Heating Element Control

[Waygrumpy]

I know I am not the first to mention this as a possibility but I would not mind a bit more in depth chat about it. I think I read that mulekicker did something similar would love to here his experience with it.

My intentions in my new boiler are to run 2 electric heaters. I will run both to ramp up to temperature and then just one to actually go through the rest of the process.

I know that I need to stay on top of this but I love toys flahing lights and things that plug in. I also like to automate things as long as I can put my hands on it and take manual control.

My long term goal is to take this into some simple ladder logic or into a pic microcontroller for electronic control and monitoring/graphing abilities but that is for another discussion.

I Started off thinking about omega and or watlo but the expense is huge if I go new and too often at work I have bought things like this that were pulled out of industrial equipment because it had some small problem that affected it either intermittently or under specific situations. For this reason I want to go with new. Feel free to dog me for this but that is just my opinion.

So that being said I took out my calculator and thought that either I would have to break into the piggy bank or break down and go used.

But being a design engineer with IS background I figured I would spend a few minutes in some trade magazines etc and see what some other people were doing and using. I found a couple of solutions that were interesting and might be usable in this situation. Some available new on EBAY



I found a couple options. Not sure what I am going to do yet but thought the options for the money are interesting. The first and the one I am referring to in this post is 40 dollars with shipping included. Doing some searching there are basically 2 serious issues with this little toy. 1. It does not have a Fahrenheit mode but personally I can live with that. 2. I guess the manual sucks hard but there is a competitive product that is a bit more money and from what I can tell uses the same setup procedure and commands with better descriptions and can be downloaded on line.

It does have a manual mode so I think this is at least worth considering if you want to add some PID options.

Some of the options that interest me are
1. DIN(48X48mm) Temperature Controller
2. Support multi sensor input (K,S,Wre,T,E,J,B,N,CU50,PT100)
3. Wide control range -50～1300℃(K sensor)
4. Indication and control accuracy 0.1℃, high measurement
5. accuracy ±0.2%FS
6. PID and ON/OFF control mode
7. Output and alarm format can be set by user
8. Built-in digital filter reduce interfere
9. Self calibration technology, keep stabilization
10. 0.39" height LED, prevent dazzle, highly visible display
11. Switching power supply and low consumption.
12. Use long life OMRON relay
13. Approve: CE

For the money it comes with a 25 amp ssr and a k type tc that I will probably replace since I have some much better ones just sitting in a drawer.
The ssr has the following capabilities.

25A SSR Features:
Reliable SMT technology
High ultra insulation resistance over 50MΩ/500V DC
HIgh dielectric over more than 2.5KV
Low enable current less than 7.5mA/12V DC, compatible with CMOS IC or TTL
Low EMI/EFI & surge by zero cross trigger method
HIgh surge current over 410A/one cycle (60Hz)
High surge voltage duration by snubber circuit

Specifications:
Load Voltage: 24-380VAC
Load Current: 25A
Input Voltage: DC 3-32V
Might be a cool starter PID controller.

I have 2 more similar solutions but this so far is the cheapest that seems to have some features that make it interesting. I will post on the others later today if I get the chance.

So curious what people think about pid controllers that have used them. I know in school i was old told to always design with the kiss principle. (Keep it stupid simple) but blinky light s and controllers are just cool.

[roadgold]

Waygrumpy I think you are on the right track i have considered using the pid for control but if you notice many argue that it will not work due to cycling the element on/off but most people do not understand the concept of fuzzy logic controls.

[Waygrumpy]

i could be wrong but for the price it is a fun experiment.

The price of the watlo's make the plan silly but for 40 dollars or even 100 dollars like another option i am looking at is a cost effective experiment.

Depending on the PID I would think that it can trigger the ssr fast enough to keep the distilate at the column at a controlled temperature. Certainly with a .1 degree control accuracy.

I am not sure but I would love to hear how mulekickers control worked. I think it was him I saw that made the watlo controller.

I think I may order Rikus still automation book as well.

[MuleKicker]

Grumpy. I did use watlows, and from my experience, they seem to be the best. They have the most programming options, plus they are what I am most knolegable. Watlow SD series, such as the P/N SD3C-HCAA-AARG. It runs on 100-240V, has dc output (controlls ssr) and alarm/ manual control settings. I put them into manual mode, on variable time base. this puts the controller into % output. you control power output by percent. There is a temp input that you can set to .1 c/f. you can then set it to say, completely shut down if temp goes over, say, 78.3C. I have installed an amp meter on these to see what output current looks like. I cant explain it, but in manual mode set to variable time base, it was as smooth as you will need to distill. I have sold 15-20 of these units set up to memebers here, and the ones I talk to love them.
Important to note, if you do not put the controller into manual mode, it just chases the set temperature, which we know, doesnt work for distillation.

[Waygrumpy]

Mule kicker

There is no question at all that the watlo and the Omega controllers are the cadillac.

They are a bit pricey though. What type of coin are you dropping on them?

I worried that the logic in the pid may be a bit tough to work with but my thought is with 2 elements I can put an alarm limit in on element 2 to shut it off when i get close to boiling. That will allow me to run up fast then shut off and give me control after that. So one step is automated so to speak.

I can use an omega tc that has 2 outputs. This would let me use one tc to feed both controllers.

The second controller would then work in a manual mode, timer mode or in the pid set a max power out to not allow it to run away.

Are you feeding your signal into a ssr or is your controller able to put out a control current that will work a pulse wave controller on a ssr? I guess I can look this up?

By working with a couple of these cheap controllers i would also have a visible temperature readout.

You are right a cheap current meter thrown in line might show me a lot. I had originally thought about putting in 2 test points that I can just throw a fluke multi meter if I do not want to dedicate one of them stick in a 5 dollar multimeter in ac current in line to get the reading.

[MuleKicker]

Cheap watlow

I have worked with the cheap chineese units, i dont like them one bit. I know its a matter of personal preference, or what your willing to put up with. The logic / programming options are so bass akwards, and the buttons push like shit. Maybe minor, If you really want to go cheap im sure you can work around it. Those watlows I linked above are pretty cheap, and I know they work awesome. I have bought some from that guy. If ya go with the chineese ones, keep us posted on how it turns out for ya.

Is there any reason why you want to run 2 elements? one 5500w is all ya need. Be less complicated I think. Unless you cant do 220v?

Oh, I believe, (if you get the controller with dc output) it pulses a 5 or 9v dc signal if I remember right. There are also some models that output a 4-20ma signal. If you get the right ssr, (I believe crydom makes it, 4-20ma input. phase angle controller?) The high voltage is phase angle controlled. They are spendy though, I dont think it was cost effective over a dc output pid and regular 3-32v ssr.

[Waygrumpy]

OK I may have the solution.

The first element. I get one of the 40 dollar kits I talked about earlier. It will just shut off the element when to wash has ramped from from room temperature to almost boiling.

I get the same kit and run it in manual but this time I add in the ssrman-1p that Mule kicker talked about way earlier in the post> it accepts a 4-20 ma input for a controller which most pids use. This gives the extremely consistent temperature control that we are all after. So for less then 125 dollars we get a PID controlled first element and a pwm controlled second element. If we are using only one element the entire thing is about 75 dollars. Seems like a good deal and I think covers all of what we are shooting for.

This should give us all the control we want for about a hundred dollars less then just a single watlo. Maybe not a cadillac setup but I think meets all the requirements we are talking about and cheap for what it is. . Tell me what you think and let me know if I am on the right track.

[Waygrumpy]

Cheap watlow

Is there any reason why you want to run 2 elements? one 5500w is all ya need. Be less complicated I think. Unless you cant do 220v?

That is exactly correct. Between the dryer the air conditioner and the hot tub I have used all 220 vac circuits and my service is 150 amps and it is too full to add another circuit.

I guess I could tie into the hot tub or dryer but when I do that..... well suffices to say I am married and the wife is not too fond of that sort of stuff.

[Waygrumpy]

I was sitting here chatting with one of the engineers in my office and he brought up an interesting idea here as well

On another account has anyone looked at controlling the condenser with temperature or humidity sensors. Increasing the cooling water if until no humidity is detected at some point in the condenser. This would be easy with a simple pic micro-controller and a humidity sensor. I am sure i have some of both in my desk and if not neither is crazy expensive. I would have to find a reasonable solenoid valve or stepper motor to control the flow but not an issue that is just a bit of homework.

I guess we could also use a similar temp controller and use temperature to determine if the condenser has cooled enough.

Ok just spit balling but it is an interesting idea.

basically the thought is start with an expected setpoint. Wait .. check for temp humidity.. control for more flow if needed..... wait to stabalize... control for more flow . rinse and repeat. We would obviously find the point that the water is controlled. if we were to take a spike in temperature it would constantly be checking so it could adjust for it at the very least it could let us know if there was a drift.

Just a thought.

[maheel]

I was sitting here chatting with one of the engineers in my office and he brought up an interesting idea here as well

<word snip>

.

Way G do you have a still built ?

if no i suggest build the still and run it without temp control 1st

your not "wasting" your time on theory "but".... IMO your thinking about things that are not going to "help" make a better product

pids will work but phase angle / variac style is easier and works exactly how is needed

having a pid / ssr on and alarm at X temp to shut down a element at say 65'c is a good idea to reduce power
but i reckon you should try the "tried and proven" methods prior to going to extreme controls

not saying your wrong or trying to dismiss the ideas or trying to upset you, just think a operational still will show you whats needed faster than thinking about theory

[Waygrumpy]

OK i am about to vent a bit.

Why in the he world is it if someone brings up a different idea in these forums they get asked if they have a still or to use a proven recipe. I really thought this was an open forum to discuss different methods of doing things and to share ideas, concepts and sources. Well that is what I thought. Are my ideas or theories wrong?

I work in the semiconductor industry we use bubblers, vacuum distillation systems, annealing, diffusion as a part of what I do for a living. I hold a bachelors in Electrical engineering and masters in chemical Engineering and information Systems so it is not that I am going about these ideas with no background. I have 10 engineers working for me 3 with doctorates in engineering. We are working on this project as a kind of fun excursion.

There is a lot of good information here and I guess I will go back to being a lurker and not contribute new thoughts in any way since they are obviously frowned upon and if things are not done the same way they have been done for years they obviously are wrong.

For your information I have read this site for years. Built several simple stills. Have my permits for ethanol production been brewing for about 15 years.

Do I know how to work the Boka I am in the process of building no. If you build a new one do you know how it works exactly? No, but when you go to build things I assume you put a plan in place. Think about it research it etc.

I have watched and the new people are shunned. Knowledge appears to based off of number of posts. I had a post pulled down that did not break any of the rules of this site or I would not have posted it.

I asked about pressure in one of my posts, I am used to working in a vacuum or in small stills and since I have made one much bigger I was worried and wanted to ask a question. Instead I was told to go read.

Ok end of vent.

So to answer your question our groups knowledge is not just theory. We are theorizing in how to improve what has historically been done and how to integrate it in a system we are working on. I am not going to spend 30 dollars on parts that do not even give me a readout when I can spend 40 and increase my functionality.

If we all relied on doing things the tried and true way we would be doing copper pot stills over a fire at night waiting for the revenuers to come. Discussions and new ideas have innovated what is a traditional hobby and taken us from brewing to pot stills to reflux stilss to vacuum stills etc.

So IMO telling assuming we are all stupid is a bit insulting.

[Waygrumpy]

I was sitting here chatting with one of the engineers in my office and he brought up an interesting idea here as well

<word snip>

.

pids will work but phase angle / variac style is easier and works exactly how is needed

If you read my notes I intend to have one of them work with a phase angle , triac style by feeding the current from the output of PID to a ssrman-1p . This gives me the control we have all discussed the other is just to shut off the element so that control is not necessary not going to waste time money or add the point of failure or an ssrman-1p.

[MuleKicker]

Grumpy, I understand you want to add add these cool automated gadgets to your still. Don't get the horse in front of the cart. Learn how to distill manually first. Lots of folks come here with the same idea as you have here, and no real experience distilling. I'm not calling you dumb, just saying your getting ahead of yourself. Your gonna spin your wheels.
Start with the basics.

[Waygrumpy]

OK if i do not have 3000 posts so I do not know what I am doing. I thought the thread was about temperature control circuits and I chatted on the subject.

Would someone let me know how many posts makes me experienced enough in distillation to chat about stuff?

Lets assume I know nothing about distillation. Do not even know the definition. Well at that point I do not belong chatting and giving advice on that actual part of it. I am posting in discussion about electronics. Sorry I am well versed in that. If the discussion is about electronics or IS I am about as well versed as most anyone.

I chose to take a different approach sorry about that.

In the rules of the forums we should say.

Unless you have over 500 posts or pick a number we do not want to hear from you. If you do post even if the idea is sound are general answer will be do it the way we do or don't do it.

good luck guys I thought I might be helping out and it might be fun to discuss with some people more experienced then I a few different options. If there is failure in the reasoning you could say that but instead you make the assumption I do not know what I am doing.

It is fine I am happy to go back to being a lurker.

It is a shame when a community that says

10. Enjoy the information offered here and share your knowledge with us.

has no desire to do so.

In short if you do not want us posting on subjects say so or restrict it. If you do not want opinions from experts in part of the field say so at least we do not waste our time posting.

Well back to lurking

[Prairiepiss]

OK if i do not have 3000 posts so I do not know what I am doing. I thought the thread was about temperature control circuits and I chatted on the subject.

Well I have over 3000 posts. And I don't know squat. But I will point out a problem with this small portion of your post. No it is not about temperature control circuits. It's about heat control circuits. Or heat input circuits. You don't run a still with temperature control. You run it with how much heat you put into it. The temperature is ever changing dependent of ABV of what's in your boiler. And you have no control over it because the ABV will dictate the temperature. So trying to control the temperature is futal.

But good luck if you like bells and whistles. Have at it. I like them to. But I ain't got none.

[MuleKicker]

Thanks piss for clearing that up. Well grumpy, I see where ya get yer name. Just because I have quite a few posts doesnt say anything except for the fact that I have been here a while. I have seen many folks like your self come through trying to to the same thing. How do ya expect to program a computer device to to the job when you your self dont know how to do it?

Do I know how to work the Boka I am in the process of building, no

I was trying to get ya to see the light. Might as well go back to lurking, cuz you aint gonna get no help talkin like that. Good day sir.

[calicojack]

What parts need a heat sink? the POT and the ssr? or just the ssr?

[Waygrumpy]

On any of the designs that would use an ssr it will need thermal paste and a heat sink.

Thermal paste can be gotten at most any computer store.

The pid will not need a heat sink. it draws little to no current so creates minimal heat.

I am doing some internal drawings of what we are going to try and buy if you want them let me know in a PM and I will be happy to send them. They will be in a dwg formmat but if you want them in pdf or a graphic let me know.

I am doing 2 circuits though 1 that may and or may not control as well using strictly a 25 amp ssr and one that will do better using phase angle control. Both elements will be controlled by a temperature controller. It will be kind of fun seeing how much difference there is.

it will be fun to play with but I would tend to think mulekicker is correct about having to use it in manual control or your temps will chase your power for a good long time really goofing things up. But in manual control you should have very clean control of your element.

Well let me know in PM. I should have the drawings done tonight and be ordering the parts Monday AM.

[maheel]

:
What parts need a heat sink? the POT and the ssr? or just the ssr?

just the SSR or phase angle psr-module needs the heat sink

or if it was triac based the triac needs the heat sink

bit of thermal paste between them also needed (some say zinc cream (sunscreen) will work ?) on both triac or SSR type setups

i used a heat sink and fan from a old PC on my PSR-25, powered the fan with a mobile phone charger @ 5 volts DC
fan may have been overkill

run the earth right to the boiler if your element is only a 2 prong (no earth) one...

[maheel]

I was sitting here chatting with one of the engineers in my office and he brought up an interesting idea here as well

<word snip>

.

pids will work but phase angle / variac style is easier and works exactly how is needed

If you read my notes I intend to have one of them work with a phase angle , triac style by feeding the current from the output of PID to a ssrman-1p . This gives me the control we have all discussed the other is just to shut off the element so that control is not necessary not going to waste time money or add the point of failure or an ssrman-1p.

sorry WG must have missed the PA you mention

i dont have 3000 posts either, and i too was just giving an opinion this is a epic 64 page thread and i guess i was just saying what works well for me (and was the easy option)

mate build your still and power control, post some results and pics be good to see them with it up and running

[Tater]

Everyone Lets stick to topic

[FortyNiner]

So, got rained out of work today and finally had some time to mount the heat sink on my router controller. I know that a lot of y'all don't think that a router controller is the best way to go, but I happen to have one already that we use for custom carpentry for my residential construction business, and it seems to be working fine for Prairie Piss.

I opened the case up to have a look inside and drill holes to mount/ground the heat sink. Inside is an electronic device that looked an awful lot like the triac that is discussed in this thread. So I googled the numbers on it and sure enough, it's a 600V, 40A triac made by SC microelectronics, same as available from mouser. Now I know nothing about electronics, so I'm posting some pictures of the guts of this thing to see if any of you experts can ID whats inside and tell if it's similar or same as what people have been building here. What I have is readily available from Amazon for about $30, and might a useful alternative for the electronically challenged members out there. It comes with a 3 position switch (Full power, off, variable power), a 5foot cord and a 20 amp fuse.

There are 4 things that i think are resistors, and one white ceramic looking thing that I have no idea about. Can you electronics guys help?
Also, I mounted the heat sink by tapping 2 threaded holes and screwing it to the controller. is this good enough or do I need thermal paste to make it work? I ground both parts flat to get maximum contact between the parts for heat transfer. Thanks

[Prairiepiss]

I would use a little heatsink grease. Looks good.

[rad14701]

FortyNiner, I am familiar with that router controller and it is definitely more durable than the less expensive units which people have had problems with... And although I can't make out the actual circuitry it appears to be similar to other basic phase angle controller designs described in these forums... After all, there are only so many different designs that can be inexpensively constructed... I've built most of them and they all have various strengths and weaknesses... Adding the extra heat sink should help extend the life of that controller...

[Long live Popcorn]

After buying a PID it looks like most people are in favor of Phase Angle. Since I have it already I am going to try it out. If ethanol boils at 173 and water at 212 what temp it a good starting point to set the PID too. Thanks all of you for all the excellent info on the forum. Many hours of reading to be had.

[MuleKicker]

After buying a PID it looks like most people are in favor of Phase Angle. Since I have it already I am going to try it out. If ethanol boils at 173 and water at 212 what temp it a good starting point to set the PID too. Thanks all of you for all the excellent info on the forum. Many hours of reading to be had.

Short answer is " It wont work."
Why wont it work? This is why

[Prairiepiss]

After buying a PID it looks like most people are in favor of Phase Angle. Since I have it already I am going to try it out. If ethanol boils at 173 and water at 212 what temp it a good starting point to set the PID too. Thanks all of you for all the excellent info on the forum. Many hours of reading to be had.

Short answer is " It wont work."
Why wont it work? This is why

Or he could just read the page before this one in this thread. And even your post at the top of the page he posted on.

[Long live Popcorn]

I did later find that the temp changes as the ethanol percentage changes. Sorry for wasting you time. This is a rude forum. Please delete my account. After you have a drink and mellow out

[rad14701]

I did later find that the temp changes as the ethanol percentage changes. Sorry for wasting you time. This is a rude forum. Please delete my account. After you have a drink and mellow out

Suck it up, Buttercup... Independent research is mandatory, not optional... Who was wasting who's time here...???

[FortyNiner]

I ran my controller set up yesterday, a 20amp, triac based router speed controller with a heat sink grafted on. I am happy to report that it worked well. As the product literature stated, it will only control 10-80% of full power when in variable mode, and isn't particularly linear, but after playing around and finding the sweet spot, it did what I asked of it. I had no heat build-up issues, but this is probably because I left it in front of the fan I use for my condenser cooling system, as you can see in the picture. There are some old motorcycle radiators mounted on the other side of the fan that the condenser water flows through. It was cool to the touch for the 8 hours that it was in variable mode.

An appealing part of this hobby is making my own equipment, but I don't really have the tools or knowledge for electronics fabrication, so this store-bought controller was right for me and might be a good solution for others like me. I got it at Woodcrafters, a woodworking tool supplier, and it's also on Amazon for around $30. Its known as the RSC-20. I did add a heat sink from an old computer, but that was more metal fab than electronics.


On another note, some of you need to get a thicker skin! I'm pretty new here and some established members can be hard us new guys. Maybe it's tough love or some are just skeptical. Get over it. You can learn a lot here. To put in terms that a drinker can relate to, this forum is like a bar. There are the regulars, maybe a few surly drunks, whatever. You don't just walk into a new bar (especially one with an established crowd) and find instant acceptance. Come in, have a drink, look around and find your place, make some friends, or go on to another place. That's my 2 cents.