Yeast nutrient questions.

[Dan Call]

I'm not a rank novice, but I have more questions than answers.

In the interest of getting all grain mashes to ferment more vigorously, I'm considering the following and would like the experts to look at this.

I'd like to use Pugi's yeast bomb with an all grain mash. I cannot find 20-0-0 but have found 34-0-0. Question is, is 34-0-0 okay to use and will Pugi's yeast bomb effect the mash and fermentation in an adverse way? Commercial distillers have very vigorous ferments, and they don't let them run for a week, so I want faster ferments.

Secondly, to reduce the tastes of oils and the results of the pyrolytic effects of cooking on protein heavy corn as it pertains to finished product, I'm going to ferment on strained mash. How should this effect the result?

Thanks, I hopet his is not too redundant. I've read the bulk of this site for the last six years, not continuously mind you.

[rad14701]

A yeast bomb should work just fine with an AG mash... The only thing to watch as far as adding Nitrogen is that too much can cause excessive sulfur and ethyl carbamate production... So, regardless of whether you use 20-0-0 or 34-0-0, you may need to experiment to see what amount best suits your needs... As with most minerals and vitamins in your wash, it's better to have a bit too little than way too much...

[Usge]

As an alternative...you can use commercial "yeast nutrient" product available at most wine/brew shops. I use "Wyeast. It's about 2 bucks for a small pill bottle sized container. I've been using it in my AG ferments just as added insurance because it's cheap and doesn't seem to have any adverse effect or off-flavors.

Here's the ingredient list:
Wyeast Labs' proprietary blend of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, nitrogen compounds, zinc, and trace elements necessary for rapid and complete fermentation.

Dosage is about 1/2 teaspoon per 5 gals. You can pitch it dry or add it to a boil/mash. Or use 1/8 teaspoon in your yeast starter.

Edit: would add, they make a version more suited for beer yeast and one for use with wine yeast. I use the "beer" version for my AG corn/barley.

[Dan Call]

I'm using DAP. Thinking of adding some B6 crushed. I will order some nutrient product, and am familiar with it.

The original question posed for the "mentors" was whether or not I can use the 34-0-0 fertilizer, in limited quantities.

I'm wondering about this whole "mentor" thing......

[Dnderhead]

AG you should not need anything

[Usge]

Sorry Dan... I don't use fertilizer in my ferments...so I can't really speak to that. As I said..seems to me if you need nutrients...there are plenty of alternatives more suited to the task. Dunder says they aren't necessary if you are doing AG — likely because AG already has plenty of nutrients in it. Just because we are mentors doesn't mean we know everything...nor is that even possible to do so. We do the best we can...but are pretty much limited to our own experience, so we depend on each other in regards to diversity of experience to cover bases. But, there are always cracks to be found there. ...so sorry if we didnt' meet your expectations.

I personally feel the advice you've been given is good. (1)...you don't need it for AG, 2) but if you want to use something, there are other alternatives more suited (and cheaper). If you are insistent on using it anyway...there are others here who've used them and can comment or give you advice. The only mention I had ever seen of them was in Rad's Al-Bran recipe. I did the recipe without using them, and using only commercial yeast nutrient and didn't have any problems.


As far as all-grain goes...many here with more experience than me. But I've certainly struggled through bad corn, etc. that makes it an excercise in frustration — low yeild, etc. If you ask me....just my opinion....lots of people tend to go overboard with adding stuff to AG because they struggle with the conversion. They tend to think if they add this or that...it will make things go better (whether it does or doesn't). That's just my opinion.

[rad14701]

The replies form the other members are correct - most AG's don't require added nutrients... Several of the sugar washes utilize them to varying degrees, primarily to insure a rapid growth of the yeast colony for quicker ferments... Even nutrient additives like DAP are just a mixture of vitamins and minerals... Fertilizers are merely a cheaper way of attaining the same minerals found in DAP and other formulations...

The best advice we can give is to try working without additional vitamins or minerals until it can be determined that they are either needed or desired... Then you at least have a base point from which to proceed...

[Dan Call]

Fair enough. I'll save the nitrogen fertilizer for a Pugi type rum recipe. I guess it's just the temptation of a rapidly roiling ferment that tempts every distiller to try and get that results. I've only had it a few times and it is a satisfying feeling.

I'd like to proceed further with the questions. I do appreciate the advice given thus far, was perhaps expecting something more definitive, but as stated I'll just leave it off.

I just today have had great success malting corn. I got a kiddie pool about 6 feet across and took a 6 dollar bag from Lowe's of deer corn and spread about 20 pounds of it out in the pool and added about 3 gallons of water, added water twice last night, and I've got some runners that almost one half inch long and many that are a quarter inch, that's less than 24 hours.

I'm going to halt the growth by burning JD oak chips in a grill and putting the corn on tin foil on the grate.

The question is.....is malted corn already completely converted? Would it help to use alpha and gluco in mashing?

I see this is an economical way to do all grain, and not to have the associated hassles of worrying with conversion, which seems to be my biggest hangup besides on the others.....HA! Advice appreciated. I can't find the thread that stated how converted malted corn is.

[Dnderhead]

first dont put malted grain on grill,it can deactivate the enzymes.next, no its not converted.just it has produced enzymes to do so.
you need to convert by grinding then then holding at 140-150f /60-66c,do this for 1/2-1 hour.then cool to 80f/27c and pitch yeast.

[Dan Call]

So the key in the case of having malted corn on hand is to acheive the strike temperature which I believe is 151 degrees. Hold that for what? An hour, in order for conversion to take place. What is the ratio of malted corn to regular corn in order to convert? I've got 16 pounds of corn almost all of it sprouted at least an eigth of an inch. So I need to grind, heat the unmalted mash, then add the malted and hold at strike temp for a while?

Thanks for answering so quickly.

[rad14701]

What is the ratio of malted corn to regular corn in order to convert? I've got 16 pounds of corn almost all of it sprouted at least an eigth of an inch. So I need to grind, heat the unmalted mash, then add the malted and hold at strike temp for a while?

Corn barely has enough enzymes to convert itself so you're better off using 100% malted corn for a straight corn only mash... The reason folks use malted barley is because it has more enzymes than it requires to convert itself so the excess enzymes convert other unmalted grains...