Newbie not getting the proof I was expecting??

[Beerswimmer]

Newbie here, I have a reflux still I bought from milehi and I didn't quite get the proof I was expecting. I had 7 gallons of DWWG that I put in and ran it at 180F in reflux and the proof came out at 164. The water hoses were cooling the tower down so much I had to turn the water way down to just more than a trickle to get the temps up. The 2x30 inch column was packed with tightly rolled copper mesh all the way to the reflux part that I left open.

What am I doing wrong here? I thought it would come out much higher than 164 proof.

[Fester]

Hi Beerswimmer, I'm not too sure about your particular column still because I always made my own but your i can offer a few thoughts based on my stills..
1) power level of boiler is too low. can you increase the power to your boiler? don't go crazy with the boiler heat but it sure sounds like it is underpowered to me.
2) copper mesh too tightly packed. remove it and re-roll it so that it feels like a rolled up sock. hard to explain this but I made exactly this mistake with my first reflux still. Don't let the packing extend all the way up to or above the take-off tube. Keep it about an inch under it. Packing is a bad term, I think. Don't pack it tight.
3) you should not need a hugh amount of water circulating through your cooling coil. Just enough to knock the vapor down so it doesn't escape from the top of the column. I know, that ain't exactly reflux theory but after you work your packed column still a few more times you'll see what I mean.

If you got 164 proof on your first run then I think you did OK! You are just learning your new still and no doubt will be getting 190+ proof very soon, if that's what you want. Take everything that you collected and add that back to the boiler. Add about that same amount of fresh water and try it again. Give these suggestions a try and I really think you will do OK.
Sorry I can't help much with the temperature but I don't know where its mounted on your still. Ideally it would be as close as possible to the vapor take-off and not touch anything else like packing or condensate dripping down from the cooling head. When your still is running right, the thermometer will be very steady during the entire heart run. Mine would read 174 but that is mine. If I bought another thermometer, it might read a degree or two different. Whats important is that it is steady. The instant the hearts finish and the tails start coming the temp begins to climb slightly and I start collecting tails, if I want them, in another jar.
Fester

[Beerswimmer]

Thanks! My thermometer is right above the take=off tube, about an inch or so. I only get 1-2 drips per second until I increase the temps to about 177-180. Myabe I should just go slower? The water coming out the hose is only about 38F! so it cools things like crazy! I'm looking to make some extremely pure vodka for my wife who doesn't want my creations to have any flavors. I think she's a little scared! I'll be re-distilling it in a bit this time with looser packing!

[Dnderhead]

the slower you run the higher the ABV and more pure it is going to be. you have to lurn your still to see what works best for you.
you can just add that to the next run . I thank many on hear do several striping runs, deluting to 40-50%,then a sperits run, that makes for even cleaner product with a faster take off rate.

[Fester]

Are you using any column insulation? It makes a lot of difference. Even a slight draft of wind on an un-insullated column could cause the entire vapor equilibrium to go haywire and callapse.
You'll spot this if you are getting a good output then nothing and then a good output again. At least with Vapor Management (VM). Maybe you have Liquid Management (LM)?
If your thermometer is placed about an inch above the vapor take-off then that could explain why you are getting a slightly high reading on your still during the hearts.
One or two drips per second for a 2" still is just not right. You should be getting a thin, mostly unbroken, stream of at least 180 proof from your rig.
I really suspect the packing because that was the fix for me. I "packed" it in just too tight. And I ran without insulation. After I fixed both of these issues, I never had another problem with it.
It is possible that your cooling head is just so damn good that you only need the barest trickle through it. If so, I am envious. I don't think your still is in almost total reflux (sending almost everything back down the column) because if that were the case you would have much higher proof distillate.

(And of course the cooling coil does not touch the column packing or the take-off tube, right?)

Can you post a link to the page that describes your still?

Fester

[olddog]

Let's start at the begining, what was the SG of your wash before distilling

[kiwistiller]

Pretty sure it is a cooling management column.

[Beerswimmer]

Here's a pic of my still, don't pay attention to the hoses:


The water in our tap comes out at 38F according to the thermometer I have that gets that cold. I re-packed the column a lot looser this time, and added the distillate to the boiler plus water to bring it to 60 proof. This will be the second distillation. Maybe it just needs to be run once more to get more pure? I'll see how this goes.

[Fester]

Wow. The vapor take-off is ABOVE the condenser head. Interesting.
I'm gonna have to think on this one a might. Not too sure how to work it.
Two ways come to mind.
1) I think I would only use water to the head until the column has come into equilibrium and the heads are worked well into the column and out of the wash. Maybe reflux for about 1/2 hour. Then shut off the water to the head completely and and just use my column packing and column height for the reflux action. Power input to the boiler would determine purity from then on.
2) I would route the cooling hoses to provide hot (or very warm) water to the cooling head.
Cold water would go into the bottom of the liebig condenser and exit the top of the liebig. A hose from the top of the liebig to the input side of the cooling head. Then a hose from the discharge side of the cooling head to the drain. With this configuration, the 2 variables could be matched... power to the boiler and cooling water through the liebig that will supply warm water to the cooling head. Increased cooling water to the liebig will provide more reflux and decreased water would provide faster product take-off.

I vote for number 2.

Are you running your still as shown in your picture or is it configured as described in number 2?

Fester

[Beerswimmer]

The picture has it as I thought it should be hooked up: water goes into the cooling head bottom, comes out at the top, then goes into the bottom of the leibig and out the top of the leibig.

I now have it running where the water goes into the top of the cooling head, out the bottom, into the top of the leibig, and out the bottom.

It'll be producing here shortly. I'll toss the first 200ml and then do a reading on what comes out after.

[Fester]

I really think that number 2 is the right way to wire this puppy.
heated water from the liebig will not overpower the cooling head.
hitting that cooling head with that cold water is causing too much reflux. the product just cannot get past it.
if your configuration does not produce results, just turn off the power to the boiler and re-arrange the hoses.

Fester is pulling for you!
Let me know how it goes.

[Beerswimmer]

OK will do! The temp is holding at 160F right now. I might have to turn up the heat. I'll give it another 30mins with the heat up a little, if no good, then I'll swith to #2!

[kiwistiller]

Yeah thats not right. you want to set it up the way fester described.

[Hawke]

Those are basicly a CM (Cooling Management) design.
I would add a T and a couple of valves to control water to both condensers. Input should be into the bottom of the product condenser and the top of the reflux condenser to provide proper counter-flow.
Use enough flow to the reflux jacket so that you get no product out. Run it this way for about 30 minutes after it starts boiling, then turn down the water flow to the reflux until you get a slow drip of product. Once you have collected the fores and heads, turn the reflux down a bit more for collecting hearts at a decent rate.

[rad14701]

With that setup a head temperature of 180F should, in fact, be producing in the 82 %ABV/164 proof range...

Using a coolant splitter to independently control the liebig and reflux jacket would help greatly and reduce coolant usage...

[Fester]

Hawke nailed it. His way will give you complete control of the liebig and the reflux head.
Something like this?

[Beerswimmer]

OK, after about 45 minutes of fiddling around I turned it off and re-routed the hoses the way that Fester said to. The temp is staying steady at 176F and there is a steady dripping stream. The water coming out of the top reflux chamber is 136F. The distillate is 166 proof 83%. I again tosses the first 200ml before measuring, and tried a sample after I measured. It smells a touch yeasty, and tastes a bit like sugar with a big burn.

[Beerswimmer]

I'll see about getting some splitters tomorrow after work.

[kiwistiller]

ok there is something wrong. that still definitely should be putting out ~90%. is your alcometer accurate? test in water. are you measuring at the correct temperature? if the distillate is too warm / cold this can throw you off.

[Fester]

Beerswimmer, don't touch that very high proof to your lips without watering it down to about 35-40% first! Very high proof will kill your taste buds for a while.
Just in case you don't know, you should remove the copper packing and boil it in some lemon water to keep it fresh.
I think you are on the right track to enjoying your new still. It is a real beauty. And you are getting a steady stream out now. It will certainly get better and better with more precise control of the cooling water. Please give some thought to insulation also. Play and enjoy!

Keep in touch and let us know how things work out.

Your friend,
Fester

[dixiedrifter]

Sorry but I think milehi sells a crappy outdated coolant management design... but at least the quality is top notch.

[Beerswimmer]

I got out a little over a gallon at 166-158 and then the tails came. The heads are in a heads jar, and the hearts are in jars with coffee filters on them. Tomorrow I'll be slicing up some peaches to put in with them. The tails are still dribbling out.

I got the still because I thought it would be nice to be able to run it as a pot still and then as a reflux. Guess not It's an OK pot still, the rum and UJSSM tasted fine! I just wish I could get it to make some 180+ proof neutral for my wife. Looks like I'm going to have to build a good reflux still so I get as pure as possible

[HookLine]

Sorry but I think milehi sells a crappy outdated coolant management design... but at least the quality is top notch.

Yup.

Dunno why they don't use another design. Maybe there are copyright issues for commercial sellers to deal with.

[Fester]

Nope, don't listen to the experts that i cower down to, listen to me. I think you can do it with the rig you have. Maybe you will need to double distill (or not) and have a really clear wash (or not) and have really good control of the cooling water (definately) - but I'm sure you can do it with the still that you have. I believe you can get super clean vodka with that rig of yours.
Set up the water lines as we talked about with a "Y" connector and 2 valves, put on pipe insulation (cheap!! at Home Depot) and go for a clean wash like rad's Gerber wash http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =11&t=9879 or better yet Winos Plain Ol Sugar Wash http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =14&t=6782 and I think you can do it. Easily. And if the wife is happy - ALL IS RIGHT with the world and in distillingland.
You started with no flow to speak of yesterday.
You got 160+% with a good flow rate just today. Now you are trying for 180 to 190%%. It just aint that far away!

You can do this. Go for it.

[kiwistiller]

I concur, 90%abv should be possible on that still in a single pass. I don't think that you'd need the Y-valves to get there either, though it probably will make it easier. I got 90 in one pass, and 92 in two with this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=11265 (basically the same mechanics of your still but with a mini column). Something like yours might be able to push 92 on the first pass I would have thought. Although it IS a crappy, outdated design, many people use CM stills successfully. One mod that I can think of that will probably improve performance is a centering ring below the condenser jacket. one of the reasons these still designs aren't that great (Aside from the fact that they're fiddly as hell) is the fact they tend to make the reflux flow back down the walls of the column instead of mingling in the center. easy one to fix with a copper reducer cut back and used as a centering ring.

Can you give us a more detailed breakdown of what happens with temperatures in your run? you haven't replied to my question about distillate temp or alcometer accuracy, so I'll just assume they're right for now. are you SURE there is no packing above the reflux condenser?

The 2x30 inch column was packed with tightly rolled copper mesh all the way to the reflux part that I left open.

do you mean the reflux condenser or the product condenser? the reflux condenser on the column definitely should have packing in it. the product take off should be well clear.

We'll work this out!
Kiwi

[rad14701]

Essentially, hitting 90% requires little more than maintaining a head temperature of 174F/79C... That can be controlled by heat input and reflux jacket cooling, within reason... All the more reason to have a coolant splitter installed... And considering how there is not reflux centering, I'd pack the entire length of the reflux column, almost to the top of the reflux jacket...

[Beerswimmer]

I'm positive that there is no packing above the condenser. I leave the top open while I'm packing it to be certain. The temps stayed pretty constant unless I changed the water flow, then it would get too low(158ish) or so hot that vapors came out the leibig. I think with the new hose pouting it may be on it's way. Today I'll be going to the store for insulation, y-valves, and more hose!

[plonker]

hey guys, I know I am missing the point, but why not convert to a VM... sooooo much simpler.. I mean seriously.. why the pain... make it easy..

[kiwistiller]

probably because he purchased the still instead of making it in the first place, so there is probably a good reason, or just isn't good with tools (like me ) Beerswimmer, you DO know that it is bloody fiddly to get these things at 79*C, right? on my old one I'd take a metal butter knife, and just gently knock the tap with it to get the required change. seriously. it is VERY sensitive. if you're making coarse changes, that will be your only problem. but yeah the reflux jacket definitely should be packed.

[HookLine]

Yes, just for the record, it is not that you can't get a drinkable 'neutral' from a CM. But they are very fiddly to run properly, and you can do much better, much more easily, with other designs that are no harder to build.

You will improve control of CM a lot by installing a constant pressure valve on the coolant input line, and using a fine control flow valve. (Put pressure valve before the flow valve.)