Maximum boiler size for hobby???

[Bushman]

I can't believe I am seeing this thread for the first time. Here is a picture of a micro distillery in Washington using kegs.

In my opinion there are other issues such as storage. From time to time other people go in my out building and I don't think I could easily hide a 50 gallon boiler but if I took 2 kegs and stacked and welded them together that would probably be my max for a hobby but currently I am happy with my single keg.

[HolyBear]

Arcmaster, though yer build was titled something like "my 50 gal boiler", by my calculations it wasnt 50gal, more like 47gal, and that's filled to the rim... guessing that yer fermentor is a 50gal barrel, with trub, you'll prolly only get about 45gal of wash anywayz, Max... with a mash, much less because of the space that the grains take up...

[Prairiepiss]

Any wayz, it looks like Mr P and MR finally agree on something,...kinda

We agree on lots of things. We just do it in PM’s so we don’t ruin our public reputation.[/quote]

You did it wrong.


Another thing that I don't think I have seen mentioned yet. The general public is ignorant of how much a still boiler will produce. This would include most LEOs and prosecutors. They see a 50 gal boiler they think you get 50 gallon of product from it. They don't realize a 50 gal boiler can't run 50 gallons and 40 gallons is more like it. And that 40 gallons is only going to make maybe 4 gallons of good drinking product. Just look at how many new members that don't understand why they only got a small amount of drink. And they should know why. The general public don't really have a reason to know. And they see shows like moonshiners where they fill up a truck her with gal jugs full of water. So perception from those not in the hobby makes a big difference. Hell if most of them knew what it took to make a small amount of good drink. They would call us idiot for wasting so much time on this hobby. Most say it about hobby brewers and wine makers as it is. And that's just the first step in this hobby.

[Durace11]

Listen i'm not doing anything illegal here i have applied for the permit i do have interest in a micro distllery just not now i want to practice with this size boiler and various columns and this permit will let me practice all i want with fermenting and distilling i just have to burn it in my truck and equipment here on the farm. it will also be used as a demo for some folks that also have interest in this size boiler. now that being said the only ones needing protected here are the people building stove top potential bombs with pots and pans and flour so they can poison themselvs and freinds. holly crap i dont know how some of these people havent blown themselvs up or burnt down there homes.

Relax, we aren't all pointing at you, this is about the hobby in general starting a trend toward everyone going bigger and bigger. This has been building up slowly but lately has taken a huge jump. Like someone above me said 2 years ago everyone was using a 2 inch column on a 5 gallon milk can. Now there are a bunch of 4 inch columns out there and guys are making the jump from 15 to 50 gallon boilers, and I don't mean just you! I know MR is building for a business so he has his bases covered but there have been several people poking around lately talking 55 gallon drum boiler. Almost all the commercial home distilling online shops are also going bigger in boiler sizes for sale. Now, this may be due to the increasing number of nano and micro distilleries but you just know the home use guys are drooling over that and looking for ways to match that bling. I think it's partially the "Who's got the biggest one?" for bragging rights but also people want the best and in a lot of eyes biggest = best. We get new members coming on here all the time saying, "Just tell me what's the best of everything and I'm going to build/buy that!". That may be partially responsible for some of this thinking that everyone "needs" a 50 gallon boiler or that it's just a natural progression from 5 gallon milk can to 15 gallon keg to 50 gallon drum.

[myles]

I think I am correct in stating that small breweries are designated to be the size that they produce. So a 10 barrel micro brewery, will produce 10 barrels of product in a run. Now I don't know if the convention applies to distilleries but it is a shame on the scale that we use that we can't do the same.

Name the boiler for the qty of PRODUCT it will produce and not the total capacity.

[pfshine]

Name the boiler for the qty of PRODUCT it will produce and not the total capacity.

That is how I am going to describe boilers from now on thanks myles

[Beerswimmer]

After doing many, many stripping runs through my keg I really want a 30gallon so that it would take less time. I make very tight cuts and would still be only making the same amount of finished product. Just less filling, moving, splashing, etc. So for me a 30 is what I'd like for stripping, and a 15 and a 8 gallon for spirit runs. 50 would just take too long to strip, too much product all at once.

[myles]

there still needs to be a convention of sorts.

50 Litre keg boiler - typically charged with 40 litres @ 27 to 30% ABV. Could be expected to yield 8 litres of product.

So we could call a pot still using a 50 litre boiler as an 8 litre still!!

[arcmaster]

[quote="myles"]there still needs to be a convention of sorts.

[TOAD]

If i could o would have a 1000gal boiler and a seller full of oak barrels. Cornfields and sugar cane as far as the eye could see. Yes it would be for personal use. No i would not sell. Would i give it away and show it off? You bet yer boots i would. I would have a setup like in moonshine holler in gatlinburg tenn, on display for all to see. But that would be in a perfect world where im rich and home distilling is legal. A man can dream, cant he?

[mash rookie]

there still needs to be a convention of sorts.

50 Litre keg boiler - typically charged with 40 litres @ 27 to 30% ABV. Could be expected to yield 8 litres of product.

So we could call a pot still using a 50 litre boiler as an 8 litre still!!

I agree there should be a consensus. With the readily available kegs that are easy to convert it keeps most on the same playing field. Most agree.

26 gallon boilers are becoming popular and I understand their appeal for a four inch rig.
I have to admit that when doing four inch testing is difficult with 15 gallons if I don’t add a considerable amount of feints. The run is often over so quickly that changes in operational procedures are not practical. To take notes and compare to other packings, protocols or finished products can be often inaccurate.

That being said. I will continue to work with kegs. Information I learn and pass on will be the most helpful to a major part of our member base.
MR

[HookLine]

Both output volume (boiler size), and output rate (column size), have to be clearly non-commercial, personal use, hobby level only. No way around that.

I see no good reason for hobby level boilers to be bigger than about 100 litres (26 gallons), or columns bigger than 100 mm (4").

Even that size is starting to make me a little nervous. Any bigger is just asking for trouble.

We got something pretty special going here with this little hobby. It can get taken away from us in a fucking heartbeat if we don't keep a lick of common sense and self-restraint about us.

We set our own limits, or Johnny Lawman will do it for us. And he will not be too friendly or forgiving about it. That's the choice.

Short version: Don't be greedy.

[Bushman]

Both output volume (boiler size), and output rate (column size), have to be clearly non-commercial, personal use, hobby level only. No way around that.

I see no good reason for hobby level boilers to be bigger than about 100 litres (26 gallons), or columns bigger than 100 mm (4").

Even that size is starting to make me a little nervous. Any bigger is just asking for trouble.

We got something pretty special going here with this little hobby. It can get taken away from us in a fucking heartbeat if we don't keep a lick of common sense and self-restraint about us.

We set our own limits, or Johnny Lawman will do it for us. And he will not be too friendly or forgiving about it. That's the choice.

Short version: Don't be greedy.

Those seem like very reasonable limits for a hobby. I like my 4" column and can live with 3 but anything smaller on a 10 gallon plus charge just takes to long to run on a reflux still.

[HolyBear]

Hook, what you said reminds me of something one of our founding fathers of this country said. I can't quote it, but it goes something like... Without a moral people, the people have more need to be controlled... That was the general meaning anyway.
So, if we don't set a "moral" standard of the exceptable size of hobby boiler ourselves, the law will... That's my question, what is the exceptabe maximum size? Since were looking at that, prolly should look at minimum too for a range. (I think most folks would say 5gal, I could be wrong)
Looks like maybe 30gal Max would be exceptable to most folks? Or as Myles would state, a 3gal still??? (Sorry for the mis quote Myles, I'm not very good with metric, we still use the kings measurements here, isn't that ironic?)
Edit to add, looks like folks think 50gal would be for micro distillery level for drinking, what about fuel only? For fuel, some of the rules we live by aren't necessary. There is a fuel section here. And several fuel permitees...

[Burks]

Applying for a permit does not make one legal, nor does the excuse of "practicing". It's still illegal, and jeopardizes the hobby. "Officer I'm just practicing to grow weed for when it becomes legal here in X state!" Illegal is illegal is illegal. Spin it how you want, the outcome is always the same until the good ol' US-of-A says "Pay us our large share......you are now a legal distillery".

Like anything, moderation. <30gallons isn't unreasonable. Granted we all know Johnny Law blows things out of proportion (like saying they made a $10k marijuana bust and there's only a few ounces of it). They spin it and inflate the numbers like a 10 man team of elves is running that 30g still 24/7/365. But hey........it makes for great headlines and promotions.

Overall a lot of what has been said here is probably true. Do they really care about the guy busting his butt to make 2L of finished product for their self? Doubtful. Try to sell that finished product even for a "donation"? They'll be beating down your door with guns pointed at your noodle. Don't mess with their money, they won't mess with you.

It's the big time guys that are often not are careful. Do they all take off the foreshots? Think they clean everything? Lead free solder all the time? They don't care about you and I, just the almighty dollar $$$. The homebrew folks care more about safety. Who in their right mind would purposefully spend good money, time, and energy to make a product they are going to drink that might be unsafe?

[rad14701]

I guess it's about time I threw my hat into the ring on this one, but most of you already know what I'm going to say...

As far as boiler size discussions are concerned, I feel that we here at HD probably have the best chance of swaying any government bureaucracy into what they should consider an acceptable size that they would turn a blind eye to... That is why we promote responsible practice here as well as having a good understanding of the overall process... We don't harp on people simply because we like picking on them...

Let's look at it from a safety logistics point of view... Just how much 100+ proof vapor in the head space of a boiler is acceptable from a catastrophic failure point of view...??? So we're looking at explosive and flammable potential... That is what the whole size issue has been about all along... Or just as much about that as total spirit production volumes...

And we're talking "hobby scale"... With the definition of "hobby scale" meaning that it is something we enjoy doing regularly in an effort to make us more proficient and therefore safer at doing it with each successive run... And should we have the misfortune of having an accident the only effected area would be the immediate surroundings being coated with boiling hot non-flammable wash and only minimal explosive potential... The bigger you go the more likely to have physical damage to people and structure should such an event occur...

I ran a 40 gallon boiler in the past but felt it was too big... I downsized to a 30 gallon boiler and still felt that it was too big... In recent years I've been running a 2 gallon boiler and that is too small for most folks to run if they don't know what they are doing, but I make some damned nice spirits with it... I'll be bumping up to 4 - 5 gallons shortly... So, as you can see, I've gone in the reverse direction from what some here have gone... And my only reason for upping the volume is because I now have two people to provide spirits for rather than just myself...

Just some food for thought... This is a discussion we really have needed to have so let's keep the dialog going...

[Prairiepiss]

Ok this thread has turned into what's best to make the hobby legal for the USA. Basically.

There are many other countries represented here. Some of which it is legal to home distill. So maybe we should look at what those countries have in place? I would like to know what is considered hobby size in New Zealand? Where it is legal. Maybe since it is legal there that is what we should go by? And could be considered the goal to shoot for.


And making a standard for boiler size designation isn't a good idea in my opinion. First off this is not the only distilling forum. And there is no way commercial distillers and manufactures would pick up on it. So what we would be stuck with is a bunch of cornfused folks of why a boiler this size we call this size. So we would have another thing to try to explain to all the newbs. As if temp control and turbo yeast wasn't enough to explain to every other Newb.

[Richard7]

The only thing I have to gauge by is my current still.
The pot would be full at 26.5 gallons. The size of my wash is about 23 gallons giving me about 3.5 gallons head space for boiling. On a good run (every other weekend) I will end up with about 2+ gallons of hearts. With 2 people drinking it (Me mostly, and my wife) it will last about 2 weeks.
Using one fermenter and giving just 1 or 2 days between ferments, I barley make enough to keep some in the house. So I ask this. Is it the size of the boiler or the amount of ferments going on? To quote Burks "10 man team of elves is running that 30g still 24/7/365" now with that kind of production going on, a ten gallon still could be over the hobby limit.
If I had access to a 40 gallon I could slow down and enjoy it a little more. But I would have to go with a 4" column. 23 gallons on a 2" takes all day even when you spend the night before getting it ready.

[HolyBear]

Thank-you for the input Rad, I was hoping you would chime in. Yes, for many reasons, I can see why this is a discussion that should be had. That's why I started it. Lots of variables to consider, not just about what size, but why??? How will it benefit the craft? Could it maybe even legislation some day???

Mr P, good point!!! What is the standard in New Zealand??? New Zealand brethren please chime in. After all, why reinvent the wheel if the wheel roles fine...

[thecroweater]

In Oz the trend is for 4" pretty much now and quite a number are starting to work with 6" , it doesn't get mentioned a whole lot as these folk don't want to be told they're sus or greedy.
Really it has nothing to do with either , Its about run times and boiler size is about still efficiency wash capacity ect. I have run a 50 ltr keg for a good while but having mostly 70 ltr fermenters this can be a pain , so now I have an 18 gal keg and soon that will be on a 4" 4 plate column
I have and have friends that have larger copper boilers too, none of us sell anything ever these sorts of set ups are for running lager washes in shorter run times but yeah its not to wise to say to much about it and posting pictures could most certainly raise eyebrows

[Durace11]

thecroweater, or anyone else in OZ or another legal distilling country, is there a legal description you can research to show exactly what the law says about boiler size or output volume. I think this is the type of description that would be used in the USA for describing distilling if/when it becomes legal. Currently homebrewing of beer/wine/cider/mead is limited to 100 gallons per year per adult in the household with a household max of 200 gallons per year total for adults households with more than 2 adults present(please correct me if that statement is wrong, I'm going off memory here).

[frozenthunderbolt]

Ok this thread has turned into what's best to make the hobby legal for the USA. Basically.

There are many other countries represented here. Some of which it is legal to home distill. So maybe we should look at what those countries have in place? I would like to know what is considered hobby size in New Zealand? Where it is legal. Maybe since it is legal there that is what we should go by? And could be considered the goal to shoot for.


And making a standard for boiler size designation isn't a good idea in my opinion. First off this is not the only distilling forum. And there is no way commercial distillers and manufactures would pick up on it. So what we would be stuck with is a bunch of cornfused folks of why a boiler this size we call this size. So we would have another thing to try to explain to all the newbs. As if temp control and turbo yeast wasn't enough to explain to every other Newb.

AFAIK Most commercial stills we can buy have a 20-30L Boiler (not counting the mr distiller benchtop crap spitters)

That said i think there are a fair few Kiwis with keg stills - i've got a 15.5 Gal that i'm working on the at the moment and I think that will be a good size for me; big enough that i can strip my biggest fermenting barrel in two goes, not 5.

This said my 25L bought still, run with a 18-20L charge at 10-14% strip run (depending on what it is) averaging once per weekend produces way more than myself and my GF can drink - within the next 3 months I will have finished my plum brandy runs and final neutral run, and wont be running again for a year or two to produce alcohol; only occasionally to do infusions like gin and absinthe.

Different horses for different courses i guess.

I can see the point in an R and D type guy like Larry or Myles having a bigger boiler to be able to accurately test big/complex heads, for most of us, from a safety (and a health!) POV I would think that a full sized keg as your boiler would be plenty - this would IMHO allow for a reasonable yield, even if doing a 6% AG type wash (where i can certainly see a smaller boiler would be crap)

[frozenthunderbolt]

thecroweater, or anyone else in OZ or another legal distilling country,

To the best of my knowledge it is still illegal in Oz. Not actively pursued often, but still illegal.
Relevant info on NZ and OZ law here at the parent site:
http://homedistiller.org/intro/legal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Wasn't legal in NZ until the mid 90's, and our customs guys are pretty onto it about busting people who sell.
Dispensation from licensing here:
http://www.customs.govt.nz/news/resourc ... t%2025.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Interesting there is a clear limit on tobacco producible by an individual (15kg)
But no specific or set limit on any kind of alcohol production (in terms of volume)

[Prairiepiss]

Commercialy available equipment available to the Joe lunch boxs have gotten quite large. But only because they can sell them. And they also sell the to legal distillerys. You all know as well as I do. There will always be those people that have to have the biggest one they can buy. We usually say they are trying to make up for other short comings.

But can anyone here really justify a 6" still on a 100 gallon boiler for hobby use? Hell one run and you damn near made all the wine or beer you can make in one year. It's just not reasonable for home use to make for personal consumption. But I'm sure someone somewhere thinks its ok. And more then likely they are the type you will never be able to tell otherwise. And it will make them want a bigger one.

[gleamingthecube]

I am new here and I have noticed that the 55 gallon drum boilers are WAY cheaper than their commercially available counterparts that are half that size or less. For example, Bubba's Barrels has a pre modified boiler here that offers up to a 6" column and starts in price at about $400. Conversely, Hillbilly Stills has a very nice 26 gallon boiler similarly appointed for $550. Less than half the size but the cost is much higher. Even a modified keg boiler at Rainier sells for more than the 55 gallon drum boiler. If I were looking to upgrade from a keg sized boiler (I am not, just for argument's sake) the 55 gallon one would look mighty attractive. Many people do not have the skills or tools to work with stainless steel so a commercially available boiler is needed, even if they plan to build their own column. I personally don't have room for a still that size but I'm sure plenty of others do and might make the jump to 55 gallons because of the price alone.

That being said, I sincerely hope that no one without experience and lots of free space goes the 55 gallon route. Even if someone chooses to do so, that doesn't necessarily mean that the discussion about it should live here in public view. Mods, would that kind of discussion via PM be ok? I am just beginning to get into this hobby and I hope that HD will continue to be available. It is for this reason that I will say that I understand the reasoning behind the limiting discussion to 'hobby sizes' only. I would hate for John Law to invade and smash up this party.

[HolyBear]

Yes, yes, this is what I'm wondering. Logic. Logic. Logic. Keep it coming fellas. Mr P wrote something like, can anyone here justify a 6" and a 100gal boiler?
Well, I can't see a 100gal boiler...maybe that's just me, but 10%=10gal, minus- cuts= 50% (I do make tight cuts) =5gal@100%= 10gal@50%... 10 gal,...that's quite a bit even if you were to set some back to age...

But, lets talk about the 6" portion of the above question. I just found out today that I have free access to 6" stainless and clamps. Now, since diameter=speed, height=purity, what would be wrong with 6"and a keg? Or 6"and a 30gal boiler?

Still hope to hear more from NZ brethren on legal specifics...

[Richard7]

Now, since diameter=speed, height=purity, what would be wrong with 6"and a keg? Or 6"and a 30gal boiler?

Still hope to hear more from NZ brethren on legal specifics...

I don't feel like if our hobby was to become legal that the restrictions placed on us would be fair to all.

If they limit column size, that would only limit how fast you could make your product. Not fair to those who don't have a lot of time to wait on the still.

If they limit boiler size, that would only limit how much you got on a batch. Not fair to those who don't have time to wait on their ferment's.

They would probably limit the amount of distilled spirits you can make a year. Not fair to the ones who go for lower ABV flavor spirits.

I too would like it to become legal, but hate to think of the restrictions that would be placed on us. I just wish they could mind their business and let us mind ours.

All of the above is just a rant against the gov. Why can't we just do our thing? LOL

[thecroweater]

Dead right FTB it is not legal but the legislation controlling and police this are from 2 separate acts in different sections of law so once you sell spirits your screwed the law is clear and you are going to get it this is under the customs and tax legislation the other antiquated act concerning stills is faulty and vage at best it says the the still must be at capacity of not more than 5 ltrs but not how that's determined and that it can not be used to make alcohol , fine because that's imposable for a separating apparatus like a still to do anyway (less ya ferment in the boiler) so no one gets busted for this because a successful conviction would be nearly imposable to achieve and may even prove that home stilling by default is not strictly illegal . Did I mention if ya sell it ya screwed
Tobacco yeah I've been lead to believe that not amount can be produced and you will get pinged for tax fraud , since learning this I've stopped growing it in my front yard , trying to quit anyway so might have to grow corn or something I can ferment (tobacco wine maybe)

[HolyBear]

Richard, I must say three cheers. yes!!! As long as yer not selling. That's my opinion. I hate gov limitations/restrictions with a passion... as mentioned earlier though, we must restrict ourselves, much smarter men than us have said so in the past. What is maximum boiler size for personal consumption?

Column size is a different issue as I see it...

Crow, y'all are living on the edge. You have an excellent opportunity to set the example for the rest of the world. 10 liter? Does that even wet yer whistle? Way low in my opinion...

[Lucent]

I recon you can do whatever you want that fits your needs. Whether or not you should come over in this fellers yard bragging about it is his choice. Got to respect people's house and yard, this is his yard be polite and don't bring stuff he doesn't like.

It's just dumb to think Johnny law doesn't enjoy hanging out here too. I can almost guarantee you some top posts probably have a day job that would make me nervous. Don't think for a second it takes any more effort than a few clicks to pull any posters IP Address and seconds later your home address and everything about you.

I enjoy having this resource and these experienced men's knowledge at my disposal for my purely hipothetical hobby that ill never post specifics or pics of...

It's a whole lot safer for everyone that's this site exists to educate and sometimes maybe even weed out some bad corn