Heating sweet spot?

[spiff]

When I turn on my 5500w heater and start cranking up the amperage.. at a certain point you can hear the water start to boil on contact with the element.. a large "kschooosh" noise. I'm guessing that hearing this isn't ideal due to gasses limiting fluid contact with the element. So do you think the effective sweet spot for maximum efficiency is right before hearing this? Or is more power always better as far as heating speed goes?

Also, any thoughs on how this might effect life expectancy of the element?

[still_stirrin]

Water is going to boil. And so is your wash. Heating it to the point of boiling as quick as possible is what you're trying to do (with a 5.5kW element on 240VAC) right? When you get to the point of pushing steam out, dial it back. It somewhat depends on the wash, how big your boiler is, and the size of your stillhead where the "sweet spot' is.

If it were mine, I'd tell you where I run it. But it isn't...it's yours. YOU are going to have to determine where the sweet spot is...You need to gain that experience.

Some things you simply have to learn ON YOUR OWN.
ss

p.s. - Here's a hint: watch your ammeter.

edited: to remove words which apparently have caused an offense, for which NONE was intended.

[cranky]

I kind of disagree with SS about trying to get it up to temp as fast as possible. I feel that sometimes a slower heat up yields better results although I can't really prove that. I have heated plenty of washes as fast as I could with my 5500W element with no adverse effects to that element and pay no attention to the sizzling sound. Your wash/mash or whatever you want to call it may also dictate how fast you can heat up without scorching. I always let mine clear for a long time so I have never had any kind of issues. Then there is puking which can also be a problem with some washes. As far as the stills sweet spot, I agree with SS about that. Unfortunately every still runs different and it takes time to learn your equipment and where it wants to run and nobody can really do that but you.

[spiff]

You seem unable to reply without being condescending in some way. I ask legitimate questions that you barely answer but heap on a bunch of bullshit. So why don't you just shut the (retracted) up and let others answer then.


An example is overheating an element, creating gas pockets from boiling.. so learning on my own means what exactly? Possibly burning out an element and see what the difference is by running it without this noise? (retracted)

Its a great fucking question.. if the water surrounding the element is actively boiling then its limiting water contact with the element. Keeping it right before its doing this means maximum water exposure.. and as the water heats up, more amperage can be fed before you're getting bubbles off the element.

I'm looking for some actual information like.. "yeah, i went through a couple elements and noticed that keeping it dialed back a bit actually sped up heating and made the element last longer" or something similar. How hard is that?

[spiff]

I kind of disagree with SS about trying to get it up to temp as fast as possible. I feel that sometimes a slower heat up yields better results although I can't really prove that. I have heated plenty of washes as fast as I could with my 5500W element with no adverse effects to that element and pay no attention to the sizzling sound. Your wash/mash or whatever you want to call it may also dictate how fast you can heat up without scorching. I always let mine clear for a long time so I have never had any kind of issues. Then there is puking which can also be a problem with some washes. As far as the stills sweet spot, I agree with SS about that. Unfortunately every still runs different and it takes time to learn your equipment and where it wants to run and nobody can really do that but you.

Thanks Cranky.. that's useful too.. "using maximum setting and NOT having any issues"

[still_stirrin]

So spiff,

Is "name calling" how you man up? Juvenile, at best.

Get over yourself.
ss

edited to add:
Spiff, all electric elements make a noise when the water begins to heat up regardless of the wattage. Trying to keep the element silent will result in a very looooong heat up.

Heater elements will cause nucleation points for the wash (water in particular too) to boil and that will in turn create eddy currents of the liquid around the element. As long as your element is fully immersed, it should not be a problem....provided you don't have caking materials forming a covering on the element.

Also, if you over voltage an element it will try to pass too much current, and that too can lead to pre-mature failure.

Now you know....

[spiff]

Well, if you meet that definition....

[JoeyZR1]

You seem unable to reply without being condescending in some way. I ask legitimate questions that you barely answer but heap on a bunch of bullshit. So why don't you just shut the fuck up and let others answer then.


An example is overheating an element, creating gas pockets from boiling.. so learning on my own means what exactly? Possibly burning out an element and see what the difference is by running it without this noise? dickhead.

Its a great fucking question.. if the water surrounding the element is actively boiling then its limiting water contact with the element. Keeping it right before its doing this means maximum water exposure.. and as the water heats up, more amperage can be fed before you're getting bubbles off the element.

I'm looking for some actual information like.. "yeah, i went through a couple elements and noticed that keeping it dialed back a bit actually sped up heating and made the element last longer" or something similar. How fucking hard is that?

unbelievable!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cranky]

I know I am going to regret this but I have to say I think the question was legitimate and still_stirrin's answer was unnecessarily harsh (channeling the old Rad maybe?), which of course led to the OP's overreaction. Can't we just all get along and try not to belittle one another and run people off?

[still_stirrin]

....I think the question was legitimate and still_stirrin's answer was unnecessarily harsh...

I don't think my response was "harsh" at all. I can't tell spiff where the "sweet spot" for HIS boiler is...it's his, not mine. I simply said that...he's got to run it to the point of understanding his still.

Now, I CAN say how I run my boiler, even though that is not the question he asked. FYI, I run at 20 amps to start (I have two 4.5kW elements running on 120VAC for super-ultra low watt density) and dial back when it starts to produce. And I use the ammeter to tell me approximately where to dial to (not noise/boiling sounds). Of course the still configuration (potstill or reflux column) has a lot to do with what that setting is, just like the wash's composition.

If you reread my reply, perhaps you'll understand the context of my answer. I certainly did no "name calling" or swearing in my reply or the ensueing rebuttal. Apparently, mr. spiff took offense with me (more so than my answer).

ss
(taking the "high road")

[cranky]

....I think the question was legitimate and still_stirrin's answer was unnecessarily harsh...

I don't think my response was "harsh" at all. I can't tell spiff where the "sweet spot" for HIS boiler is...it's his, not mine. I simply said that...he's got to run it to the point of understanding his still.

Now, I CAN say how I run my boiler, even though that is not the question he asked. FYI, I run at 20 amps to start (I have two 4.5kW elements running on 120VAC for super-ultra low watt density) and dial back when it starts to produce. And I use the ammeter to tell me approximately where to dial to (not noise/boiling sounds). Of course the still configuration (potstill or reflux column) has a lot to do with what that setting is, just like the wash's composition.

If you reread my reply, perhaps you'll understand the context of my answer. I certainly did no "name calling" or swearing in my reply or the ensueing rebuttal. Apparently, mr. spiff took offense with me (more so than my answer).

ss
(taking the "high road")

The part of your post I take issue with is telling him to "MAN UP" This was really something I feel was uncalled for and said just to piss him off and I see the two of you had issues in a different thread.
Although a bit wordy I understand his basic question to be summed up as "will it hurt my element to use it at full power from the very start" Seemed like a simple PBA would have sufficed without commenting about his manhood.

Told you I would regret saying anything.

[spiff]

retracted...

[DAD300]

I now believe in a slower heatup period. The slower the heatup period, the more amino acids that get broken.

There is value to cooking the ferment longer. There are other posts here on this...ain't nothing new.

Reading the entire idea behind this reaction, some will say we never reach the right temperature. I say we do...while trying to heat a mash or was to 180ish F the bottom of the still or the immersed element are a lot hotter than that.

"The Maillard reaction is a chemical reaction between amino acids and reducing sugars that gives browned food its desirable flavor. Seared steaks, pan-fried dumplings, cookies and other kinds of biscuits, breads, toasted marshmallows, and many other foods undergo this reaction.

In the process, hundreds of different flavor compounds are created. These compounds, in turn, break down to form yet more new flavor compounds, and so on. Each type of food has a very distinctive set of flavor compounds that are formed during the Maillard reaction. It is these same compounds that flavor scientists have used over the years to make artificial flavors."

[rad14701]

If it's any consolation,and ends the bickering, I can produce the same sounds heating with gas as I can heating with an internal element... However, that being said, I would never start a cold boiler charge out with an internal element cranked up all the way... I prefer ramping up and then ramping back down when getting close to running temperature...

No need bickering over a couple words...

[Kegg_jam]

I prefer to apply power gently or ramp up as was mentioned. Seems like less of a jolt to the whole system.

That being said, for water I'll run it full tilt until boiling (after ramp up).

Otherwise it sort of depends on the mash or wash or low wines... But not usually as aggressive as heating water. Been playing around with longer heat ups for some things.

[Badmotivator]

I use full power, 4kw, to heat up and to distill. The noisy noise is just cavitation against the elements, right? No problem. As the mixture approaches a full boil the noise reduces naturally because vapor bubbles don't recondense and collapse as violently in a near-boil environment.

I can't speak to the idea that slow heating causes beneficial chemical changes in the wash.

When we talk about "sweet spots", shouldn't we have to define what the problems are on either side of them? For example, run too slow and you will notice (something), too fast and you will notice (something different), so hit that sweet spot between them and it will (something something).

[Kegg_jam]

Good idea Badmo.

A SweetSpot for me during a run is whatever setting doesn't cause flooding for reflux runs or puking on stripping runs on the high end.

And too low won't load plates or cause enough reflux action get the ABV up on reflux runs.

And some argue too low causes smearing but I don't have any experience with that.

[thumper123]

All this sweetspot stuff hit me all at once recently. I was using a 750W hotplate with the thermostat bypassed and the element touching the bottom of my 4 gallon pot, I had used this setup for years until I could no longer buy that particular hot plate ( I've burned out a few). So I bought an 1100W unit and ran it the same way which caused me problems - it ran my setup too fast. My starting distillate after foreshots and heads which normally started at 150 proof went down to 138 proof. Sure, I got the job done a whole lot faster, but I like to barrel at 130 proof and my runs were averaging 120 since I start gathering tails at 100 proof. So now I'm looking at voltage control as the answer to the speed problem. For me, I hit that sweetspot by chance long ago, but now that I've had a problem, I'll never take it for granted again. The big unknown here is what would have happened to quality if I had continued with high heat and speed - I don't really want to know - I and others love my bourbon just the way it is.