New filtering idea - while stripping

[vetting]

Well we might have the different definitions of backset. I took it to mean what was just left over in the boiler after you are done running. My 2nd run was a lot cleaner but that it somewhat to be expected regardless of the carbon filtering on the first run. My stripping runs tend to have the color of the wash left over and my reflux runs tend to have some red junk in the bottom of it (but mostly clear liquid)- but that is probably because of the water itself.

[Dnderhead]

if you run wash threw a pot still or any still the product is or should be clear.then if you dilute and rerun all is clear.
both the backset and the product if not then you have done something wrong.Iv made many runs two or three times and all came out that way.the back set gits less "funky"tasting but its always clear after the first run.

[Prairiepiss]

Yes your definition of backset is the same as mine.

I guess I am not making my self clear.


Run 1 fermented wash
Backset will be nasty from the wash

Run 2 diluted with clean water.
Backset will be cloudy

Run 3 diluted with clean water
Backset will be cleaner Then the backset from run 2

Run 4 diluted with clean water.
Backset will be cleaner then run 3

So on and so forth.

Big R's thinking is if you are putting a clear liquid in the boiler. You should get a clear liquid out of it when the run is over. If its not clear you just removed some of the bad things that were still in it.

And I happen to think this is a very good way to look at it. And it does clean it up pretty good in my opinion. But really just makes more of it cleaner. But then again I have only done this one time. Ran an all bran 4 times. The backset was just barely cloudy on that 4th run.

I like what comes off my still. And what I don't like goes in the feints jar. To be rerun a second time. And if I don't like it from that run guess where it goes. Nope down the drain. I'm not in it to get as much as I possibly can from each wash. I'm in it to get a drink I really like. And I can do a single run through my CM still. Take the hearts out and they compare pretty good to the store bought stuff. Even better then if you ask me. But everyone will say theirs is better. That's in the eye of the beholder.

I guess I should just be thankful I have found a recipe. That I can be happy with just doing a single run with. And not having to filter or anything else.

Or maybe I'm just talking out my

[blind drunk]

Big R's thinking is if you are putting a clear liquid in the boiler. You should get a clear liquid out of it when the run is over. If its not clear you just removed some of the bad things that were still in it.

What confuses me is, where is the "dirt" going if it's not remaining in the boiler? Shouldn't the nasties stay behind in the muddy water and the distillate be clear? Just not clear to me ...

[Prairiepiss]

Big R's thinking is if you are putting a clear liquid in the boiler. You should get a clear liquid out of it when the run is over. If its not clear you just removed some of the bad things that were still in it.

What confuses me is, where is the "dirt" going if it's not remaining in the boiler? Shouldn't the nasties stay behind in the muddy water and the distillate be clear? Just not clear to me ...

That is the whole point BD.

If you put a clear liquid in the boiler to run. And after you run it. What you get out of the boiler as backset is not clear. You just cleaned what ever made that backset dirty out of the spirits you just ran off.

[Bagasso]

I think it would be similar to what happens when you water down distillate with too much tails. It is clear at a high ABV but when it gets cut down to drinking strength it gets cloudy. This means that if you run low wines from a stripping run the backset will probably be cloudy because it has all the tails from the wash and there is no ethanol left in the liquid to help hold it in suspension.

You water down and repeat until the backset is clear which would indicate that there are no more tails in the product. Of course this would mean that the product from the previous run was tail free and you did a run just to confirm.

[Dnderhead]

its not to me either,,once iv run it its clear unless its a stripping run.then it mite be cloudy.
then the back set from the next run will be colored. but if i do a spirits run all is clear.
maybe burning in the still?

[Prairiepiss]

Um I don't know. It's clear in my head but its must be coming out cloudy. I don't know what else to say so I will shut up now.
Sory for taking up your time.

[Bagasso]

If you make good cuts on the first run then the backset of any following runs would be clear because you know what you are doing.

I think the idea in the OP lets you run and filter at the same time so that even the backset from the first run after the stripping run is clear. No need for further runs and probably makes it easier to make cuts due to the smells and flavors taken out of the equation.

[rad14701]

I think we've come full circle to "fundamentals"...

[Bagasso]

Don't really understand what you mean by fundamentals. I asked before but never got an answer.

It's like ying and yang.

Make perfect cuts you don't need carbon. Use carbon you don't need to make perfect cuts.

They are both true. It's up to the individual to decide how he wants to operate.

[junkyard dawg]

Make perfect cuts you don't need carbon. Use carbon you don't need to make perfect cuts

I don't really think either of those are 'true'.

They are not wrong either...

they are too dramatic!

and too simple.




some like the tap water...

others like to filter it a little.

Who am I to judge?

[Bagasso]

I don't really think either of those are 'true'.
They are not wrong either...
they are too dramatic!
and too simple.

I can agree that they are dramatic but I think they are true in a relative sort of way.

No one can really make perfect cuts because it's a matter of personal taste.

[blind drunk]

its not to me either,,once iv run it its clear unless its a stripping run.then it mite be cloudy.
then the back set from the next run will be colored. but if i do a spirits run all is clear.

Certainly my experience. I think we're back to flogging that dead horsey.

[vetting]

Took 2 qts of the hearts (94% abv) that I had and mixed up some vodka using distilled water.

Cut it down to normal 80 proof and did a taste test - yep, it was the smoothest and cleanest neutral that I've made. Gave some to the gf and the neighbor and they both said that it was super smooth and they didnt taste or smell anything. In one of the bottles I even added some honey to it to give it some mouth feel and it made the product even better.

I've been distilling for about a year now and have run about 15 batches through and this is by far the best one. The one thing that I enjoy most is it got rid of that darn sweet note that comes through in a lot of neutrals.

I'm going to do the same process to the next wash to try to duplicate the results.

[Bagasso]

Sounds like you have found just what you were looking for.

A thought just occured to me and that is that filtering like this means that you have a different ABV throughout the run. This means that when the tails are running through the carbon they are at a low ABV. This could mean that the carbon can filter better because the liquid has lost it affinity for those compunds. They fall out of solution and are more easily adsobed.

That would make it better than filtering the batch as a whole at a higher ABV.

[Ian Jay]

Ian's first hypothesis:

"The lower the level of unwanted impurities you produce when fermenting has a direct and proportional effect on the level of unwanted impurities in the final product, assuming you are running a reasonably efficient still."

True or false? Maybe's should be explained.

[Bagasso]

"The lower the level of unwanted impurities you produce when fermenting has a direct and proportional effect on the level of unwanted impurities in the final product, assuming you are running a reasonably efficient still."

True or false? Maybe's should be explained.

True. That is why we keep the ABV of our washes low, remember the nutrients, keep the temp within a certain range and when possible control the PH. Having the yeast in a stressful environment makes them produce more off flavors. Lagering of beer is an example of controlling the temperature to have a cleaner end product.

ETA: The thing is that even with all this care there are always going to be unwanted congeners. It is part of the natural process.

[Dnderhead]

I disagree with that.either a "durty" or a "clean" ferment can have the same outcome. but the "durty" ferment you have to remove more.you can do this by redistilling,making better cuts,running slower..

[rad14701]

True. That is why we keep the ABV of our washes low, remember the nutrients, keep the temp within a certain range and when possible control the PH. Having the yeast in a stressful environment makes them produce more off flavors. Lagering of beer is an example of controlling the temperature to have a cleaner end product.

There's part of those fundamentals you were wondering about earlier...


Those who have done ample research and have experience under their belts come to know these fundamentals and they become an unwritten guide that they follow in an effort to insure decent spirits... The path of least resistance...

Seems like the more folks think they can stray away from the fundamentals and use a fudge factor, or a crutch, or whatever, the more we keep coming back to the fundamentals... We have more than a few topics that have gone round robin like this... Perhaps we need a list, carved in stone, like the ten commandments...

While fully understanding the theoretical intentions of the original post, as well as several subsequent posts, by following some fundamentals we end up with a more direct means to the same end...

I'll try to refrain for reiterating it again, at least in this topic...


Dnderhead posted while I was typing and that's my kind of logic, as previously noted... I'd exhaust all other options before contemplating filtering, but thats just me...

[Bagasso]

There's part of those fundamentals you were wondering about earlier...

Well I do all that and can still end up with less than ideal hearts. I have years of research and runs and can honestly say that carbon has its place. While that limited set of fundamentals are important it would help if people could broaden their content to include whatever works, as long as it is safe, instead of trying to turn distillation into some quasi-religion with its rules set in stone.

Plus the OP is more than pleased with his results so I wouldn't say we have gone round robin. In fact I would say it was the complete opposite. It has shown that someone who has stuck with the HD sanctioned fundamentals for a year has come to realize that he has never gotten the results that he was able to get with this way of filtering.

[rad14701]

True, the OP has stated that he is happy with his results... But . . . . Well, we'll leave it at that...

[vetting]

True, the OP has stated that he is happy with his results... But . . . . Well, we'll leave it at that...

Now if we can just get Rad to stop bust'n my ballz about it

At least in my case, I think my original issues have to do with some less than desirable product coming over in my stripping runs. If running in pot still mode for your final run the product comes out pretty quickly. When running in reflux with a boka, you are boiling the crap out of those undesirable elements for an extended period of time and no matter what your cuts are, for me it didnt taste perfect. Now that can be general off taste or that pesky sweet taste. It could even be an issue with the original ferment due to local water content even when using tried and true recipes. With treating the stripping run with carbon, I think it is removing some of those undesirable products from the start rather then depending on cuts to remove (which in my case even perfect cuts didnt help). All I ever make is neutrals intended for vodka since Im not a fan of rum and whiskey. With over a year now of distilling under my belt and countless hours of experimentation and reading here, I just couldnt get the true vodka neutral that I wanted. Now with this new process, I have the neutral that I want and it doesn't take any extra time and the extra cost is minimal.

We have a bunch of people coming over for Turkey day....a few of them who are "professional" drinkers and going to have them try some on the rocks to see what they think so I can get a non biased opinion. Im not trying to add to the commandments or break them - just wanted to share my experiences and maybe give the people who say their neutral isnt the neutral they wanted another option to try.

[Dnderhead]

"just couldn't get the true vodka neutral "
I thank this tells something.. vodka is not a neutral..it does have a bit of flavor.though not enough to tell what it was made from. (unless you are a conosur?) this is my opinion,,sugar wash does make a good base for liquors but not vodka..
most vodka is made form wheat mash,white wheat will be more "neutral" and red wheat will be a little "spicy"

id say if your not satisfied with what your making then its time to take another step.

[Coaster]

@ vetting,

Not intending to ruffle your feathers but your implication that running in pot still mode would produce a more neutral sprit than running in reflux with a Boka is flawed. If running in reflux with a Boka will not produce a more neutral sprit then running in pot still mode then something is flawed in your process.

Perhaps you should closely analyze the construction of you reflux Boka column and ensure that there isn’t some overlooked design flaw. Have you closely looked at your column packing and certain that it is sufficient quantity, quality and cleanliness. When drawing off sprit product what reflux percentage are you running at?

Perchance have you tried Odin’s Special K Vodka recipe? It makes a ‘Neutral’ vodka. I also tired it using Rice Krispies and it also was very ‘Neutral’.

Regards,
Coaster

[Bagasso]

most vodka is made form wheat mash,white wheat will be more "neutral" and red wheat will be a little "spicy"

There are vodkas made from everything including fruits, potatos, cane and beet sugar. I think it has more to do with what is the least expensive in any given area. Tito's vodka is made with corn probably because corn is the cheapest in the us. Everclear is also made from corn.

Also, most vodkas are also charcoal filtered so I fail to see how it can not be seen as a fundamental step in vodka or neutral making. Just like what whiskey makers say about oak when asked about other woods: "it's the industry standard for a reason".

[Dnderhead]

that is true and each will have there own character and not all is carbon filtered..what i was trying to git at if not satisfied try a different ferment.

[Bagasso]

I often get the same advice but if filtering gets the job done then why, because some guy on the net thinks its bad juju?

I just did a quick scan of a vodka site and 5 out of ten of the top vodkas (according to the site) use charcoal and one uses quartz. Now I gotta find out what the quartz is supposed to be doing.

[Ian Jay]

If you visit the traditional vodka producing plants in the vodka-belt countries you will be hard pressed to find any charcoal. Its simply not part of the process. Vodka was, and remains, the most popular spirit in Eastern and Central Europe with a very long history. it only became popularised in the West about 40-50 years ago, and modern Western production methods have little in common with the traditional Eastern ones.

So, if you were brought up on 'Western vodka' you may find the Eastern vodka not to your taste. A Polish friend of mine calls the Western popular vodkas, 'mouthwash'. It lacks the 'burn', he complains, as he downs it in one!

Later addition - I suspect that the triple charcoal filtering hype has more to do with cleaning rough spirit and the marketing guys duping the gullible public.

[blind drunk]

I just did a quick scan of a vodka site and 5 out of ten of the top vodkas (according to the site) use charcoal and one uses quartz.

What about the other top five producers?