Why I'm Tired of the CM Hating

[heynonny]

I too use a CM still and after putting it on a 1/4 keg (7.75g) and managing to stuff a few scrubbing pads between the 2 cross tubes, & well insulating the column to takeoff point, I assembled a welding regulator unit with added output 'TEE' and valve to a 0 to 5 psi gauge (I can make FINE adjustments, in the 2 -3 oz. range) to maintain steady temp at top of column. So I guess its a TM still. (temp management) I wonder what I'll hear from that comment. The 1st liter or so comes out at honest 94%, then steady 93% till temp (quickly) rises and % drops. Dialing things in at the beginning takes a bit of time adjusting, but once stablized, it dosent take too much to keep it going true.
Here I will say: If I didnt have one, I now probably wouldnt build one, now, but, I have the makings for a VM unit I havent touched in 1 1/2 years, 'cause what I have works well, WELL.

-hey-

[Odin]

Heynony, I don't use scrubbers as packing, but small lava stones. They conduct more of the cooling provided by the through tubing. Gives me a steady 95%+ all the time! Odin.

[LWTCS]

Heynony, I don't use scrubbers as packing, but small lava stones. They conduct more of the cooling provided by the through tubing. Gives me a steady 95%+ all the time! Odin.

Really? What size Odin? Half the size of say,,,,,a raisin?

[Kifi]

Heynony, I don't use scrubbers as packing, but small lava stones. They conduct more of the cooling provided by the through tubing. Gives me a steady 95%+ all the time! Odin.

Really? What size Odin? Half the size of say,,,,,a raisin?

Yeah, dish Odin. I want some of this too. Where do you get it from?

[Odin]

Hi there!

More than willing to share my experience with you!

The size of the stones I use is more like thwice as big as raisins. And you can just buy them at your local garden shop (I guess). You know, at the section where they sell all kinds of sands and stones to decorate your garden with. Just go for the smallest lava stones. Lava means the stone has been superheated and will not in any way be affected buy temps we distill at. And they will not "hold on" to anything, since they are not porous (in other words: they have no small holes in it).

After distilling, just rince with boiling water and ready to go again. One thing you might want to make sure is that the stones are small enough to go past your through tubing. Because of the through tubing ,there is not too much space for the stones to pass by.

If you have got one of those "neanderthal" CM reflux stills like I do, with one tube at 1/3 and the other just under the take off point in your column, fill the column up untill 1 centimeters above the highest through tube. "Neanderthal"? Haha, I just made, in 3 hours time, another 2.25 litres of 96% pure! And just for fun: any of the LM guys achieve this purity at this rate? 1 1/2 inch column diameter, 100 centimeters tall, 1,500 watt hot plate running at 2/3 capacity, 1 litre of cooling water per minute. CM rules Well, if you take a few things in consideration!Most importantly: no open packing, but dense, heat/cold sensitive packing, like glass or stone.

I will try to make some pictures and post them. Not a computer kinda guy, so how to do this, I do not know yet! I do know I am enjoying a great gin right now. Hell, it's half past 9 (in the evening) over here!

Odin.

[rad14701]

Just want to clear the air here on the original post which has nearly started a shit storm here in this topic...

Folks here have been accused of forming opinions, of which I am sure I am one, based only on second hand rather than first hand experience... Yes, this is true... However, most times these opinions are based on multiple experiences by others, many of whom were looking to resolve ongoing issues...

Turbo Yeast: We have had far more people asking questions about why their turbo washes smelled and tasted terrible, even after using fining agents and activated carbon... And even members with experience in fermentation and distillation have had the same problems... So the fact remains that more often than not people have issues with turbo yeasts and novices are bound to have an even greater incidence of problems...

CM Columns: Sure they can be made to work adequately in experienced hands... However, statements made by folks selling them that they are by far the simplest to run and give extraordinary results are simply alluring sales hype... Again, in experienced hands a properly designed CM can produce great spirits... The actual CM design plays a big part... Trying to keep the amount of coolant needed to a minimum is another issue because they require more cooling than most LM and VM designs... And then there is the issue of centering rings which has been discussed and experimented with in recent months and proven to increase overall performance...

And then there are the inaccuracies stated in the initial post, perhaps based more on opinion than experience, that LM and VM columns are somehow dangerous and might explode even after post after post in topic after topic makes mention of always providing an adequate vent to the atmosphere... And lets not forget the statement about decreased efficiency as the run progresses which effects all still types, even CM's and not just LM's...

I won't pick further but I'll agree with blanikdog that this is a silly thread... It isn't fairly comparing anything against anything but, rather, mere generalizations... Some CM designs are better than others just like some CM designs, VM designs, and Pot Stills, are better than others... Without comparing and discussing specifics we're just trying to churn up a 4th. of July weekend pissing match...

Anyone wanting to discuss the best design features of a specific CM column, go for it... I'd like nothing better than to participate in a worthwhile discussion about how to develop the best simple and inexpensive CM column design... Otherwise this topic has pretty much played itself out from my multiple points of view...

[mash rookie]

At the risk of repeating myself, I repectfuly dissagree with you Rad. I dont think it is a pissing match at all. Just a freindly exchange of opinions. If you do not believe the discussion should be in this section of the foum than please move it to off topic where the posters can debate its value.

What a silly thread.

its simple BD. Sometimes we just want to talk about things. The only thing wrong with this thread is that maybe it should be moved to off topic.

I also have noted that CM rigs get a bad wrap. Heck, I like them. Hell, I love all designs. They all have a place here.

Have you seen the wild stuff that Myles builds? Is that cool?

This thread is nothing more than friendly banter among smart guys with different opinions.


Sometimes the value is in the opinion exchanges and what we learn about each other.
MR

[/quote]

And yes, Your opinion is welcome too.

MR

[Kifi]

And then there are the inaccuracies stated in the initial post, perhaps based more on opinion than experience, that LM and VM columns are somehow dangerous and might explode even after post after post in topic after topic makes mention of always providing an adequate vent to the atmosphere... And lets not forget about statement about decreased efficiency as the run progresses which effects all still types, even CM's and not just LM's...

Rad - to your point about facts - noone ever suggested LMs were dangerous, I acknowleged your point about VM safety already, and LMs (unlike CMs and VMs) DO have a decreasing reflux ratio during the course of the run. The Compleat Distiller talks all about that when comparing the 3 types of columns. CMs and VMs drop liquid output instead of reducing reflux ratio.

But the point of the thread is less about which one is best, and more about how CM isn't really as bad as we make it out to be. I think it's been a useful discussion.

[blind drunk]

I'm a dullard when it comes to this stuff, and this thread has really helped me love my CM!!

Cheers, bd.

[rad14701]

The Compleat Distiller talks all about that when comparing the 3 types of columns. CMs and VMs drop liquid output instead of reducing reflux ratio.

Again, depends on the design... Perhaps back when The Compleat Distiller was written we didn't have as many design options for LM and VM... It's nice to know that we are still progressing... Whod'a thunk we'd have people building and running "flutes"...

[blind drunk]

What would happen if one added a reflux coil atop a CM? The take off would be sandwiched between the two cooling systems.

[Prairiepiss]

What would happen if one added a reflux coil atop a CM? The take off would be sandwiched between the two cooling systems.

Like a VM on top of a CM?

[LWTCS]

Like a VM on top of a CM?

Thought Myles did that already?

I was figgerin on doing something similar for heads take off to prevent contamination of my precious precious thumper juice. But i'm plumb out of ceiling height.

[Prairiepiss]

Thought Myles did that already?

I was figgerin on doing something similar for heads take off to prevent contamination of my precious precious thumper juice. But i'm plumb out of ceiling height.

Cut a hole in the ceiling.

[LWTCS]

Cut a hole in the ceiling.

Swut OD said too.

You fellers gonna git me in big trouble with mama.

[The Baker]

Get a wide, short boiler.

Use electric if you are now on propane.

Use a cross-flow condenser (or have you got that obsolete model with the cross-tubes in the column?)

[LWTCS]

Get a wide, short boiler.

Working on a variant of that recommendation.

Use electric if you are now on propane.

Done.

Use a cross-flow condenser (or have you got that obsolete model with the cross-tubes in the column?)

Oh thats not my still,,,,,,,,at all.

[blind drunk]

What would happen if one added a reflux coil atop a CM? The take off would be sandwiched between the two cooling systems.

Like a VM on top of a CM?

What would that accomplish is what I want to know. Just one take off port. Nothing too fancy. I've been thinking that to myself but I have no clue Oh, and type real slow so that I can understand what the frick you're saying

[myles]

snuffy has done a lot of work on this sort of thing. IMO if you are going to combine columns then it makes sense to put the CM head right at the very top. The real forte of the CM is that you can adjust it to let stuff get passed it. Typically this means the heads.

Mount the CM head over a VM head and you have a nice versatile combination. Bleed the heads out through the CM section, restabilise and run the hearts out through the VM. Let it auto shutdown before the tails and switch off leaving them in the boiler to be thrown out.

I don't think it is worth the energy to recover the tails on a column - it is cheaper just to make a new fermentation.

[blind drunk]

Thanks.

[Odin]

Blind drunk, why not put the CM cross tubing a bit lower in the column? Even under your packing? Like that you knock out a lot of water vapour at once. Only gasses very rich on alcohol would get up and be recondensed by means of VM. IMHO this might mean you get: a. a higher purity; b.faster distillation (vm valve can be opened wider) without compromizing on purity; c. lesser change on choking your column, because water vapour is knocked back to the boiler. Putting a cross tube just under the take off point ... I am not sure what this would add to the already in place VM cooling: everything is just sent down the column. Might be difficult to manage. Odin.

[Husker]

Blind drunk, why not put the CM cross tubing a bit lower in the column? Even under your packing? Like that you knock out a lot of water vapour at once. Only gasses very rich on alcohol would get up and be recondensed by means of VM. IMHO

Odin, You do post quite a bit, but it is obvious, you are lacking somewhat in fundamental knowledge of exactly what is happening within a distillation apparatus.

This comment "Like that you knock out a lot of water vapour at once" is made by people who do not know, but thinking that they know what goes on during distillation.

You do not knock water out of the vapor. You condense THE vapor that is rising past the condenser at this moment. You are NOT making the vapor any richer in ABV. What is happing in the situation you mention here, is you are simply reducing the flow of vapor, reducing it's volume and speed significantly, but adding NOTHING to the process by placing that condenser tube low.

This is one of the main reasons why the CM gets such a bad name. People that do not understand the process, yet make a still design, and they post it far and wide, and unfortunately it 'catches' and that design is replicated over and over again.

Odin, if for you, this works so much better, then why not simply not use that lower tube,
cut your power in half (or 1/3), and you will get the same results.

The reason why condensing at the top (or as near as you can get it), and the liquid is returned to the column packing 'appears' to strip out the water, and promote the ethanol up in the column, is because that returned liquid is again re-boiled on the way down, but only partly reboiled. The water may never reach boiling temperatures, and will fall back into the boiler. The lower boiling temp product will be able to reboil. This process happens 100's or 1000's of times in a continual manner within the packing during the still run. Thus, the most volatile product rises up the column, and the water falls out the bottom, and within the packing, there is a 'gradient' that forms.

If you condense below the packing, then yippie. You have condensed the vapor, and done so ONE time. All that you have achieved is to re-add this back into the boiler, and waste the power input you put into the boiler. Possibly a super tiny percentage will reboil as it falls through the hotter rising vapor at the top of the boiler, but that is not enough to be significant in any manner at all.

H.

[rad14701]

Husker is 100% correct... The reason people come here pissing and moaning about how terrible a time they have with the "World Class Home Distillation Apparatus" is because they don't understand the theory of reflux distillation so they don't know they are building a piece of shit... It's just that simple...

Now, Odin, you do have some interesting posts regarding the history of some of the various spirits and such but I think you fall into the category of people not fully understanding reflux distillation... What works for you doesn't mean you understand the theory or should be rendering advice... I don't mean to sound condescending, that's just how I see it... All of the various types of reflux/fractionating distillation theories are described here in these forums and once you read about them you should be fully aware of why that lower tube in a CM column is a hindrance... Husker explained most of the theory quite well compared to how I have seen it described on some of the still plan sites...

[yankeeclear]

This is better than watching Jerry Springer!

...well, ok, most things are

[rad14701]

This is better than watching Jerry Springer!

...well, ok, most things are

If only we could purge the internet of that piss poor design touted to be a "World Class Home Distillation Apparatus" we would have far less problems here in these forums... There are far better CM designs for those who truly want one... But that design is always fighting against itself as well as the person trying to run it... My blood boils every time I see another novice registering here after having already constructed one and having problems running it...

[yankeeclear]

As a new comer to the pursuit I am soaking it all in. Based on my "education", I opted to begin with a pot still head, followed by a VM column. The vast majority of opinions I have read are that the evolution of the reflux has favored the LM/VM designs and that has helped guide my decision.

When you have been combing through the forums as I have it is refreshing to come across a spirited discussion as this one and I do not mean to belittle the views expressed.

[myles]

There are far better CM designs for those who truly want one...

And THAT is something that we should be letting people know

There are better CM designs about and some of them are very good at what they do. It is also true to say that they are generally not a good first time still. During the run they need constant attention and you need to adjust your coolant flows dependent on the vapour composition in the still at that moment in time.

I am not going to get into discussion about the design commonly seen, as either things have moved on since it was first published or it just wasn't particuly well concieved. Regardless of that the important thing is that today there are better options available.

[olddog]

Bear in mind, the Flute design is basically a CM column. But it is radically different to the "World class"unit.


OD

[hackware]

This is better than watching Jerry Springer!

...well, ok, most things are

If only we could purge the internet of that piss poor design touted to be a "World Class Home Distillation Apparatus" we would have far less problems here in these forums... There are far better CM designs for those who truly want one... But that design is always fighting against itself as well as the person trying to run it... My blood boils every time I see another novice registering here after having already constructed one and having problems running it...

perhaps a short locked sticky topic in the noob area...

what to do if you have a "World Class Home Distillation Apparatus"...

[Odin]

Hi guys, thank you very much for trying not to be condensenting with me. Must be a challenge! Yes, I do get what you are saying about how refluxing actually works. And my sugestion was off course way to much of a short cut explenation of what might be happening in a CM still. And yes CM's stay a shitty design, especially the ones with a cross tube down in your column. If everybody is saying it, there must be truth in it. But somehow, mine just works so well! Now I've been trying to theoritisize about it: how does this come? What do I do different, what does my rig does differently to defy all odds? I am not looking for "you see, I was right!"(eventhough after hearing another remark like "you have a shitty design", feelings like that dó emerge ). I am trying to find an explanation on how it is possible that with a Neanderthal rig, small lava stones as packing (completely contrary to whatever you can read on this forum about scrubbers and "open" packing) I distill at a complete fractionating level, reaching azeotrope percentages and distilling (if needed) twice, thrice as fast as others seem to do. Now (and here I will try not to be condensenting) it seems I do things that defy all the theories I can read about (and did read about) for ages on this forum (and thank all you for that, I love to read and re-read). An "explanation" as to how things "really work" and lecturing me about not knowing (enough) about what I am talking off are fine. Or actually, they are fine when I understand what makes my way work. The challenge I would like to set is: can I inspire or motivate all you guys who know so much more than I do to come up with an explanation. Mine seems to be invalid, but the results show otherwise. Or maybe I am just looking for discussions with people who want to find out things, compare things, develop, etc. From that perspective the answer "shitty design" and "understand distilling better" are somewhat disappointing (eventhough I apreciate the effort). But that, I realize, says as much about me as it does about anything. I hope this forum is a mutual investigation and not about some guys explaining to everybody else what is the only way things work. That would at least not be what I am looking for. Now I will let this topic rest and see what comes out of it. Hopefully a lot more learning experiences. Shit, I actually also wanted to start discussing how bad "turbo's" really are. But I think it is better not to. Might get a price on my head. Odin.