Lets Talk Column Packing

[mash rookie]

Thursday I will run two test batches.

I bought the roll of stainless steel wool yesterday. It took about ½ of a $100 roll to tightly pack the 4” glass column. I bought the coarse grade. After packing, I removed it and soaked it in a 20% citric acid solution for a couple of hours to etch the surface. I was conservative there. Today I will closely compare it with the roll to make sure I have dulled the surface enough for good static retention. If not I will make a stronger soulution and re pickle.


Lava rock. This stuff was difficult to crush. I gave up after a few minutes and screened it into three sizes. It is larger than I want but what the hell. I wasn’t going to try this anyway. Today I will wash it well and finish sorting to size. I will make three rings. 4” OD x 3-1/2 ID to counter wall affect channeling.
Lava packing will installed starting with finer material at the base, centering ring, medium material, centering ring, coarse material and centering ring.

I will post pictures later today of both products.

Google identifies Pumice as high silica lava rock. Can it be sourced in a small size?

[Odin]

Okay, wow, you are on your way. All most at least. Good luck on your trials! Really curious as to the outcomes.

Sorry to ask again, but what is the goal? You want to reach a higher abv? Faster take-off rates? Better seperation of heads 'n tailes? Perfect neutral?

"Pickling", so you are etching like SPP? Or am I missing the point?

On lava rock: if you buy it (the porous version), you can easily cut it into smaller bits. Most garden centers have them. The kind that is used for water retention. Like you trow in some water in a plant and then go on holidays. Heat retention is low though.

I would advise to do some preliminary tests on it, since they do sorta "inflate" (sorry, not the right word), just to be sure you don't get blockages in the vapour path. Because - depending on the variety - they can soak up liquid and actually grow a bit in size. Especially when heated.

Good luck!

Odin.

[mash rookie]

Odin, Please read page one.


Hey guys, Here is the stainless steel wool roll. I am soaking the portion that I cut for my column in citric acid again. It still had a pretty good shine to it. It is a coarse wool but much finer than scrubbers.

The lava rock has been sized to 1" - 3/4" and 1/2"

[mash rookie]

I am going to have to change plans. I had decided to load the lava first for half of my BW then switch to stainless packing to complete the BW and run my UJ that is ready to go.
I dont have complete confidence in the lava. I have much confidence in the stainless wool.
My darn BW is not finished. I will switch back to stainless and run my UJ tomorrow. I will leave everything set up and run my BW when it finishes in a few days switching to lava the second half of the batch.

[thecroweater]

Is there any reason coke (Coal) couldn't be used . its ultra porous , would have an unbelievable surface area and doesn't seem to absorb anything unlike scoria and pumice , never heard of anyone using it though . just chucKing ideas around in my head for a packed section on a trayed still for neutrals

[rad14701]

Is there any reason coke (Coal) couldn't be used . its ultra porous , would have an unbelievable surface area and doesn't seem to absorb anything unlike scoria and pumice , never heard of anyone using it though . just chucKing ideas around in my head for a packed section on a trayed still for neutrals

It might work well once all of the sulfur smell is washed out of it... I used it for hydroponics growing years ago...

[mash rookie]

I should have been posting here and will paste my tests results here. I have tested the stainless wool and lava rock. I hit 96% with the lava rock yesterday at 1500ml an hr. 93%-95% was rocket fast.

[mash rookie]

TEST RESULTS. ...4" W/ STAINLESS WOOL PACKING
I diluted all distillate 200-300 % and used everything but heads. Boiler BP 185 f. Previous test were 195 f on first batch, 185f with feints.
There was a clear difference in performance after pickling the wool in acid until dull. I was able to control as I had speculated many weeks ago. Vapor speed = ABV.
After similar reflux period of 30 minutes, similar cooling settings, 20 amps. Heads were escaping at 94%. I slowly took 750 ml of heads at 93-94%. Then 1500ml of hearts at 91% in 23 minutes.
NOW WE ARE TALKING.

I was having fun. Once my reflux condenser and product condenser were dialed in I decided to play with power input only.
I reduced power input to 18 amps and took 750 ml of hearts at 93% in 30 minutes. Slower but right up there on ABV. This is closer to my speculated performance. Slowing vapor speed raised ABV as expected.

I went crazy and raised power to 22 amps and collected 3000ml 89-90% in 30 minutes. WOW.
I then reduced power to 16 amps. No flow. Increased to 17 amps, No flow. Increased to 18 amps and take off shot back to 93%. Getting bored watching 93% I said screw it and let her rip at 24 amps.
It pissed like a race horse. 3000ml in 25 minutes at 87% before heading into the tails. WOW

After this, I am more interested than ever in running the lava rock with its dull porous surface.
I promptly pickled the remainder of my stainless roll with anticipation of running my six inch column at low vapor speed.

TEST RESULTS SIX INCH
Here is a great example of reflux ratio. I failed to create a high enough reflux ratio yesterday when running my six inch. 24 amps would not provide enough vapor speed to maintain a sufficient reflux ratio. Tightly packed with stainless wool and using the same condenser tree it ran slower than my four inch and would only produce up to 88%. I am not surprised. I will run it on a gas boiler next time.

TEST RESULTS LAVA ROCK GLASS COLUMN
I have some very interesting results from my other test. Very surprising. The first one half of BW was run through my 4” glass column packed with 30” of lava rock.

LAVA ROCK ROCKS! It hit a solid 95%! After refluxing for only 30 minutes I reduced power to 18 amps and slowly reduced reflux coolant until flow started. I took off heads. They were remarkably compressed and flavor cleaned up after 300-400 ml. I then took the first 750ml of hearts at 95% in 30 minutes. I increased power to 20 amps. ABV dropped to 92-93% and flow increased to a whopping 1500ml in 15 minutes. ABV did start to drop as it neared the full mark so I do know that I was running too fast. This parrot is tight and at this flow rate it wants to push the meter out. 190 p pic.

TEST RESULTS LAVA ROCK 4" Rocket. SECOND LAVA TEST
I DID IT!
I hit azeotrope today. 96+% at 1500ml an hour. I put away the glass test column and fired up my new 4" rocket with its insulation wrap. A few inches taller. Whew!

I ran at a consistent 22 amps after total reflux at 24 amps for 30 minutes. Using Rad's calculator on the parent site that is 17.63 in/sec VS. After getting bored watching perfection for two hours while I collected 3000ml, I slightly decreased reflux condenser coolant. Speed jumped again to 1500 ml in 20 min. ABV dropped to 95%. After 3000 ml ABV dropped to 93%. I increased coolant flow again but ABV remained at 93%. Looking at boiler temp of 208 I realized I was in to tails. I shut down the reflux condenser and rung it out.

azotrope 2.jpg

BM its a whopping $5 a bag for 50 lbs. You will have to skip that extra beer at lunch.

[Bushman]

NICE! OK as soon as my company leaves I am going to run my UJ through the still, lava rock is so cheap I will have to go out and buy some. Now I have to figure out a way to engineer a method of easily changing out packing material. Like Braz mentioned in another thread probably easier to change out still heads than to change packing.

[thecroweater]

Is there any reason coke (Coal) couldn't be used . its ultra porous , would have an unbelievable surface area and doesn't seem to absorb anything unlike scoria and pumice , never heard of anyone using it though . just chucKing ideas around in my head for a packed section on a trayed still for neutrals

It might work well once all of the sulfur smell is washed out of it... I used it for hydroponics growing years ago...

Yes that's what i was thinking coking or cooked coal doesnt have a lot of impurities left in it as they would mess with steel production but there is a little left in . I was thinking the copper might take care of it , it just that it has a crazy amount of surface area and i think it would induce some really fantastic refluxing at a very fast pace , also it could be crushed to be as dense as required , Just a thought
Hey MR they sound like some really encouraging results if my coke plan is no good sounds like pumice might be a way ahead

[mash rookie]

I did diluting and sampling yesterday. At room temp samples 2 & 3 were 98-1/2% ABV. lol. My test tube was filled to the rim just to get the meter to float. I diluted to 80p. It was nothing like any BW I have made before. Sample 1 was completely tastless. Sample 2 was simular. Samples 3 & 4 had a slight scorched taste. Maybe I have always scorched a little but never been able to taste it. All samples were so neutral that they tasted watery to me. I covered all samples and put then away. I will try them today after they have had a chance to blend with the water

[mash rookie]

After letting the samples rest I tasted again. I was wrong. It was not a scorch taste. The later samples did have some flavor (very little) that I could not quite place.
I blended everything and diluted to 100 p. It is very good. I typically carbon polish my neutral and add a little sugar. I filtered a small amount and did a side by side tasting with my girlfriend. She liked the flavor better unfiltered. That settles that.

Is there any reason coke (Coal) couldn't be used . its ultra porous , would have an unbelievable surface area and doesn't seem to absorb anything unlike scoria and pumice , never heard of anyone using it though . just chucKing ideas around in my head for a packed section on a trayed still for neutrals

It might work well once all of the sulfur smell is washed out of it... I used it for hydroponics growing years ago...

Yes that's what i was thinking coking or cooked coal doesnt have a lot of impurities left in it as they would mess with steel production but there is a little left in . I was thinking the copper might take care of it , it just that it has a crazy amount of surface area and i think it would induce some really fantastic refluxing at a very fast pace , also it could be crushed to be as dense as required , Just a thought
Hey MR they sound like some really encouraging results if my coke plan is no good sounds like pumice might be a way ahead

Croweater I have never seen coke. Coal is not used much here on the west coast. Could you boil it to clean it? Would it be clean if you did? With how well lava worked it may not be worth the risk if it has impurities.
My research revealed that Pumice is a high silica content lava. I am going to try to find some pumice and black lava. I am using red lava now.
I will add, screw SPP and scrubbers.

[Dnderhead]

"Croweater I have never seen coke"
coke is similar to "activated" carbon, the gases have been burnt off leaving a higher carbon content.one big difference is activated carbon has been well cleaned .

[frozenthunderbolt]

My research revealed that Pumice is a high silica content lava. I am going to try to find some pumice and black lava. I am using red lava now.
I will add, screw SPP and scrubbers.

Are you using Scoria then MR? Reddish and full of tiny bubbles like a sponge but not as light as pummice?

[heartcut]

Coke is the heavies from crude oil after the last light compounds have been cooked away. Makes a great high temperature fuel but wouldn't want to eat it. Great thread.

[Dnderhead]

""Coke is the heavies from crude oil after the last light compounds have been cooked away""
??????????


Coke is the solid carbonized material derived from destructive distillation of low-ash, low-sulfur bituminous coal. Cokes from coal are grey, hard, and porous.

those the use a coal forge will know,,

[Dnderhead]

something that mite work ,,there is a copper "foam" type of material.I have no idea what its called.but its copper that is full of bubbles/holes like a sponge.

found some others out there,,http://www.ergaerospace.com/images/ERG% ... ts%202.pdf

[Prairiepiss]

This mite be stupid. And I think I know the answer. But here goes. What about coral rock? It's much like lava rock in form. The down side mite be that its mainly made up of calcium. And could be dissolved over time? I'm not real sure of its solublity in alcohol. But it will dissolve in water that has CO2 present and the right Ph. I guess the question would be would it dissolve in the high alcohol concentrated vapors and liquids? And if so would it be a benefit or a problem? Not sure it would carry over to the distillate.

All this talk about porus rock and this popped in my head.

[Prairiepiss]

something that mite work ,,there is a copper "foam" type of material.I have no idea what its called.but its copper that is full of bubbles/holes like a sponge.

found some others out there,,http://www.ergaerospace.com/images/ERG% ... ts%202.pdf

Now that's cool. Hate to see the price tag on it. And wonder what would happen when you cut it up into smaller chunks? Would the holes get blocked on the cut sides?

It would make a neat filter for the outlet of a stainless still. If it flowed good enough? And I've seen where some commercial brewerys and winerys pour there product across a big copper plate. That could be a useful alternative for that too.

Man wouldn't you like to get your hands on some of that.

[Dnderhead]

if you found some place that was using it. maybe the scrap could be purchased.

[Dnderhead]

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/48536 ... opper.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

not all that bad,,,

[eviljesus]

That copper foam looks the business. I might be investing in a sheet of that very very shortly.

[mash rookie]

I am happy I have you guys thinking outside the scrubber box. Feel free to post any test results and ideas.

With the lava working so well right out of the bag I am going to try to understand why. That may lead me to other packings with similar characteristics.

[thecroweater]

Coke is the solid carbonized material derived from destructive distillation of low-ash, low-sulfur bituminous coal. Cokes from coal are grey, hard, and porous. those the use a coal forge will know,,

Yep , Back on the farm my uncle taught me to hammer weld and all that blacksmithing business on a forge . I just drove 800 km home last night so while I'm here I might duck over to the farm and see if he'll give me a bucket of it . My idea is to make up a section that can easily be installed or removed from a plate tower , say a 2ft packed extension between the top plate and the reflux condenser . I can make it here but I doubt I'll be able to test it until I go home (almost everyone just has pot stills around here)

[mash rookie]

I find your idea interesting. Many might think of course that there might be oil based contaminates remaining. After years of working with 2000 – 2500 degree furnaces I would say that there should not be anything left that could give off contaminates. It is an ash.
I would love to see some coke. I have the ability to heat it to 2500 D to purify it if necessary.

PP's coral idea is similar in that the organism that created the structure is long dead and gone. It might be calcium based like sea shells. I dont know if that would affect or be affected by alcohol.

Metals, stone, ash. Glass, shells? There is only one critical question. Is it safe?

I think the lava shows that some previous conclusions are wrong. The maker of SPP wrote a paper where one of his statements was that packing material must be able to transmit heat well. The lava has poor heat transfer. He also stated that packing of any kind will not work in diameters greater than two inch. My recent success was 4” X 36”. It may be that we want even a lighter material with even poorer heat transference ability.




BTW, Does crow taste like chicken? Bald eagle?

[Dnderhead]

"packing material must be able to transmit heat well. "
thats why I thought of the copper.
its used for heat sinks,filters .its made in both open and closed "foam"

[LWTCS]

The way the column, and packing "copes" with heat would a better way To look at things imo.
Reminds me of how the word "effeciency" can mean different things To folks.

[Prairiepiss]

It would be interesting to compare the lava rock to the copper foam. That would say a lot about the temp dispersion within the packing.

Buy something tells me we won't be seeing it tested any time soon. At least around here anyways.

Which brings up another thought. What good would it benefit the hobby distiller to find the best packing. If price wasn't considered? Lava rock is a good cheap readily available to most product. Most can go down to the local garden supply and pick up a bag. But things like SPP and copper foam are specialized products. Not exactly easy to get a hold of. Yes it would be nice to know the best material to use. But most just want a practical material that gives the most bang for the buck. Especially when you only have a buck.

[NcHooch]

If I was gonna build another reflux still, I think I'd be looking at inert materials that were porous ...ceramic raschig rings would be high on my list , and I'd mix in some (25%) copper tubing rings of similar size.

I don't think I'd even consider unknown materials like lava, or coke , there's too many questions about what kind of compounds are in there that may react with hot alcohol vapors. remember how it's a great solvent.

[mash rookie]

"packing material must be able to transmit heat well. "
thats why I thought of the copper.
its used for heat sinks,filters .its made in both open and closed "foam"

I am no longer convinced that is completely true Dunder. It is certainly what I have been taught and what is stated in every thing I have read. The success in a short height with the lava at least showed that conductivity is not as important as surface structure. When I watched it in the glass column it was very slow to wet.

If I was gonna build another reflux still, I think I'd be looking at inert materials that were porous ...ceramic raschig rings would be high on my list , and I'd mix in some (25%) copper tubing rings of similar size.

I don't think I'd even consider unknown materials like lava, or coke , there's too many questions about what kind of compounds are in there that may react with hot alcohol vapors. remember how it's a great solvent.

I agree NC that anything used must be totally inert. I have, and will put my money where my mouth is. I recently had my copper wool lab tested for impurities. $120. I will lab test Lava if it is my final choice. It appears to be completely inert but “Who knows?”