turbo wash distillers vs the rest

[marc83]

Hi everyone,
Just having a bit of a rant really,I have been Brewing and distilling for a couple of months now,using turbo yeasts etc,now from what i have read on this forum over the past few weeks it seems to me that the people who use this method are almost shunned or singled out because they dont make their spirits the "proper" way.I initially shrugged it off when first reading such posts but i thought i would like to say something.it kinda pisses me off,when i do see a topic that is relevant to me i click on it,check out the question or problems that some might have,then see a rather repetitive reply pop up almost every time,ie using inferior turbos scoff scoff scoff etc.
I thought this forum was supposed to be for all types of home distillers?just because some of us choose to use turbo yeasts and make neutral spirits etc it doesnt make you any better because you dont use a turbo and you make cuts and whatever.I'l be honest and say that i have no idea about the other methods but what i use works for me and i get a very nice outcome.the most typical thing i see on here is someone asking the good people out there if they have come across a good gin,bourbon or rum essence,and the answer?someone replying that you should make it the proper way and be done with essences etc etc.Now excuse me if im wrong but i do believe that the question was asking about which essence people prefer,really winds me up.that is merely one of the many things i have read on here,surely im not the only person on here that feels this way.Is this forum catered more for the non-turbo distiller?im hesitant to ask questions anymore because i can just about predict one or two responses.
I could go on and on but i wont,feel free to dismantle what ive said or prove me otherwise or back me up,whatever,have a go.
thanks for reading my rant.

[bencornish]

Sounds like your pretty passionate about your Turbo’s Marc83.

I used to use turbos all the time and thought that was it for many years – but I always still purchased my Vodka from the shop..I used my neutral for all others. 
I joined this group when i was on a quest for ‘Grey Goose’ quality vodka.. and wanted to know what i was doing wrong..
I found what you were saying aswell ... however before i served judgement, i gave it all a run and decided i would make my own judgements...

I must admit, ive used the Tripple Distilled Turbo’s before (The ones with the liquid carbon you put into your wash) and ive pulled out pretty good quality.
I found you have to use clearing agent and also Carbon to get the good quality for vodka.. However for Essence mixes, ive quite often not used carbon and its been fine and un-noticeable. There also seems to be some passionate people about the non use of Carbon on here too..
I find carbon use the final tweaking to a awesome neutral. But hey thats my opinion.

I started using the DWWG recipe for general neutral and found it to be slightly better than the Turbo i mentioned above. I usually don’t need to carbon filter it, but i still do – i can tell the difference..
Ive also used the UJSM recipe for Scotch and was quite happy with it. I also used Pugsi’s recipe for Rum.. its been good – but rum is a whole new area to me, so im still perfecting that.

Major differences i found was..
The Neutral difference:
Since ive been doing it for a fair while, and trying new ways and new recipes, i notice more and more finer changes as time goes on with my Brew.
Most of these changes are around the distilling itself and not the brew.. I think brew is only upto 30 percent.. Distilling art is definitely 70 percent of the perfection area.
When i go back to some turbo neutral on the shelf from way back, I can tell the difference – but its not huge. And im a vodka fan, so its certainly easier to tell differences in Vodka.. however essences and other mixes, its dam hard to tell the differences between good DWWG or good Turbo..

Costs:
Its certainly cheaper using DWWG and UJSM then any turbo combination ive seen. If price isn’t your thing then who cares... As for me its not cost, its the fun and learning curve in the perfection of doing it.
These recipes certainly yield less then turbo’s but who’s greedy ? – just get a bigger distill like i did 

Whatever works for you – Seriously.. if your happy with it.. keep rolling.. but don’t knock it till you try it... Judge/compare for yourself..

[olddog]

I am sorry that you feel that way, the idea of this forum is so that we can enhance and improve the methods of home distilling. Many of us including myself started off with the brewshop turbo/ filtering and essence method until we find out there is a better way. In fact I still have many essences sitting on the on the shelf unused for a long long time. If you wish to take the time to research the forum, you will find recipes that are simple to make ,and only require items available at the local supermarket, which do not produce the known off flavors that you get with Turbo, do not need filtering, and do not use essences containing propyline glycol (think antifreeze) to flavor our spirit.
If you do not wish to enhance your knowledge that is your perogative, just carry on with the brewshop product and be happy, its your choice, but if you wish to take the next step to produce a better spirit, we are here to help, thats what a forum is all about.
It's your choice.


OD

[LWTCS]

Point well taken marc83.

I think the two responces are fair and resonable.

There is also information on the forums about how one can get the better batch when using a turbo.

The larger percentage of the negative turbo comments are from members that used them, tried "another way" and concluded that the "another way" was more suitable for their taste buds, for availability and their pocket book.

No matter. Glad u'r getting the likker result you require.

[rad14701]

marc83, if you have never tried a wash other than a turbo yeast wash you really aren't qualified to have much of an opinion although I do respect your right to have one... If you're happy squandering your money at the brew shop on turbo yeast, clearing agents, carbon filtering, and essences (fake flavor), go for it... If you're happy wasting extra time cleaning up inferior spirits rather than making clean spirits from the start, go for it... Perhaps your opinion about turbo washes is due to never having produced inexpensive, smooth, clean, spirits without fussing... Turbo washes are not a shortcut, aside from the recipe ingredients aspect, because what you gain on the front end is lost on the back end...

[marc83]

Its not that im totally passionate about turbos,they work for me,and what i get out of them is great,bencornish you say you found the same when you first came on here,im not passing judgement on people that dont use turbo yeasts,what i was getting at was the way it turbo users questions are always met with one way or another someone telling them to ditch turbos all together,but cheers for your comment.
old dog thanks also,if i do step up a notch and try other methods the info on here would be greatly appreciated.Ive looked through the forums and yes i know there are simple recipes out there,i will try one day.hey im still green at this so im taking my time.
I know what your saying LWTCS about the negativity about turbos are from members who used to use them and found a better alternative,but when a question is answered by these people concerning turbos or essences etc,its sometimes not answered,only bagged.
I thought the way im doing it now was quite easy,non-time consuming,and quite cheap.so will be very suprised at how much easier,even less time consuming and cheaper it will be doing it the other way.i only know one way so im in no way bagging the other methods,i would be silly to do that on here,just dont want to be brushed aside if i have a question.Im sure that anyone on here who does use turbos knows that there are other methods,but each to their own i say.
Im have been interested in trying a tomato paste wash for some time now as it seems like the easiest to try out,so it may be a step towards the "light" huh.if its as good as ive read,then hey i guess there will be no turning back,will see.
thanks again,at least my typing is getting better.

[Dnderhead]

Turbos is much like "cooking out of a box" not much room for improvement, if you went to a cooking forum and asked how to improve mack and cheese out of a box they whould tell you the same, ditch the box and make from scratch. "out of a box" is what it is and not much you can do about it.If your satisfied live with it ,if not then change. If you insist on "out of the box cooking" then there's not much we can do.

[mrhooch]

Yup, the tomato paste wash (birdwatchers) is an almost no fail recipe, and for the same price as a packet of the turbo yeast, you get ALL the ingredients, including the sugar. I'm going to be on my tenth and eleventh batch of it as soon as I clean my carboys out.

It is very alluring to see the promised 18 to 21% ABV, but the reality is high ABV means a long time waiting for the fermentation to complete, and then there is always the risk that it sticks (stops fermenting) at some point leaving you with a wash with some sugar in it.

So if you want easy, make sure your batch starts around 1.08 - 1.09 SG, which for me means 4 kg of sugar in my 18.9 L carboy. I've tried 6kg of sugar, just to have it become stuck, and I've tried 5kg, and waited the extra two weeks waiting for it to finish, and while I got a bit more alcohol out of it, I also got a lot more tails.

There are a lot of scammers out there who promise a lot, and fail to deliver on their promises. Think of the turbo "air still". Take a $100 water distiller, slap a "Air Still" label on it and sell it for $150++.

Nobody is out to get you, just trying with maybe a heavy word or two to keep your $$$ in your wallet.

Hooch.

[theholymackerel]

Well Marc, I'm sorry ya get so upset, but there really isn't anythin' that can be done about yer complaint.

Everyone here gets their say up to the point that they lose it and start cussin' folks out.

If ya make a post, and get a reply ya don't like... too bad. Just ignore it.

[rednose]

I never liked to do or spend more than I absolutely have to in all tasks in my life.

Also learning from the scratch with traditional materials will give more versatile possible products.

If you have a bad tennis teacher from the beginning it’ll be very difficult to become a first class tennis player.

I will never use turbos after a 5 gal wash that turned out like shit.

[Kentucky shinner]

im with you Red... I did a 5 Gallon batch that taste like shit also... never again... TURBOS just suck and that is all there is to it... I had a ole timer try some shine made with turbos and he actually threw up... what I am making now he says is some of the best shine he has ever drank,which is the same many others have also said.
Maybe you should try something out of the treid and true repcipe before you slam us on here marc83

[Kentucky shinner]

hey marc, its like your making roman noodles and were making home made noodles,,, GET IT!

[Bagasso]

I actually think there are two issues here. One being the turbo washes and the other being the essences.

As far as the turbos go they are what they are. Like Dnderhead said it's like "cooking out of a box". They have their own instructions laid out to give what their producer deems the most efficient use of their product. Good thing about them is that they are fast and are gonna give you consistent results even if many here don't like those results. The thing to remember is that if you start adding things to your wash along with the turbos you are altering that speed and consistency then you may as well go with cheaper yeast and there are some recipes on the forum that are also very fast as well as clean.

Bottom line: if your gonna use turbos then follow the instructions as provided by the manufacturer and don't ask the guys here for tips cause they just don't use them. If you are so inclined them experiment for yourself and once you have some results that are worth sharing you could start a thread on "working with turbos". That would help fill that empty space in the forum.

Essences are something different. Many here have used them (I have not) and some have liked some and disliked others and others still have disliked them all.

I see you have found the "Re: Store Bought Flavoring- Whats hot & whats not" thread. This is the place for forum members to give their opinion on essences they have tried. The problem is that when someone starts a new thread asking for essence recomendations the members of the forum, in an honest desire to help, point out the flaws (their dislike) of essences and encourage the person doing the asking to try doing it "from scratch".

As I see it, that is not what they are asking for and although it is well intentioned I would say it is a bit off topic. Anyway if they are bitten by the bug they will more than likely waste enough time on these forums to come across the information to do it the "proper way" when they feel the need to grow.

I think that the problem is the search function on the forum. The inability to search "common terms" means new members can't find the answers to "common questions" and we get the same questions posted over and over. I know that the homesite has a google search up in the corner but it is not available if someone links to the forum from an external search.

[marc83]

You're right bagasso,i have folund the search function not that helpful,but just searched and searched and sometimes eventually found what i was looking for,but not all the time.
Going by the responses so far i think its fair to say that anyone else who uses the same methods as me,ie turbos and essences,obviously go elsewhere when it comes to forums,i was at least hoping for one other to back me up here,oh well,i can take the criticism.
Im not "slamming" your methods guys,sorry if you take it that way,its the way some of the "inferior" questions are answered,thats my whole gripe.
Like i have said,im still green at this,So i feel i can cut my teeth on this by using the turbo type yeast,im not caught up in the greedy more % trap,im actually taking my sweet time with them.I might have to hurry up and get my tomato paste ingredients together and get it on,see what all the fuss is about
As for following instuctions on the yeast,i started doing that to the letter,slowly have been making alterations,all in the name of experimentation.just to see what i get out at the end.
It seems like im pushing shit uphill on this thread,i knew what type of comments i would receive but i had to get it off my chest.
Cheers
Oh and im going to find a good tomato paste recipe on here right after i click submit,might even put it on today if i get a chance.

[rad14701]

I know that the homesite has a google search up in the corner but it is not available if someone links to the forum from an external search.

Every page in these forums has the same HD Google Search at the bottom of the site header...

[bencornish]

Marc,

I find this post Gold!!
Has all the link points for green questions - i quite often refer back to hear for specifics/quantities and what not.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =15&t=5166

Check out Q4

[Bagasso]

I know that the homesite has a google search up in the corner but it is not available if someone links to the forum from an external search.

Every page in these forums has the same HD Google Search at the bottom of the site header...

Been coming on here for years and had never taken notice of that cause the text box right above it always sucks the pointer into it. I stand corrected.

[mrhooch]

This is what you can get out of birdwatchers wash.

My version (which fits in a 18.9L carboy) is:

1 large can (or 3 small cans) of tomato paste
4 kgs of sugar
1 tsp of citric acid or lemon juice
1 B complex vitamin crushed and put in a coffee filter (tie it off so the stuff doesn't get out).

Put the sugar and water and citric acid and the crushed vitamin in your pot. Bring it almost to a boil (I try to reach 180, to sterilize it)
Add the tomato paste, swish it around. Pull the bag with the crushed vitamin.

Let it cool to about 100-105, add 2 tablespoons of bakers yeast (I buy the 1 pound bricks of it, under 6 bucks in my neck of the woods).

Put it in your carboy. Keep it fairly warm, 90+, and it will be done in a week.

My reflux still produces this with it.

Hooch

[marc83]

I never knew there was a HD google search link up there,i was always drawn to the box above,good to know,cheers for pointing that out.
Bencornish-thanks for that link,good to know its there.
mrhooch-that is awesome,pretty much what i am intending to use,quantitys etc.I only have a 25L super reflux still,no pot still,will this matter?

I have posted a few\ Q's on the tried and true recipes/birdwatchers thread also.

[mrhooch]

Yup.... You can see my ghetto setup in My first.... under copper porn. It is a reflux still, of the cooling management CM variety. I use a variable flow to the reflux condensor which determines how high my ABV is.

You should be able to run a full batch in your still, I checked it out. Birdwatchers doesn't foam up like the grain based worts.

The first 100 mls or so I keep separate. With my setup I collect the first 50 ml, then crank up the reflux so I get no output for 10 minutes. Then I slowly turn down the reflux until I get the output rate I like. I smell and feel the product coming out until it looses the sharp smell and doesn't feel slippery, which is about probably 100- 150ml more. I collect the rest until my still reads about 200- 204F. Then switch bottles, and run until about 208, then shut down the reflux and run until about 210, in a third bottle.

With 4kgs of sugar, I can pull just under 1.5 liters of 90%, another 5-600 of seconds which don't smell as good as the firsts, and about 1+ liters of tails before I shut down. Check what your carbon filter is made of, 90+% alcohol does really funny things to plastics, you may want to dilute it down to 40% to filter. I personally don't bother carbon filtering anymore, I just air it out, it takes a day or so for some of the esters to leave.

The first stuff off the still keep for burning and solvent, the second bottle may be drinkable depending on your taste, and the tails I keep to toss in a big tails batch.

Hooch.

PS. When it first starts to ferment, all the tomato solids float on the top. Looks like a real mess, once done, all the tomato pulp sinks to the bottom. With bakers yeast, it doesn't clear very quickly, I look at the bubbles on the top of the carboy and when they are done I run the batch. Check red ferment posting by casper for a picture.

[blanikdog]

I didn't even read all the posts because I thought the answer was so obvious. If mark chooses to use turbo yeast, let him go for it. S/he can use powdered doggy doos or anything else if s/he wish.

Mark is lucky to be in the very fortunate situation whereby s/he is free (within reason) to do as s/he bloody well wishes and if we try to advise, s/he is free to ignore said advice and also, free to make posts condemning those who choose to waste their bloody good time advising!!!

Blanik

[kiwistiller]

I only have a 25L super reflux still,no pot still,will this matter?

you may find this useful marc: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 46&t=13264

[marc83]

I didn't even read all the posts because I thought the answer was so obvious. If mark chooses to use turbo yeast, let him go for it. S/he can use powdered doggy doos or anything else if s/he wish.

Mark is lucky to be in the very fortunate situation whereby s/he is free (within reason) to do as s/he bloody well wishes and if we try to advise, s/he is free to ignore said advice and also, free to make posts condemning those who choose to waste their bloody good time advising!!!

Blanik

Thanks for that,should probably read the thread before you shoot me down also,have had an ear bashing already thanks
Am looking into my first BW wash as it happens thanks blanik,thanks for your concern.

@kiwi
Cheers for the link.

Marc

[mrhooch]

People:

We shouldn't forget that all walks of people come here looking for information. I was reminded of that, and a fair number try then learn what works and stick with it. Good or bad. A package of turbo wash with sugar and water will produce the alcohol required for someone to distill it out, pretty brainless. I can't really comment on it, as I couldn't source it, so I ran a variety of washes based on recipes here, in my first attempts to create a wash with enough alcohol to distill out. They all did ferment out with the exception of the batches where I screwed up, and I fixed those.

It is like learning to ride a bike, you end up with a lot of skinned parts and bruises before you finally get it right. Experience is the best teacher.

What I have learned in this hobby is that pushing any kind of yeast and sugar past 14% is not the best idea. Why? It takes just as long to ferment a 15% batch as it will to ferment out 2 batches at 10 - 12 %. At 15% wash, there is a lot more tails and they are not nice. I can't imagine a 18%+ wash, as there must be a lot more tails, as the yeast starts to take shortcuts in fermenting the sugars.

Yes it is frustrating trying to pass on knowledge to someone who has gotten something to work, and is somewhat to reluctant to screw around with something that works. Kinda like the old addage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But if you don't try to improve, then well "If you ain't the lead dog, the scenery never changes"

Hooch.

[rad14701]

Very valid points, mrhooch... The quest for instant gratification and greed are the two alluring factors that steer many in the direction of turbo washes where you just mix it up and you get more yield than standard washes fermented to standard percentages... Sometimes we can toss laziness in as a factor, too... As with most endeavors, shortcuts can lead to adverse consequences...