Legalizing Hobby Distilling in the US

[Brewhaus]

Thank you, wv_cooker! That was very well said, and brought a smile to my face. I am going four directions, as are several others, trying to make sure that the HDA things are taken care of in order to give us the best chance at success. It is comments like yours that help us to know that we are doing the right thing and for the right reasons.

[rad14701]

Sometimes it takes voicing alternate views on things just so the powers that be are made aware that there actually are alternate points of views that may make more sense than those they have believed until now... Not speaking up, no matter how, simply makes humans into sheeple... There is no good or bad dialog as long as it makes people think...

[googe]

Would looking at stats from countries that it's legalized in help the cause any?, referring to crimes related to being legal, tax losses, community problems, social. Included all issues these countries have but focus and highlight the positives?. Just a thought. Keep up the good work, very proud of those standing up to be counted

[MoonBreath]

I would also like to think/thank this site along with the parent site for upping the bar and bringing the best intellectual channel available ..Now people learn and use good equipment, combined with
site learned proper technique with top notch advice ..
With that said, the feds are noticing nicer equipment, educated knowledgeable distillers.
All more better for the long fight ..The clandestine, poorly made, un-safe junk is what will hurt our ultimate goal ..
Don't make likker half assed stupid, leave it alone so when they come visit (with a warrant) you won't give them fuel for Their fire.
My rig is well thought out,professional in appearance, and safe ..
All because of HD! Thank Everyone Here! Good Luck.

[Prairiepiss]

I would like to point out. That if there hadn't been some alternate views posted in this thread. It would have more then likely fell off the radar. Just like his threads did last time. Those alternate views got people to speak up. And others to actually stick around a post. And brought a few new people. It got everyone thinking. And helped some decide what they needed to do.

You can't just silence peoples opinions. They need or should be addressed and worked through. Instead of saying get the hell out the thread. I think its a good indication of why HDA may or maynot be getting the support you want and or need. And shows what needs to happen to get more support.

Now my personal opinion is that the whole George Washington angle. Is not one I would use. It would just be something else that could be turned around and used against the cause. To me its just a manipulation of a partial truth. To sell something. Are we now making late night infomercials?

But wait! There's more!

Facts are a much better angle. That can't be refuted. Or turned against the cause.

When someone shoves something or someone like George Washington in my face. To try to get my support. I walk the other way. Just like when I go right by those channels with infomercials on.

[S-Cackalacky]

I can't help but think that some of what Cooker and others said is directed toward me (and others of a like mind). I DO WANT TO SEE HOBBY LEVEL DISTILLATION LEGALIZED! My argument with the whole approach here is the all or nothing attitude. Unlike some, I don't want to set myself up to be a martyr to a hobby. I'm willing to put A NAME on the HDA membership list, pay my $30 membership fee to help fund the cause, write anonymous letters to politicians, drop off brochures, or whatever. If I don't wish to throw caution to the wind, that's my perogative. If you expect all or nothing from everyone here, I'm sure you'll get nothing for the most part and this whole thing will die on the vine. I believe the "all in" group here are the ones choking the effort and if you can't see that, this whole effort is doomed to failure. Let's get on with it and stop the self righteous preaching. Do you think more than a few here will do anything to assist in this effort. This is a forum of 22,000 individuals and I would bet my last dollar that the majority could give a shit. So, maybe it would be best to take what you can get and focus your energies on getting it done.

[wv_cooker]

Not pointing fingers at anyone S-Cack just trying to make the point that along with freedom of speech folks also have the freedom of choice. No one has to join the HDA and shouldn't feel as they have to. I just feel that the discussions need to be how can we help and what are good ideas to get this going? Not everyone will or should go public. But everyone can come up with ideas that might help.

[FullySilenced]

As long as its constructive.... not destructive...

[S-Cackalacky]

Cooker, in your previous post you said,

I realize that in this great country of ours along with free speech we also have the right to freedom of choice. Why is it that some try to disrupt everything that goes on in this thread out of self fear.

Those two sentences contradict each other. I'm not trying to disrupt ANYTHING and I don't think a lot of others are either. I want to help, but ever since Rick and Tom came on here, they seem to have this very narrow point of view that if you don't give us your name, this won't work. I personally don't agree with that logic. Movements are successful because individuals are willing to give what they can in whatever way that they can. Not everyone here, including myself, is willing to take a bullet to legallize a hobby. And, I really don't appreciate being demeaned for making that choice.

[FullySilenced]

S-Cackalacky
As a moderator you should step back and let the members do the talking rather than be the focus yourself....

if someone steps out of line then you should step in otherwise your an observer...

That's my opinion...

FS

[goose eye]

Naw sandlapper think he was sayin bout my comment.
Anytime you fixing to go into battle and them in charge
don't tell you bout ROE you might wanna look it up yourself
an start questioning. I could give a rats ass if you like
my comment or not hate to see some blindly following getin jammed up.

You want to talk bout vested intrest we can start another topic.

So I'm tole

[wv_cooker]

Cooker, in your previous post you said,

I realize that in this great country of ours along with free speech we also have the right to freedom of choice. Why is it that some try to disrupt everything that goes on in this thread out of self fear.

Those two sentences contradict each other. I'm not trying to disrupt ANYTHING and I don't think a lot of others are either. I want to help, but ever since Rick and Tom came on here, they seem to have this very narrow point of view that if you don't give us your name, this won't work. I personally don't agree with that logic. Movements are successful because individuals are willing to give what they can in whatever way that they can. Not everyone here, including myself, is willing to take a bullet to legallize a hobby. And, I really don't appreciate being demeaned for making that choice.

I believe I stated to you in a previous post that I was not pointing fingers at anyone, I was simply trying to make a point that no one should feel as if they had to do anything. However it does seem that every time someone makes a post that differs from your belief you get personal and point fingers at them for not having your beliefs. I am just saying that this thread should be about ways to help and make this effective. I understand the fear factor as we all are doing something illegal and comes with consequences if we are caught.

I also can't see how freedom of speech and freedom of choice in one sentence and voicing a personal opinion in another is a contradiction in terms. But I am not a very educated man.

[rad14701]

The movement will proceed forward regardless of what is discussed here, or how... Many folks have lingering concerns that they may not be comfortable with potentially leading the conversation in their direction... If it gets close at some point they might be more inclined to interject rather than remain silent... Twists and turns are a good thing because we think and rethink... And we show the world that we debate this seriously...

[FullySilenced]

you still got some of it Rad.... don't think your done quite yet...

[googe]

If a partition eg" is lodged, and the subject of the partition is looked into seriously, do they not check names, to see if it's legit?. I'd hate to see something go so far and be lost because it's a false claim and cause more negativity. Am I understanding this right?.

[wv_cooker]

A petition is usually verified by at least a certain percentage, but it will take much more than a list of names to win this.

[googe]

Thought so cooker, was just touching on, it needs to be honest and real to get any impact, the people who make these laws don't need any negative ammo.

[emptyglass]

From where I am, it wont make much difference to our laws weather its legalised or not, but if you guys are successful, it would be a great start for us.
To be able to site to our politicians that the hobby is now legal in the US would have a big sway.

Personally, I applaud Rick and Toms efforts. Weather the execution of their efforts is going to work or not, I cant say, but hats off to them for giving it a go. They'll either break or break through.

[Snuffy-ga]

I am a noob at this but I feel like an army has many different tools to win the battle. While I feel I don't want to use one tool I am willing to use a different one. The use of all the tools win the battle. I will be independently sending letters to my congressional representatives so that when the lobbies approach them they will already have a heads up on the situation. I also feel that greed will play a role in the legalization. I will be glad to pay a $100 per year fee for my hobby license. This will bring additional revenue to the states, satisfy us and open up the route for additional jobs in our state by making micro distilleries possible. During the depression when folks were starving the saying "more than one way to skin a cat" came about. There is more than one angle on this little problem.

[Bushman]

I am at the ADI conference and we have some TTB agents here that have sat in and discussed laws for distilling, labeling, etc. and it amazes me how many people here are thinking about opening a distillery and yet are very open in conversations with strangers about currently distilling out of their garage and they are all walking around with conference badges with there names on them.

[S-Cackalacky]

Where to start? First, me being a Mod doesn't preclude my participation in discussions on the forums. That's an interesting ploy - to use my status as a moderator to try to silence my opinion.

Second, the only objection I have to this whole thing is the insistence some here seem to have that it is absolutely necessary for people to put their REAL names on the HDA membership list. It's my opinion that THAT is a foolhardy thing to do. And, I seem to be viewed as contrary and unyielding for having that opinion. There seems to be a very demeaning attitude toward myself and others who have that same opinion. I'm not here putting down the movement - I just don't agree with the elitist few here that think I need to be all in or get the fuck out of the way.

Third, I don't know why some are insisting on thinking that joining HDA is equivalent to signing a petition. It's not a petition, it's a membership to an organization that supports the legalization of Home Distillation. It is NOT a petition and carries no weight as anything resembling a petition. Every time someone comes to this forum and asks that members here sign a real petition, they are pretty much brushed off and sent on their way with the reason that no one here will reveal themselves by putting their real name on a petition. Sorry folks, I don't understand why some here believe that the success of legalization hinges on me (and others) putting our real names on a membership list.

Lastly, I'll just ask this question - To participate in the movement to legalize home distillation, do I need to provide my real name on the HDA membership list? If the answer is YES, I'm out and you will here nothing more from me. Good luck to you all.

[RandyMarshCT]

I apologize for using George Washington as an example. Clearly I was wrong.

[woodshed]

S-Cackalacky
As a moderator you should step back and let the members do the talking rather than be the focus yourself....

if someone steps out of line then you should step in otherwise your an observer...

That's my opinion...

FS

As a moderator I see this opinion as out of line so I am stepping in.
We Mods are members here by choice and were asked to volunteer as a Mod.

I for one will participate in ANY damn thread I want to concern myself with and will not "step back" simply because I am a Mod or because I want more answers or question the approach of the effort.

Maybe we should start a thread allowing those with concerns about the effort. It should be titled

We are concerned about the HDA. IF you support them your voice is not wanted here so "step back". Better yet, just go away.

That's my opinion...

[Brewhaus]

Second, the only objection I have to this whole thing is the insistence some here seem to have that it is absolutely necessary for people to put their REAL names on the HDA membership list.

I apologize if I have given that impression. While I certainly urge people to use their real information so that the list is not viewed as inaccurate, or worse, downright falsified, if it is every checked, I certainly have no control over that. Do I think that anyone will check the validity of the names on the list? Not unless something stands out making it appear to be false.
We also have an option for members to be listed as 'silent', meaning that their name and address will not be given to the lobbyist. They still receive membership privileges, but will be 'anonymous' on the list. We will only use your state to show the number of people in a given state. Basically, we will list each person individually, with a number for those that are 'silent' in addition.

Lastly, I'll just ask this question - To participate in the movement to legalize home distillation, do I need to provide my real name on the HDA membership list?

As noted above, we are not about to validate everyone's information. We want the list to be accurate, but I doubt that it will ever be challenged. However, the size of the list will most definitely make a difference to our legislators, which is why I am urging people to sign up, and to get friends and family that support the changes to sign up. The list is not just of those who distill, but of those who would be interested in pursuing the hobby, or simply feel that we should have the legal freedom to do it in the privacy of our own home for personal use.

For those that have suggested "there is more than one way to skin a cat" I completely agree. We pushed for people to contact their representatives for the past year, and continue to do so. Doing so will only help our cause. The reason that the HDA has chosen the route that it has is based on what we have learned over the past year and from speaking to our representatives offices. They have suggested that this is the most effective option, but nobody here is suggesting that it is the only option, or that other methods be abandoned.

[wv_cooker]

I will try my best to explain my thoughts, right or wrong S-Cack. It is my understanding that when you sign up as a member of the HDA that your information will go on a list and given to the lobbyist to be shown to the politicians, which would make it a form of petition. At some point if it is taken seriously a percentage of the names on the list will probably be verified in the form of a phone call from some intern. If there are false names on the list it will lose credibility.

So that brings us to choice, it is up to each individual to decide whether being on a list that will be shown to politicians is right for them. If you feel it is a detriment to you or your family then it is perfectly all right not to sign up and have your information out there.

After that what can help? Anonymous letters and information sent to congressmen will show that folks at least have this issue on their minds, and that the issue is valid. So there are other things that can be done other than putting your name on a list. I for one have just been trying to say that this is perfectly fine and joining the HDA and having your information out there is not for everyone.

Personally I feel that it will take much more than a list to move congress to do anything. So my point is what can we all do to make sure that the movement is recognized as a serious issue that needs attention from the politicians? I am working on all of my friends and friends of my family that have nothing to do with distilling whatsoever to sign up as supporters. These folks have no ties to distilling whatsoever, most don't even drink, but they are legitimate names that are showing support of their beliefs and our cause. My name on the list is just my personal choice and has nothing to do with any one else's choice. Each individual must make that choice for themselves.

The true fact of the matter is this thread should be about what else can we do outside of signing up on a list to help with the cause? No one needs to be left out as this is very important to all of us in the hobby. I agree with Rad and the rest that even derogatory discussions at least show interest and that we can all discuss this matter intelligently. There will be a time when the ones that won't want it legal will chime in and we must be prepared to discuss the reasoning intelligently or we will get a butt kicking. I really hope this helps settle your mind that you don't have to be on a list to be involved!

[RandyMarshCT]

The movement will proceed forward regardless of what is discussed here, or how... Many folks have lingering concerns that they may not be comfortable with potentially leading the conversation in their direction... If it gets close at some point they might be more inclined to interject rather than remain silent... Twists and turns are a good thing because we think and rethink... And we show the world that we debate this seriously...

This is the core of what (I'm hoping) everyone should be getting from this thread. Please put aside the angry positioning and personal attacks. I respect everyone's opinion here, regardless of whether they are aligned with mine or not. I think it's safe to say that we all want the same thing here: the right to enjoy our hobby without the risk of legal consequences. That means we're all on the same team. Some can get involved fully or partially. Some can not. It doesn't change the fact that a positive outcome will benefit us all. I made the mistake of using G.W. as an example. The reaction I received showed me that this was a bad angle. I didn't get mad that anyone "shot me down". I'm pleased that other intelligent people gave me informed feedback. This helps me avoid making our group look stupid by putting out weak or incorrect information under the HDA's name. In this regard, even if someone isn't in a position to join the association but gave me feedback... they're helping the cause. It makes us all look better as a group and benefits the whole community. It's best to keep this as a discussion rather than an argument. For every person who posts on this thread, there are at least 100 other people who will read it and not post.

I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm asking.

[FullySilenced]

@Woodshed and @S-Cackalacky

As mod and persons in a "Power Position" it is your job to oversee to direct and in cases teach....

Not to lecture of force your point of view down everyone's throat..

Not to bring negativity to most every idea or concept that's ventured in a thread you don't approve of...

If you don't like the concept don't participate in it... let others with more open minds move forward and develop a plan that could bring this to fruition...

STEP BACK "Observe" and let others move forward...

[SoMo]

Have you guys ever participated in a true petition? Where I live names are verified and it must be notarized to be valid. There is a difference in a membership in a group or club and a petition. You said S-Cack should step away from discussion because he's a mod kinda shady there. I've tried getting folks not distilling to sign up and none would do it for fear of home raids on suspicion. Someone I asked who has visited the site and thread pointed out something that's not been mentioned, the conflict of interest involving Brewhaus, who would benefit the most financially from this possible legislation. I also mentioned someone look into how Missouri got the laws changed to allow it here, that was met with negativity although it was passed here on the state level by the very people you are asking to support this cause. There is a plan that has worked positively to advance this hobby but you turn a blind eye to it. It seems it's a my way or get lost kinda deal, dividing rather than uniting, just my thoughts and observations, good luck.

[Brewhaus]

SoMo- I fail to see a conflict of interest by Brewhaus being involved. All manufacturers, distributors, and retailers of distillation equipment would stand to gain, of which I am just one. There is no argument there. All hobby distillers stand to gain, as well. I am also the one set up to lose the most if we are not successful as I am the only one backing the entire cost above what we see in HDA dues. How is this a conflict of interest? If I were just a member, like the retailers that have signed up, would that remove the conflict?? Given that we have not received enough in dues to even cover the 3-month minimum contract with the lobbyist, it would have resulted in this being yet another non-starter.

Someone needed to take the helm and get a strong push going. I have the same goals as each individual hobbyist. The only difference is that I have both personal and business reasons to see it through.

[googe]

I apologize if my comments about a petition we're taken the wrong way, I was using it as an example that names get checked, and could lead to the wrong out come. Forget who's aloud to say what they want to say on this subject and use that energy for the cause. Over and out...Roger.