Fermenting grapes for Brandy

bertuseng · Post by **bertuseng** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:54 am

I am attempting my first proper Brandy that I want to distill from grapes. Here is what I did with the mashing and fermentation, please feel free to let me know if it will work and what you think... If this goes according to plan, I will post it in the recipe's section. First want to see if the fermentation works well.

I used about 15kg grapes. I took the stems and rotten ones out.

I took these good grapes and mashed them with a potato masher real good to a pulp in a big stock pot.

I then took all the juice as well as the skins and pips that I mashed, and put everything in my fermenting vessel which is a 23l plastic brew bucket. At this stage I had about 15l of mash.

I added some water to it and a little bit of sugar (1-2 cups) to increase the yield and now had about 20l. I measured the gravity which was at about 1070 at this stage.

I adjusted the temperature to about 20 degrees celcius.

I then added my "Pot distillers yeast with nutrients". I bought this as a packet from my home distilling shop. I gave it a very rigorous stir with a big wooden spoon and closed the lid and put a grommet on.

I then left it for about an hour. After this time, I remembered that I actually had to check the PH level before I added the yeast.

I opened the fermentation bucket and checked the PH with a PH strip. It was about PH 5. I read that it must be between 3 and 4, so I added some lemon juice, which brought it down to about 4. (ran out of lemon juice).

I mixed it a bit with a spoon again and closed the lid.

That's it! These are the exact steps that I took. Now I just need to wait and see how the fermentation runs. I heard it should take at least a week to finish fermenting. After this time, I will distill it, or double ferment it. Not sure how I should proceed. I have a pot still.

Any feedback about any of the above steps would be much appreciated. The only way to get better at this would be to learn from experienced people like yourself and trial and error on my side. hopefully some feedback from you would make the trial and error stuff a bit easier for me. hehe.

Will keep you updated on the progresss.

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:47 am

I then added my "Pot distillers yeast with nutrients". I bought this as a packet from my home distilling shop.

That's the only problem I see. Using a turbo yeast for a brandy. You would have been better off using a good wine yeast. And the grapes should have plenty of nutrients in them. So no need to add more. Don't let the brew shop guy tell you that you need that crap yeast. You don't. And you really don't want it. Because its crap.

Hopefully it won't give what you have worked so hard on an off flavor?

The brandy purests wouldn't approve of the sugar. But hey most all of us have done it. And still do it. 1.070 sounds like a good starting point. So the sugar wasn't over done.

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:53 pm

Recently finished my first brandy

Trod the grapes in the fermenter while red wine yeast was re-activating
Pulled out the stalks
Checked the SG
Checked the pH for interests sake, but had no intention of adjusting it
Chucked in the yeast and threw a towel over it.
Pushed the chapeau down twice a day until it finished.
Pressed. Saved the pressings for grappa.
Tossed the first 150ml of foreshot for every 25l of wine
Kept all until the collected low wines reached 30%.
Spirit run, Tasted the first 100ml, it was nice so threw it back into the collection jar.
Ran until the collected brandy reached 62.5%
Even as young white dog it is nice. I'm really looking forward to tasting it in a couple of years.

Made grappa using the backset and pressings http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p7201050
The grappa has turned out very nice and I highly recommend using your brandy leftovers to make some.

Post by **Jimbo** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:37 pm

Prairiepiss wrote:
The brandy purests wouldn't approve of the sugar. But hey most all of us have done it. And still do it. 1.070 sounds like a good starting point. So the sugar wasn't over done.

We've all jerked off too. That dont mean you can call it making love, or that it compares to the real thing (I suppose in some cases it could HA!). Its not brandy now, its a sugarhead. If youre into quantity over quality great. Otherwise, drop the sugar. There is not a single brandy, cognac or calvados producer that would EVER add sugar to their product. Not even bottom shelf Christian Brothers jug brandy. It really does affect the quality, dilutes the flavors and adds a sugar bite that is unmistakable. Why take all the time and care to make a craft product and handicap it right out of the gate?

That being said, it isint ruined. It just isint as good as it could be.

EC-1118 is a great yeast for fruit ferments. Ferment out clean and fully.

cb_j · Post by **cb_j** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:41 pm

It was only 1 - 2 cups sugar, what made you add such a small amount?

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:42 pm

Jimbo wrote:
Prairiepiss wrote:
The brandy purests wouldn't approve of the sugar. But hey most all of us have done it. And still do it. 1.070 sounds like a good starting point. So the sugar wasn't over done.
We've all jerked off too. That dont mean you can call it making love, or that it compares to the real thing (I suppose in some cases it could HA!). Its not brandy now, its a sugarhead. If youre into quantity over quality great. Otherwise, drop the sugar. There is not a single brandy, cognac or calvados producer that would EVER add sugar to their product. Not even bottom shelf Christian Brothers jug brandy. It really does affect the quality, dilutes the flavors and adds a sugar bite that is unmistakable. Why take all the time and care to make a craft product and handicap it right out of the gate?

That being said, it isint ruined. It just isint as good as it could be.

EC-1118 is a great yeast for fruit ferments. Ferment out clean and fully.

See told you.

So its a faux brandy. Just like all the other sugarheads everyone makes.

Post by **Jimbo** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:00 pm

Lol. Why make faux when real is one ingredient simpler.

bertuseng · Post by **bertuseng** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:53 pm

1Day - Update:

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I checked the fermentation bucket this morning and its bubbling away nicely, so that is always a good sign, hehe.

After all the feedback, I am pretty upset with myself over adding that little bit of sugar.

To be honest, I didnt know that it would have a huge effect. 1 or 2 cups per 20l bucket... The only reason I added it is to increase the amount of potential liquer. My grapes were really only enough to make about 15l wine, and I thought if I added another 5 l, it would really increase my total yield at the end if I had at least 20l wine to work with. That way I can do two runs. Because I added a few extra liters of water, I had to adjust the sugar content. I didnt even think that that small amount of sugar would have much of an influence in the quality. Guess its too late to worry about that now...

Would aging improve the quality and make up for the sugar I added?

Also not sure what influence the yeast added would have. I really didnt have a clue to which Yeast to buy. I read that the pot distillers yeast was good for any fruit fermentations and I thought the added nutrients would help, as I had no idea if that was needed or not. Also didnt know it would have a huge impact. I guess every little thing has an impact on the taste. Will have to wait and see how much. hehe.

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:52 am

Don't worry too much about the negative comments, your 'brandy' should be a good drinkable drop, just don't expect it to age to be a great brandy.

I've been adding water and sugar to my grapes for years. Didn't call it brandy, just called it grappa. Cheap plonk for the workers ... mostly me, always drunk and enjoyed as white dog. I'm hoping this year's pure grape brandy will age well while I enjoy the superb white dog grappa I made from the leftovers.

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:47 am

1 or 2 cups sugar wont have a 'huge' effect. Dont sweat it this time. Like P said we've all done it. Now youll have a baseline to compare straight fruit and better yeast next time. Then you can be your own judge.

crazyk78 · Post by **crazyk78** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:13 am

So for a pure brandy we should use just grapes and in berts case should of mashed 20l of grapes?

From say a 20l pure grape mash, how much liquid would one expect to rack off?

Did you use white or red grapes?

PS I love this thread

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:02 am

Smash what you got and ferment. Nice thing about brandy is you don't need to sweat brix. Wine makers need to hit 12 or 13% alc. Thats not easy to do with straight fruit. For us at home we'll rarely hit that brix (21-25, 1.085+) with our grapes but it doesn't matter. If you make a 7% wine. Thats f9ne. Its getting distilled anyway

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:08 am

crazyk78 wrote:So for a pure brandy we should use just grapes and in berts case should of mashed 20l of grapes?

If you want good flavor, yes. Bert should do whatever he wants with what he's got.

crazyk78 wrote:From say a 20l pure grape mash, how much liquid would one expect to rack off?

Dunno. I racked off some of my 80l for bubbly after a couple of days. The rest didn't get racked, it got pressed and I didn't measure anything. It produced 6l of brandy @ 62.5%

crazyk78 wrote:Did you use white or red grapes?

I used red cos that's what I've got, but I have planted white for future brandies and wines and will have a go at grafting to convert some of the red vines to the white.

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:11 am

PS: Something I see as a recurring theme here by folks is overcomplicating everything. Humans have been smashing grapes to get drunk for thousands of years. Dont think too hard. Rinse em off and smash em. Done. Add your own yeast if you're so inclined. Optional.

crazyk78 · Post by **crazyk78** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:30 pm

Yes I'm probably guilty of that !

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:32 pm

You're overthinking it Jimbo. I've never rinsed grapes for anything.

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:33 pm

bahahaha touche

Post by **T-Pee** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:25 pm

(Staying out of this as I've already been down this road in......Iceland.)

tp

Post by **rad14701** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:46 pm

Keep an eye on the pH of that wash/must because 3 - 4 is where yeast go dormant and/or die due to the acidity... A pH of 5.2, or a bit higher, would be better when you plan on distilling a wash fermented to dry... With wines you rarely ferment to fully dry which is why a lower pH is advantageous because the yeast will stop producing alcohol before all of the sugar has been consumed and converted to alcohol...

crazyk78 · Post by **crazyk78** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:42 pm

So should you buffer through the run to a ph 5 or just ensure that you start with 5?

Post by **Jimbo** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:27 pm

I never messed with the pH of straight apple or grape juice and never had an issue. Always ferments sub 1.000. Maybe I been lucky but I dont think wineries or cider makers mess with ph either. I dont like to add anything but yeast. Never needed nutrients either. All natural seems just fine with mother natures yeast.

Post by **Halfbaked** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:10 pm

bertuseng wrote:1Day - Update:

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I checked the fermentation bucket this morning and its bubbling away nicely, so that is always a good sign, hehe.

After all the feedback, I am pretty upset with myself over adding that little bit of sugar. To be honest, I didnt know that it would have a huge effect..

You have not messed up at all. What you have done is created an experiment that you will learn from. On your next grape brandy put no sugar in it and see what effects sugar has. Keep excellent notes on what you have done are doing and resluts and do things exactly the same on the next one minus the sugar. See what you think. That is what is most important after all. Can you taste 2 cups of diff in 1 or the other? Have someone set you up in a blind taste test. Then set them up also.

bertuseng · Post by **bertuseng** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:16 am

Thanks for all the advice guys.

At this stage, everything from the fermentation is running smoothly.

I am stirring it once a day and pushing all the pieces more to the bottom.

Will see how it turns out

Post by **T-Pee** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:20 am

bertuseng wrote:Thanks for all the advice guys.

At this stage, everything from the fermentation is running smoothly.

I am stirring it once a day and pushing all the pieces more to the bottom.

Will see how it turns out

Leave it alone. It'll settle out on its own when it finishes. You're more risking an infection than doing good.

tp

Post by **Prairiepiss** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:21 am

Every time you stir and mess with it. You are potentially introducing bad bacteria. Which could infect and ruin you ferment. You are also disturbing the protective CO2 layer. Making it easier for those bacteria to take hold.

Post by **rad14701** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:33 pm

Sit on your hands and watch the mesmerizing airlock...!!!

NZChris · Post by **NZChris** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:59 pm

Both my brandy and grappa ferments took five days. Not long enough for the baddies to do any damage.

Having a bit of head space in the fermenter helps trap the CO2. Keep your pusher clean and sterilize it.

Recently a TV reporter went live in Sileni Estates winery getting a demo on how to push the cap down on their Special Reserve Merlot. Open vats, gangplank over the top, manual pusher.
http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/sam-vi ... eo-5869466

Post by **Jimbo** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:05 pm

I always let my cider go for 30 days. It ferments out fully into sub 1.000 and clears up nice. Some goes in a carboy to age longer for cider, the rest gets dumped in the still.

As youve heard 12 times now, keep it simple, squash, ferment (NO touchy), run.

crazyk78 · Post by **crazyk78** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:23 pm

If your fermenting 100% grapes do you need to add water to increase the volume ?

Post by **T-Pee** » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:25 pm

Shouldn't need to. Neither do you need to with apple juice. Take your starting SG readings and go from there.

tp

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