512441" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Pegues, D.A. et al.
Elevated blood lead levels associated with illegally distilled alcohol.
Arch. Intern. Med. 153 (12): 1501-1504 june 1993
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12944887" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Morgan, B.W. et al.
Elevated blood lead levels associated with the consumption of moonshine among emergency department patients in Atlanta, Georgia.
Ann. Emerg. Med. 42 (3): 351-358 sep 2003
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15080213" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Morgan, B.W. et al.
Lead contaminated moonshine: a report of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms analyzed samples.
Vet. Hum. Toxicol. 46 (2): 89-90 apr 2004
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15462151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Holstege, C.P. et al.
Analysis of moonshine for contaminants.
J. Toxicol. Clin. Toxicol. 42 (5): 597-601 2004
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7458415" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Gerhardt, R.E. et al.
Trace element content of moonshine.
Arch. Environ. Health 35 (6): 332-334 nov/dec 1980
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7352816" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Gerhardt, R.E. et al.
Moonshine-related arsenic poisoning.
Arch. Intern. Med. 140 (2): 211-213 feb 1980
(Abstract only)

And here http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p7431629
I collected other articles.

There are some articles on cachaca and on ethyl-carbamate and some include copper and acids. After reading these it seems to me that copper in distillate stems from the descending path, where the slightly acid vapours condense and flow downward. The source of lead seems to be the leadcontaining solder of parts of the condenser, but the abstracts of the articles are not always clear about that.

Speaking for myself: I would not like Al in my boiler because I fear it would be eaten away by the hot wash. And I would rather use zinc or iron in my condenser, for these are less detrimental than aluminium. Leaves the riser and/or lyne arm. I would fear contact corrosion with the other parts.

[thecroweater]

My OG question was asking if anyone knew of any research into the subject. It hasn`t been answered and if my discussion of the anecdotal replies is considered argumentative or `trolling`, I guess I`m in the wrong place?

What research would you like oh entitled one? That a finished wash and or stillage is acidic? That acids react badly with aluminium? That acids encourage electrolysis? That alcohol vapour is a solvent? . These are known facts, guys here could do all this research for you or here's another idea if you disagree with everyone, try doing ya own bloody research

[Kareltje]

Alcohol is a solvent for (some) organic matter, but not for metals. Neither is water.
Both may slightly attack some metals because they donate protons.
But the hot vapours also contain some acids, like acetic acid.

[Mikey-moo]

Not just the hot vapours... the backset from stilling is highly acidic and will eat through aluminium in double quick time. Buy stainless from the start and save the hassle of replacing early.

[still_stirrin]

...if my discussion of the anecdotal replies is considered argumentative...I guess I`m in the wrong place...

What research would you like oh entitled one?...if you disagree with everyone, try doing ya own bloody research.

crow.

I'm gonna get in trouble for this (thanks a lot, Swedish Pride), but if you querried the Urban Dictionary, you'd find this:
Donk (n). a very round, attractive ghetto-syle booty.
derivation: shortened form of badonkadonk, as in, "damn, i wanna hit that fine donk."

[Skipper1953]

Donk was also the name of a character in Crocodile Dundee. WTF?!