Alumin(i)umboiler kegs

[shadylane]

Donk was also the name of a character in Crocodile Dundee. WTF?!

Hells of fire, Now I have to research all the characters on Crocodile Dundee

[shadylane]

Here's some info on Donk
Steve "Crusher" Rackman is a genuine icon of the Australian wrestling scene, and his craggy face and hulking physique is well known to millions of film fans around the world via his appearances as "Donk" in the "Crocodile Dundee" series of films. Born in the UK, young Steve lifted weights, boxed and worked the door at many rough bars before getting involved in professional wrestling.

Rackman migrated to Australia and became a favorite "villain" on the high rating "World Championship Wrestling" telecast on the Channel Nine Network in the early 1970s, and fought alongside other crowd favorites including Larry O'Dea, Mario Milano, Bulldog Brower, King Kurtis and Cyclone Negro. Rackman even fought the legendary André the Giant in front of 10,000 howling fans at Melbourne's legendary Festival Hall.

Not long after the demise of "World Championship Wrestling", Rackman first appeared on screen as the intimidating German miner "Carl" keen to punch on with rigging boss Gerard Kennedy in The Last of the Knucklemen (1979). This was followed by roles in Turkey Shoot (1982), in which Steve plays some sort of humanoid wolf who hunts down escaped prisoners before lunching on them, then in the film At Last... Bullamakanka: The Motion Picture (1983). Rackman put in a great character performance as bar tough guy "Donk" in the mega hit Crocodile Dundee (1986), and also appeared in the sequels Crocodile Dundee II (1988) and Crocodile Dundee in Los Angeles (2001).

In total Steve has appeared in over 40 feature films and dozens of TV commercials, and these days is in semi-retirement and running his gym at Coogee in Sydney, Australia.

[Kareltje]

So?
What has his avatar or nickname or history got to do with his question?
Nice to know, fun to hear, but not relevant for the subject at hand.

[rad14701]

So?
What has his avatar or nickname or history got to do with his question?
Nice to know, fun to hear, but not relevant for the subject at hand.

About as much as asking the question for the umpteenth time... We've beat that dead horse, propped it back up, and beat it down again... And again...

[Kareltje]

I have seen articles (i.e. abstracts (and one should not blindly trust them!!) ) on lead and copper and even arsenic in moonshine or distillate, but not yet on aluminium.
There are a lot of articles about Al in food, mostly coming from additives. But I have to find and read them.

I, speaking for myself, do not trust it. I would not use Al, because of personal feelings.
But I do not have any really reliable proof that it can be found in distillate.
Maybe because no one ever tried it, but no proof is no proof.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

So?
What has his avatar or nickname or history got to do with his question?
Nice to know, fun to hear, but not relevant for the subject at hand.

Ahhh sucks. You're no fun. Guess we better get back on hand.

What was that again? Oh yes. The incessant moping about how we're not fair to aluminum. Oh yes. Let's focus back on that. Cause THAT'S going somewhere. Unlike an actual contribution like the definition of donk. Or dork. Or something entertainingat least.

[Kareltje]

So?
What has his avatar or nickname or history got to do with his question?
Nice to know, fun to hear, but not relevant for the subject at hand.

Ahhh sucks. You're no fun. Guess we better get back on hand.

What was that again? Oh yes. The incessant moping about how we're not fair to aluminum. Oh yes. Let's focus back on that. Cause THAT'S going somewhere. Unlike an actual contribution like the definition of donk. Or dork. Or something entertainingat least.

I don't mind fun or jokes

There was a young lady from Clyde,
who ate much green apples and died.
The apples fermented,
inside the lamented,
and made cider inside her inside.

But real, reliable arguments against Al, supported by sound research, I did not see.

[pfshine]

. And I would rather use zinc or iron in my condenser, for these are less detrimental than aluminium. .

Huh. Copper or ss that's it. Zink dissolves faster than a mentos in a diet coke. And iron will rust out in a heartbeat.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Xring01 is on a quest to make a perfect bourbon and he gets crickets while the mere mention of aluminum tips off a real post party.

I'm with SCD on this one, couldn't say it any better myself.

[der wo]

I have seen articles (i.e. abstracts (and one should not blindly trust them!!) ) on lead and copper and even arsenic in moonshine or distillate, but not yet on aluminium.

Is aluminium used for large scale commercial illegal distilling? I don't think. At least I never saw it on my favourite TV-series . So of course they don't find it.
I don't think there will ever be a study about aluminium contamination in spirits from 6l aluminium pressure cooker stills...

[Kareltje]

No, you are right about that. But I also did not see the use of car radiators in this beloved serie.

Maybe I already gave:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23402858" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Fekete, V. et all.
Estimation of dietary aluminum exposure of the Belgian adult population: evaluation of contribution of food and kitchenware.
Food Chem. Toxicol. 55: 602-608 may 2013
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25473496" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Sato, K. et al
Estimation of daily aluminum intake in Japan based on food consumption inspection results: impact of food additives.
Food Sci. Nutr. (4): 389-397 Jul 2014
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27092423" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Ogimoto, M. et al.
Aluminium content of foods originating from aluminium-containing food additives.
Food Addit. Contam. Part B Surveill. 9 (3): 185-190 Sep 2016
(Abstract only)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24786247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Deng, G.F. et al
Aluminium content of some processed foods, raw materials and food additives in China by inductively coupled plasma-mass spectrometry.
Food Addit. Contam. Part B Surveill. 4 (4): 248-253 2011
(Abstract only)

Especially the first suggests that the main source of aluminium intake is not the kitchenware.

[Kareltje]

. And I would rather use zinc or iron in my condenser, for these are less detrimental than aluminium. .

Huh. Copper or ss that's it. Zink dissolves faster than a mentos in a diet coke. And iron will rust out in a heartbeat.

The rusting of iron is a myth: it can easily be prevented by proper care. My scythe is made of iron as is my favorite kitchenknife. Both have very thin parts, going strong for years.
The hole in my iron boiler is not caused by the metal, but by the shape of the boiler that made it impossible to dry it properly. Had this still been made of copper, I would have had a lot of problems with blue or green distillate.
Zinc indeed dissolves in acid fluids, but can withstand neutral vapour. And it can act as protection against the dissolving of lead and iron by sacrificing itself.

[der wo]

But there is nothing about aluminium and distilled foods in your links.
And if you google with words like aluminium and distillation, you will find nothing, what matches to our question.

But when you google entrainment and distillation, you will find much. For example:
http://www.istitutofermiverona.it/LEZIO ... stilop.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"Entrainment refers to the liquid carried by vapour up to the tray above and is again caused by high vapour flow rates. It is deterimental because tray efficiency is reduced: lower volatile material is carried to a plate holding liquid of higher volatility. It could also contaminate high purity distillate."

And many studies (too complicated for my slow English). You could collect a few links in your link thread and here. And perhaps you find some results and conclusions.

Entrainment seems to be relative independent of the compound. Aluminium oxides and salts get entrained at the same quantity like other compounds probably. Probably the quantity of aluminium in the liquid, the vapor speed and the distance from liquid surface to the highest point of the still are the main parameters, not if it's aluminium, lead or copper compounds.

If we have examples of how much of any molecular size non-boiling substance gets entrained in a still, we have a strong indication, that aluminium compounds in our stills would behave similar.

[Kegg_jam]

Anybody that ever witnessed a single puking incident would know that damn near anything in the boiler can and will come over in the distillate given enough power is applied or carelessness in the operation of the still.

So if the Al is solvent in the acidic environment of a mash/wash and the still is driven hard enough to cause serious entrainment, wouldn't it be logical that the Al is going to come over with the distillate?

Granted that is an extreme circumstance and who would drink that..?

[Bushman]

It amazes me that this has gotten 2 pages of comments. We are a forum that promotes safety and we have only a few materials that we would recommend to come in contact with both vapor and alcohol, aluminum is not one of them period.

[Kareltje]

To speak for myself: safety is exactly why I discuss this subject. I like to know what I am talking about, and since I reached the age of 14 I like to have arguments, not orders. I like to have solid arguments and research, not simple retweets.
I think about whatever material I see, and then find arguments to use it or not. About aluminium I see no strong arguments for either side.

[Bushman]

Here is an old thread by members that have used aluminum pots. One of the main thing I got out of it is that thicker pressure cookers without plastic won't breakdown like some of the thinner aluminum pots that are on the market today. I guess it's like our thoughts on plastic, I read somewhere that there are basically 11 types of plastic and only one was safe for distilling. We feel that most people if we give them a choice may choose wrong. But I think this thread is worth reading.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=aluminum

[rad14701]

Here is an old thread by members that have used aluminum pots. One of the main thing I got out of it is that thicker pressure cookers without plastic won't breakdown like some of the thinner aluminum pots that are on the market today. I guess it's like our thoughts on plastic, I read somewhere that there are basically 11 types of plastic and only one was safe for distilling. We feel that most people if we give them a choice may choose wrong. But I think this thread is worth reading.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=aluminum

Aluminum, like other metals, is available in a wide variety of alloys... Pure aluminum is not durable at all compared to aluminum alloys... However, for this very reason, much like with synthetics, it is better to be safe than sorry and lump all aluminum into the mix as being unacceptable... It's hard to determine the alloy content of aluminum, unlike stainless steel which has the alloy grade number imprinted on tubing and sheet/plate... And with SS we know which alloy grades are acceptable...

[Kareltje]

But there is nothing about aluminium and distilled foods in your links.
And if you google with words like aluminium and distillation, you will find nothing, what matches to our question.

But when you google entrainment and distillation, you will find much. For example:

If we have examples of how much of any molecular size non-boiling substance gets entrained in a still, we have a strong indication, that aluminium compounds in our stills would behave similar.

Well, I got some hits on aluminium and distillation, most of them of the same kind as this thread. Found a few people who had used Al pressure cookers for some time to their satisfaction without any off flavors.

Entrainment and distillation gave some hits, but as I do not have a column with plates and sieves, I can not judge the relevance of this articles. Somebody with some experience might pick that up.

I did find a question in some forum:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=485032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

leading to an article about alcohol-gasoline mixture in al-gastanks and to:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1979JChPh..71.1537E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Evans, H.E. & W.H. Weinberg
The reaction of ethanol with an aluminium oxide surface studied by inelastic electron tunneling spectroscopy.
Journal of Chemical Physics, 71 (4): 1537-1542 1979
(Abstract only)

Inelastic electron tunneling spectroscopy (IETS) has been employed to study the vibrational structure of ethanol reacting with a clean alumina surface as a function of temperature from 295 to 575 K. The spectra for the surface species up to approximately 450 K correspond to infrared spectra of aluminum ethoxide, Al(OC2H5)3. Between 450 and 475 K the structure changes from an ethoxide to an acetate, the most obvious spectral change being the appearance of a new peak at approximately 1585 cm-1 (197 meV) which is characteristic of the asymmetric OCO stretching mode of various inorganic acetates. No further changes are observed above 475 K. Above 370 K, there is also a significant increase in the total concentration of adsorbed species. This is due to a partial dehydration or dehydroxylation of the surface, thus freeing active sites which had previously been blocked by water or hydroxyl groups formed during the initial stages of ethanol adsorption. This dehydration or dehydroxylation of the surface is simultaneously accompanied by a transformation of the bulk aluminum oxide to aluminum hydroxide.

295 K = 1,85 °C = 35,3 °F
370 K = 96,9 °C = 206 °F
450 K = 177 °C = 350 °F

The article on alcoholized-gasoline in Al-tanks describes that the Al is corroded by the water and by electro-corrosion because of parts of other metals, f.e. copper or iron parts of the motor or tank.

Specific Release Limits are in mg/kg food:
Al 5
Cu 4
Fe 40
Ni 0,14
Ag 0,08
Sn 100
Zn 5
Pb 0,01
It does not look so very bad at all, when you see this list and listen to people with their own experience. Only thing is: to me it is still not clear how much Al is released from the boiler and/or column and/or condenser AND is flowing towards the exit.

[Bushman]

Here is an old thread by members that have used aluminum pots. One of the main thing I got out of it is that thicker pressure cookers without plastic won't breakdown like some of the thinner aluminum pots that are on the market today. I guess it's like our thoughts on plastic, I read somewhere that there are basically 11 types of plastic and only one was safe for distilling. We feel that most people if we give them a choice may choose wrong. But I think this thread is worth reading.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=aluminum

Aluminum, like other metals, is available in a wide variety of alloys... Pure aluminum is not durable at all compared to aluminum alloys... However, for this very reason, much like with synthetics, it is better to be safe than sorry and lump all aluminum into the mix as being unacceptable... It's hard to determine the alloy content of aluminum, unlike stainless steel which has the alloy grade number imprinted on tubing and sheet/plate... And with SS we know which alloy grades are acceptable...

Kind of what I was trying to say with my plastic analogy, you just said it better than I did

[Kareltje]

Here is an old thread by members that have used aluminum pots. One of the main thing I got out of it is that thicker pressure cookers without plastic won't breakdown like some of the thinner aluminum pots that are on the market today. I guess it's like our thoughts on plastic, I read somewhere that there are basically 11 types of plastic and only one was safe for distilling. We feel that most people if we give them a choice may choose wrong. But I think this thread is worth reading.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... t=aluminum

Very good thread!
Is there not a way to keep this in sight, in stead of discussing this over and over again?
And some emphasis on the use of a sturdy, well made pressure cooker and not a cheap, simple kitchen pan.

And with SS we know which alloy grades are acceptable...

Is that so? I never ever have seen a remark NOT to use certain grades of ss. And now you state some grades of ss are not acceptable!

[rad14701]

And with SS we know which alloy grades are acceptable...

Is that so? I never ever have seen a remark NOT to use certain grades of ss. And now you state some grades of ss are not acceptable!

Just going from memory but 304 and 316 are acceptable... 409, while acceptable for automotive exhaust systems is not acceptable for stills because it forms surface rust readily... So, as you can see, we do know what grades of stainless steel are and are not acceptable... We have had this discussion before and most of the common grades have been discussed and are easily sourced via a Google search... As an example, stock pots are only made of acceptable grades of stainless steel - but the same cannot be said for aluminum as far as extreme resistance... You shouldn't even cook tomato products in aluminum cookware due to the acidity...

[shadylane]

Since there's little info on using aluminium for a boiler
Sounds like it's time for experiments.
Go to Walmart and buy a large cheap aluminum stock pot.
Pour a couple gallons of backset in and heat it to boiling for a couple hours.
Cool, dump and rinse. Inspect the aluminium for a change
Also test the AL stock pot by leaving some boiled backset in it for a couple days or weeks

[Kareltje]

And with SS we know which alloy grades are acceptable...

Is that so? I never ever have seen a remark NOT to use certain grades of ss. And now you state some grades of ss are not acceptable!

Just going from memory but 304 and 316 are acceptable... 409, while acceptable for automotive exhaust systems is not acceptable for stills because it forms surface rust readily... So, as you can see, we do know what grades of stainless steel are and are not acceptable... We have had this discussion before and most of the common grades have been discussed and are easily sourced via a Google search... As an example, stock pots are only made of acceptable grades of stainless steel - but the same cannot be said for aluminum as far as extreme resistance... You shouldn't even cook tomato products in aluminum cookware due to the acidity...

Maybe you do know, but I never ever have seen this discussion. I must admit: I am not allknowing. But neither are my fellowmen.
And by just saying that aluminium is a no-no and one should only use copper or ss you give very dangerous advice.
I, for example, do not know what your codes mean, so I might use a automotive exhaust system pipe for column or lyne arm, trusting your advice to use ss.
Most people do not even consider the existence of different grades and kinds of materials.
So I conclude that both the advice to use only copper or ss and the advice not to use aluminium are false.
For there are grades of ss that are NOT acceptable and there are grades of aluminium that ARE acceptable.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Sigh.

[Kareltje]

Since there's little info on using aluminium for a boiler
Sounds like it's time for experiments.
Go to Walmart and buy a large cheap aluminum stock pot.
Pour a couple gallons of backset in and heat it to boiling for a couple hours.
Cool, dump and rinse. Inspect the aluminium for a change
Also test the AL stock pot by leaving some boiled backset in it for a couple days or weeks

That's the spirit!
Try, look and learn!
That is why I trust reports of people who have used it for some time.
(Than you only have to research the effects of Al on the health of the drinkers.)

[shadylane]

I haven't a clue what the health effects are from using an AL boiler.
But, I'm sure leaving backset in a cheap AL stock pot for too long, isn't a good idea

[rad14701]

Here's some information on aluminum... My father worked for a military contractor for 42+ years... They used aluminum oxide grinding wheels, which he used all day long as a precision tool sharpener... They had no or only rudimentary exhaust ventilation during his career and now he and virtually every other long term employee are afflicted with Parkinsons Disease... It has also been associated with ADHD, Alzheimer's, and other neurological diseases... Now, will using aluminum in a still give you PD...??? Do you really want to find out late in life that such is the case...??? I pay the nursing home $11,000 per month for my fathers care due to his advanced PD...!!! If you want to use aluminum, start saving your money now...!!! It has cost upwards of $400,000 to date for my fathers care with no end in sight other than being close to out of money... Decide for yourself whether the risk is worth it...

[Truckinbutch]

Sigh.

I know what you mean . I swear ! That feller would argue with a possum !

[corene1]

Only been back a day but have been watching this thread progress. I for the life of me cannot figure out why a person would want to use aluminum in the distilling process. There has been plenty of evidence of potential health risks, not to mention material deterioration. Just a thought do you remember the adds for underarm deodorant that used aluminum chlorhydrate back in the day, well the stopped using that for a reason. Basically contributed to the occurrence of Alzheimer's diesease. It is even harder to understand using aluminum when there are already proven materials that are easily worked with and long lasting. I am no chemical specialist or metallurgist so why would I want to risk my and others health just to use something different. Then there is that ever present rule #8 in the rules we live by. We are guests here and should abide by the rules that are laid out for everyones health and safety .
Now if you are going to use aluminum to build with be prepared to spend some money on equipment. The only way you are going to add connectors, collars and such to aluminum is with a Heli-arc setup . They make an aluminum solder but it requires an Oxy Acetylene set up and is not very dependable or durable in my experience. So if you want to join a stainless or copper column to it you have to have a clamped or bolted connection and the matching half must be TIG welded to the aluminum vessel , also any drains or access ports must be aluminum and TIG welded . Seems like a lot of unnecessary work just to have an unsafe still that will not have good durability. Nope, I think I will stick to stainless and copper, just my thoughts though.