HOBBY continuous still!

[JaCh]

LAST EDIT - 2013_12_08-11:55

Preface:
For a while I have been pondering how I CAN make a still as compact as possible.
I attempted to do so in this thread /viewtopic.php?f=17&t=43039 but my design wasn't very good and I was met with a lot of criticism.
I now understand the drawbacks of my design and am working on something better.
I will frequently edit this post to keep it up to date with improvements to the design so it is possible for anyone to overview it in it's entirety without scrolling through my outdated information.

Advantages of a compact continuous still:
-Save space/easier to conceal
-Save materials
-Can strip larger washes; therefore allowing use of lower ABV for smaller heads cuts (less heads produced during ferment)

Message to Naysayers:
I understand there is some resistance to the idea of a continuous still for hobby use, however I feel there are some users of this forum who would be prepared to help me.
If you would like me to clarify any of my reasoning for pursuing this project please PM me, if I receive multiple similar PM's I will modify this post to include sufficient reasoning.

Specification:
Essential-
-Must function well as a stripper
-Must remove majority of water content
-Must not scorch the wash
-Must be simple to make
-Must be simple to run
Desirable/Non Essential-
-Must remove majority of tails
-Must be regulated by an arduino uno
-Must remove heads
-Must produce neutral potable spirits without need for further process
-Must be able to be passed off as an essential oil extractor

Materials I have:
-2.5" diameter by about 3.5'
-2" diameter by 2'

Show Spoiler

Boiler Design:
-My aim is for as little ethanol as possible to ever reach the boiler.
-Initially the left section would be charged with water, as the run progresses it would contain spent (/almost spent) wash.
-The right section is for producing steam (using electric element) to heat the initial water charge/spent wash. (This prevents scorching)
-The steam boiler is fed at the top right by used coolant from the reflux column.
-Spent wash/initial water charge is output on the far left.
-Vapors rise into the column to be separated and cause separation of input wash.

Column Design:
-Input wash could be heated by a primary vapor condenser.
-Input wash is introduced towards the top of the column.
-Input wash is distilled as it falls through the column and alcohol rises.
-Input wash is mostly spent by the time it reaches the boiler.
-The column must cause a large amount of interaction between falling wash and rising vapor.
-The column must be under forced reflux.
-Spent reflux coolant will be sent to steam boiler.
-Some tails could be removed towards the bottom of the column.
COLUMN DESIGN IDEA 1:
-Coil at top of column causes main reflux
-Concentric column supports temperature gradient

pactastill_column_1.gif (10.84 KiB) Viewed 8833 times

COLUMN DESIGN IDEA 2:
-Vapor is removed at the top of column.
-Vapor is refluxed below this.
-Wash is preheated by vapor out and reflux coolant.
-Wash is introduced below reflux.
-Falling condensate interacts with rising vapor on perforated plates

pactastill_column_2.gif (13.54 KiB) Viewed 8761 times

Closing Remarks:
Thank you for taking the time to read and contemplate my ideas.
Any feedback received will be considered and modifications/additions to the design will be made to this initial post as they are discussed.

JaCh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Clarification:
TBC

[Tater]

Poster has requested that naysayers send pms rather then posts. His request in a flag on his own post I am not really sure what to do and felt reporting my own post would be the best way of asking the right person for advice.
I explained in my post that if anyone wanted to discuss my motivation or the viability of a small continuous still they should PM me.
I did this so my post wouldn't get derailed, now a well respected member of the community has ignored this completely and derailed my thread.
Should I leave it and hope people don't get put off by the first page of responses?
Should I remove and repost before it gets too many views?

What can I do? I removed all but op posts . please respect his wishes.

[bellybuster]

interesting... can you explain how cuts are managed in a still that has a continuous supply of fresh wash?? I simply don't get it,
thanks

[JaCh]

interesting... can you explain how cuts are managed in a still that has a continuous supply of fresh wash?? I simply don't get it,
thanks

The current design does not include making cuts, it is for stripping large washes for further process.

[bellybuster]

Hmmm, ok then, why not a simple large diameter pot still? Easy cheap and fast. All desirables.
Just trying to see the point of your endeavour
I guess I'm asking what is the point of continuous other than mass production?

[JaCh]

Hmmm, ok then, why not a simple large diameter pot still? Easy cheap and fast. All desirables.
Just trying to see the point of your endeavour
I guess I'm asking what is the point of continuous other than mass production?

I don't have the space for a large still, pintoshine's 6L Kentucky pot still is as big as I can go.
I simply can't strip large washes with that kind of still, the only way I can do so under space requirements is to make a new design of continuous still.
I can't use the design on the parent site due to the space it uses up and after speaking to Rad I hear it's not very effective.

[bellybuster]

OK I get it now, might have included that info on the OP as allot of folks are indeed thinking "Hobby, ya right"

On your boiler... the wash input and spent wash are the same inlet/outlet. How would you have a continuous feed and a continuous dump of spent wash at the same time?

The actual steam generator... I see it as forcing everything out the overflow. The pressure generated will take the path of least resistance and that would be the overflow. I would also include pressure relief safety devices
also with the steam generator, having only 2" or 2.5" I think will create a steam canon. You would need some space for the expansion. Steam occupies give or take 1500+ times the space of water.

I'm interested, purely because, I'm interested. Can you build a continuous still in small form??? Who knows? Can you try? Sure can.

[JaCh]

OK I get it now, might have included that info on the OP

It is in the specification under Essential.

Specification:
Essential-
-Must function well as a stripper
-Must remove majority of water content
-Must not scorch the wash
-Must be simple to make
-Must be simple to run
Desirable/Non Essential-
-Must remove majority of tails
-Must be regulated by an arduino uno
-Must remove heads
-Must produce neutral potable spirits without need for further process
-Must be able to be passed off as an essential oil extractor

On your boiler... the wash input and spent wash are the same inlet/outlet.

The wash input is towards the top of the column, spend wash is ejected where you were discussing. One input. One output.

The actual steam generator... I see it as forcing everything out the overflow.

Yes that could be an issue, I will modify the design to use a smaller steam inlet and ensure there is greater liquid mass between the spent wash outlet than the column.
Do you think this will work?

[bellybuster]

I honestly don't know. I'm trying real hard not to be a "nay sayer". Honestly don't think your idea worth the effort as I don't see a feasible design that will save any space. I get that you are trying to distill example 5 gallons of wash 1/2 gallon at a time continuous but now you have taken the space of your still plus your fermenter. You could simply ferment and distill in the same vessel and there you have your space savings.
Seeing as cuts are impossible with continuous you will then have to do a spirit run, now you have yet another still and vessel. Your space saving continuous still has now cost you more space than regular stilling has too.

My apologies for going the direction you wished it not to. I have no more input for you as I really can't see the point or purpose other than large scale mass production.
Good Luck!!


one last question... Have you ever distilled anything?

[JaCh]

I get that you are trying to distill example 5 gallons of wash 1/2 gallon at a time

I am completely and utterly not trying to do that.
The process is continuous alcohol never reaches the wash boiler.

[bellybuster]

ok, bad wording, if you go back you'll see the next word in that sentence... continuous. I have no idea what the volume of wash is at any one time, how could I?

[bellybuster]

I get that you are trying to distill example 5 gallons of wash 1/2 gallon at a time

I am completely and utterly not trying to do that.
The process is continuous alcohol never reaches the wash boiler.

you will only have a couple feet of column maximum, trust me, alcohol is gonna make it to the boiler. You require height in order to achieve the efficiency required for full distillation. 1.5 inch plates aren't gonna do allot of work for you.

I have just reread your initial post and see you'd like to do all this with a bit of 2" and 2.5"???

As I said, I can no longer see any way to help. I really do wish you well but please look at the safety aspects of creating high velocity steam in small vessels/piping.

[rad14701]

I honestly don't see where this would save any space either considering how the resulting low wines would require a batch distillation to make cuts anyway... And two processes could be trimmed to one using the right still to begin with... I know my initial post was removed before Tater and I traded PM's but I still don't see this as a viable option for multiple reasons...

Are continuous strippers neat to play with...??? From experience, yes, but the fun wears out fast...

[Max_Vino]

JaCh
Much has been written on continuous stills. I see no problem building one, generally speaking a reflux still will produce a purer product however a continuous fractionating still similar to what is used by the larger industrial producers is what your proposing, and will work but with some limitations. Generally speaking most distilleries use (and prefer) a batch still with some reflux.

All you really need is:
1) a holding tank for the wash
2) metering pump or other devise to control the flow
3) steam generating area (chamber, heat exchanger, spinning cone, rotating drum etc.)
4) Fractionating column with take offs and method of refluxing
5) condenser.
In this configuration the area where you can save space is by using a heat exchanger and not a boiler. I once designed a heat exchanger around a Bosch aluminum section using eight strip heaters. (4KW) you can imagine the surface area created inside once the section was sealed.

Max

bosch.jpg (5.35 KiB) Viewed 8610 times

[JaCh]

Max
What you have said makes sense but what modifications/redesigns are you proposing?
Will a novice still be able to build it?

JaCh

[shadylane]

Continuous distillation at the hobby level is a fun experiment. It's a money saver for the Pro's
I've played with a continuous stripping still. I had to baby sit the damn thing constantly.
It turned into a balancing act of power VS reflux VS wash input. And all this without proper instrumentation or automation.
The hardest part was getting a constant amount of wash into the column.
Batch distillation is easier and allows for cuts on the stripping runs.
Having said that I'll shut the hell up and start listening.
Just because it didn't work for me, doesn't mean someone else can't getter done.

[Tater]

I honestly don't see where this would save any space either considering how the resulting low wines would require a batch distillation to make cuts anyway... And two processes could be trimmed to one using the right still to begin with... I know my initial post was removed before Tater and I traded PM's but I still don't see this as a viable option for multiple reasons...

Are continuous strippers neat to play with...??? From experience, yes, but the fun wears out fast...

Never took it that the op asked if it was practical .Way I was reading it was it possible ?

[Max_Vino]

JaCh
I would start with a undersink water heater. You can find these in stainless for about $10 at Goodwill or recycling centers. That will give you a small tank with a heating element...The column is mounted directly above it....from there I would inject your filtered feedstock into the column about 1/3 the way up, allowing it to cascade down over marbles...the heat exchange would take place there. The rising vapor would fractionate it's way up and into a more suitable packing (or plates) with reflux...you would draw the ethanol from near the top...allowing for several additional plates to try to capture the high ends.

The column would be as tall as you want with respect to ultimate purity...which is related to the sophistication of your packing.
This still could be made so that it doesn't look like a still.
Max

[JaCh]

Never took it that the op asked if it was practical .Way I was reading it was it possible ?

Correct, it may not be practical compared to a large batch distillation. However I do not have the space for that and if what I aim to achieve is possible it's practicality is worth overlooking. (IMO)

[JaCh]

It turned into a balancing act of power VS reflux VS wash input.

I propose the best way of running something like this may be as follows:
-Regulate reflux dependent on take off temperature. (automated)
-Regulate wash input rate dependent on take off ABV. (use a parrot) (ABV as high as possible without sacrificing flow rate)

[YHB]

It may clarify folk's thoughts if you could define what you are expecting in terms of output.

What are your definitions of continuous? are you talking hours for a run or days? continuous to me implies 24/7.

What output are you hoping to achieve? You talk about large volumes of wash, how large?

[JaCh]

What are your definitions of continuous? are you talking hours for a run or days? continuous to me implies 24/7.

I'm talking as long as you want for whatever wash size you want. (not too small or its not worth the energy getting the column up to temps)

What output are you hoping to achieve? You talk about large volumes of wash, how large?

I talk about large volumes of wash in the sense that you are not restricted by boiler size (you are in batch distillation) meaning you could make lower ABV (lower heads cut) and larger washes without needing a bigger still.

[rad14701]

But you still need to do a batch distillation to make your cuts... All you have for spirits from the continuous run is low wines that still contain Foreshots, Heads, and Tails, mixed in with the Hearts... So you need another rig to run batches of low wines to make those cuts... Round and round we go...

[JaCh]

But you still need to do a batch distillation to make your cuts... All you have for spirits from the continuous run is low wines that still contain Foreshots, Heads, and Tails, mixed in with the Hearts... So you need another rig to run batches of low wines to make those cuts... Round and round we go...

This has been discussed already and it is in my specification that my design is to be used for STRIPPING.

[rad14701]

But you still need to do a batch distillation to make your cuts... All you have for spirits from the continuous run is low wines that still contain Foreshots, Heads, and Tails, mixed in with the Hearts... So you need another rig to run batches of low wines to make those cuts... Round and round we go...

This has been discussed already and it is in my specification that my design is to be used for STRIPPING.

But if you don't have room...

[JaCh]

But if you don't have room...

I have room for the 6L pintoshine Kentucky pot still I am in the process of building.
For example:
-30L wash
-Stripped to 6L
-Pot stilled to make cuts

[bellybuster]

you also stated as an essential
"must be simple to make"
"must be simple to run"

space saving was another criterium. so far none have been met.

You also stated as a desirable that it
"Must remove majority of tails"
"Must remove heads"
"Must produce neutral potable spirits without need for further process"

That's 50% of your wishes. If I were buying a $10 item and it didn't meet 50% of my requirements I'd abandon it without further thought.


already brought up is the fact that you will need another distillation device to run spirit runs. There's the space saving gone.

[bellybuster]

what could possibly be more space saving than using the 6L pintoshine Kentucky pot still that you are already building. Adding a stripping still is not saving space its using space.

tell me you meant 6 gallons and not 6 litres

[JaCh]

you also stated as an essential
"must be simple to make"
"must be simple to run"

Simple to make has not been met because the design is still a concept.
Simple to run I feel is met:
-Maintain temp by adjusting reflux
-Maintain output purity by adjusting wash input rate

You also stated as a desirable that it
"Must remove majority of tails"
"Must remove heads"
"Must produce neutral potable spirits without need for further process"

If these were possible it would be fantastic, they are desirable as opposed to essential because I don't see how they can be completed easily.

already brought up is the fact that you will need another distillation device to run spirit runs. There's the space saving gone.

Less space would be used than having a large boiler. My current design could easily be stored under a shelf unit/at the bottom of a wardrobe.
The pot still can be left out as an "ornament".

[bellybuster]

I'm out.