Wiring question

[rgreen2002]

So I put together this little number over the weekend and I had a quick question...

My Controller

The fan is a 12v D/C computer fan I have run to a separate DC wall adapter. I have a 10,000W SCR in there as my controller and my meter gets is power from the SCR. Could I run the fan from the SCR without burning the the thing up?

[rad14701]

Could I run the fan from the SCR without burning the the thing up?

No... If in question, check the voltage going into the display... 240V AC is totally different from 5V or 12V DC...

[rgreen2002]

That's what I thought.... just checking. Much appreciated rad!

[still_stirrin]

Exactly as Rad said rgreen.

Your SCR is 240 VAC (rail voltage). For the DC fan, you'll need a transformer and rectifier. A 240 VAC to 12 VDC wall wart would probably do it for you. But make sure it has adequate amperage to run the fan (you probably need at least 1000 mA). For grins, I'd recommend a switch for the fan too, and maybe even a 12 VDC peanut lamp to indicate that it is powered.
ss

[rgreen2002]

Exactly as Rad said rgreen.

Your SCR is 240 VAC (rail voltage). For the DC fan, you'll need a transformer and rectifier. A 240 VAC to 12 VDC wall wart would probably do it for you. But make sure it has adequate amperage to run the fan (you probably need at least 1000 mA). For grins, I'd recommend a switch for the fan too, and maybe even a 12 VDC peanut lamp to indicate that it is powered.
ss

Thanks SS... I actually had an LED fan that could have subbed for the light but it was "re-purposed" it for another job. I do like the switch idea...

I didn't think that it would work when I wired to box so right now I have a 120 ac to 12v dc power supply (like an old cordless phone PS or something) that I ran into the box separately that works fine...just another plug to monkey with...

[still_stirrin]

rgreen,

If your 240 VAC has 2 hot legs and a neutral (separate phases), you could pull 120 VAC from one leg and the neutral inside your box. That way, you may be able to stuff it all inside your box (if you have room).

And I'd still recommend a switch for the fan and light (so you can visually see that the fan is on). Other noises in the still house may preclude you hearing the fan, so the light is a safety feature.

I usually turn the cooling fan on before I power up the heating circuit. And I let it continue for a few minutes after shutdown to cool the triac heat sink.
ss

[Swedish Pride]

I have all power in my one going through a kill switch, good advice i got from HDNB.
easier than pulling a plug if the run goes pear shaped, even got to use it once.

[rgreen2002]

rgreen,

If your 240 VAC has 2 hot legs and a neutral (separate phases), you could pull 120 VAC from one leg and the neutral inside your box. That way, you may be able to stuff it all inside your box (if you have room).

And I'd still recommend a switch for the fan and light (so you can visually see that the fan is on). Other noises in the still house may preclude you hearing the fan, so the light is a safety feature.

I usually turn the cooling fan on before I power up the heating circuit. And I let it continue for a few minutes after shutdown to cool the triac heat sink.
ss

Man I do like the idea of all the wiring in the box. I believe my SCR has two separate hot legs and the neutral I passed through to the ground on the keg. I will have to check it out. If this is the case then I could connect the volt/ammeter hot leg to the input and ground to the box somewhere?

I actually have a small 15 amp lighted switch that I could wire up to the fan as well.

I have all power in my one going through a kill switch, good advice i got from HDNB.
easier than pulling a plug if the run goes pear shaped, even got to use it once.

SP - I hope the kill switch kept the problem at bay for you!

Also... I agree 100%. Left that corner of the box for just that reason ...either a breaker or a kill switch. My box is about 15 feet from the outlet and another 5 feet from the keg so neither is as fast as a kill switch. Just gotta find a good switch.

Now I remember this switch being talked about in one thread ... http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FZS ... ge_o08_s00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow and I remember bookmarking another site I found in a thread that had a ton of cool switches....I just gotta remember where the hell I put that bookmark!

Worst case scenario I could get a 30 amp wall switch from Lowes?

[rgreen2002]

Kill

OK...i'm really digging this one..

http://www.sears.com/unique-bargains-ac ... erId=29267" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Swedish Pride]

can't see why a switch rated at 30A shouldn't be enough.
I got switch that is standard for the stoves here, they are rated 45A even though it's only 30A going to it.
Yep worked a teat

[acfixer69]

Switch.jpg

OK...i'm really digging this one..

http://www.sears.com/unique-bargains-ac ... erId=29267" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Those are handy but for pilot duty only. No good for a load circut.

AC

[skow69]

Ditto. Either of those switches will burn up the second you turn them on. You don't need double throw and you don't need 3 phase. If you are convinced you need to run all the power thru it, then you do need double pole. And basically, any switch you see for less than $30 is probably to light for the job.

Consider this one. http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-MS302-DS- ... ATRARRY0B4

[pfshine]

I bought a 240 fan on Amazon for pretty cheap and cools everything off perfect. I run my power in to a two pole switch I got for pretty cheap at home repo. I wired the fan right to the switch with the lines going to the scr. That way once I turn power to the box on the fan is on no matter what, if the fan loses power so does the scr. The main reason I got the 240 fan is I have a small box and didn't want to dick around with wall worts and whatnot that takes up space.

[Tomb]

Just a question about your meter....

I understand it connects across the load to measure the voltage and uses a current transformer for current.

Does it still function properly when the power is turned down low?

(I read that it started flickering at below 85V, and for keeping a mash warm I run at less than that)

(If you powered it from the line side it would always read 240 and the wattage would not be correct)

T

[cob]

I actually have a small 15 amp lighted switch that I could wire up to the fan as well.

make sure you wire the indicator lamp in series with the fan not parallel. in series the lamp should go out if the fan fails.

in parallel it will not go out. and only indicates that the switch and circuit has power

[skow69]

Just a question about your meter....

I understand it connects across the load to measure the voltage and uses a current transformer for current.

Does it still function properly when the power is turned down low?

(I read that it started flickering at below 85V, and for keeping a mash warm I run at less than that)

(If you powered it from the line side it would always read 240 and the wattage would not be correct)

T

There are really smart power meters for reasonable prices now that solve that problem. Check this out. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 85&t=55602

[rgreen2002]

Switch.jpg

OK...i'm really digging this one..

http://www.sears.com/unique-bargains-ac ... erId=29267" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I was just sayin I like this type of this switch....like a panic switch. Thanks for looking out though folks!! Greatly appreciated.

Ditto. Either of those switches will burn up the second you turn them on. You don't need double throw and you don't need 3 phase. If you are convinced you need to run all the power thru it, then you do need double pole. And basically, any switch you see for less than $30 is probably to light for the job.

Consider this one. http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-MS302-DS- ... ATRARRY0B4

She's in the que and I will order it up over the next few days. Thanks Skow!

I bought a 240 fan on Amazon for pretty cheap and cools everything off perfect. I run my power in to a two pole switch I got for pretty cheap at home repo. I wired the fan right to the switch with the lines going to the scr. That way once I turn power to the box on the fan is on no matter what, if the fan loses power so does the scr. The main reason I got the 240 fan is I have a small box and didn't want to dick around with wall worts and whatnot that takes up space.

HOLY S**T.... its funny you mention it pfshine....I recently had to have my electric rangetop replaced because of a bad element. The thing had a nice 240V fan and I thought .... I should keep that thing... Just in case.... I may have found a home for it instead of the CPU fan. Now I just gotta find it!

Just a question about your meter....

I understand it connects across the load to measure the voltage and uses a current transformer for current.

Does it still function properly when the power is turned down low?

(I read that it started flickering at below 85V, and for keeping a mash warm I run at less than that)

(If you powered it from the line side it would always read 240 and the wattage would not be correct)

T

There are really smart power meters for reasonable prices now that solve that problem. Check this out. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 85&t=55602

Tomb - the meter functions properly down to 80Vac. Lower than that it turns off, yes. Planning on using it to run my flute so I don't anticipate that being an issue, but for your needs I think you are correct.

skow....thanks...I never saw that post before and I'm just a bit confused by it...

My meter is from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/80-260V-BAYITE-PZ ... ge_o07_s00" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

with the specs below...

Main Specifications:

Working voltage: 80 ~ 260VAC
Working frequency: 50/60Hz
Measuring:Accuracy: 1%
Power Consumption: 0.2W
Measurement speed: 2 times/s
Store data when power off
The blue backlight can be turned on/off manually

Test Range and Display format:

1.Power: test range: 0~22kW
< 1kW, display: 0.0~999.9W
1kW~10kW, display: 1000~9999W
> 10kW, display: 0.1~22.0kW
2.Energy: test range: 0~9999kWh
<10KWh, display: 0~9999Wh
>10kWh, display: 10~9999kWh
3.Voltage: test range: 80~260V(single-phase)
Display: 80~260V
4.Current: test range: 0~100A
Display: 0.00~99.99A

So my meter can only display active power in a range that is suitable for me to run my still as far as I have understood the reading in the controller posts I've read before. What I got from that post you gave me was your last comments suggesting that I am not really looking at voltage but power. Are you still using it the same way? Running based on watts?

Edwins comment about not plugging the meter into the scr due to its need for undistorted sine wave power has me a little confused as well..

[skow69]

As I understand it...You connect it to the line side and it is so smart it can measure the power going thru it in watts. It will display that and the current in amps. If you want to know the voltage going out you can then calculate it as watts/amps, but monitoring the power instead of voltage is really more sensitive and meaningful for our purposes because it displays changes of voltage and current both in one metric. So "wattage" is a better indicator of how much heat is being produced. Once you try monitoring the power you won't care about voltage because it is already incorporated. I hope that makes sense.

[still_stirrin]

+1 skow. Voltage "rides along for free".

I have an analog ammeter to monitor. The current is linear to the turn of the pot, so it's easy to adjust. But I know that power is proportional to the square of the current, so it rises fast when increasing the current.

Here's the point....once you know how your still boils, it doesn't really matter which method you use: 1) numbers on the potentiometer, 2) power meter (watts), 3) current (amps), etc. You'll know when to dial up and when to dial back. And the meter (or whatever) will just give you a "ballpark" to aim for.

And analog ammeters are cheap and easy to install too. Plus, they average the current nicely. And it is a throwback to the golden era of "bouncing needles" on electronic equipment. Whatcha' think Rad?
ss

[skow69]

I'm a big fan of analog, moving coil meters. As long as the precision is sufficient for the application, they kick ass for ease of use, aesthetics and funk appeal. Digi's got the resolution, but it ain't got no soul.

Here is my controller. [Stop laughing, I even cleaned it up for the picture.] My kid took the fancy power meter for some project of his before I even got it installed. That's all right. This is like the instrumentation equivalent of a tube amp. Har!

controller rat. jpg

[rgreen2002]

As I understand it...You connect it to the line side and it is so smart it can measure the power going thru it in watts. It will display that and the current in amps. If you want to know the voltage going out you can then calculate it as watts/amps, but monitoring the power instead of voltage is really more sensitive and meaningful for our purposes because it displays changes of voltage and current both in one metric. So "wattage" is a better indicator of how much heat is being produced. Once you try monitoring the power you won't care about voltage because it is already incorporated. I hope that makes sense.

+1 skow. Voltage "rides along for free".

I have an analog ammeter to monitor. The current is linear to the turn of the pot, so it's easy to adjust. But I know that power is proportional to the square of the current, so it rises fast when increasing the current.

Here's the point....once you know how your still boils, it doesn't really matter which method you use: 1) numbers on the potentiometer, 2) power meter (watts), 3) current (amps), etc. You'll know when to dial up and when to dial back. And the meter (or whatever) will just give you a "ballpark" to aim for.

And analog ammeters are cheap and easy to install too. Plus, they average the current nicely. And it is a throwback to the golden era of "bouncing needles" on electronic equipment. Whatcha' think Rad?
ss

Makes perfect sense and is exactly what I was thinking. As long as I can use the power as a reference for "input" then I can follow the "results" (boiler activity). My meter is connected to the load side of the SCR (the current transformer(?) is around only one leg actually) and seems to give appropriate numbers based on my math.

I will admit there was a part of me that would have liked to go old school analog but when I was looking at meters I wasn't sure which I wanted from reading (volt, amp, watt...) and I didn't have room for multiple meters so I copped out and went sleek digital.

Thanks skow and SS for the input!

PS: skow that's a fine looking retro power box.... ain't no shame in that! I need to figure out what "gradations" I will put under the power rheostat... I was going for "Chernobyl" but somebody beat me to it (in case goinbroke2 is reading along...)

[rgreen2002]

Dorpped this on another post I am working in but I thought since you all gave me the help I should put it here as well...

Safe..

Kill switch works like a charm and I connected the meter to the switch as well so it lights up to tell me when the switch is on(...just in case). I gotta look into that 240V fan...its a little bigger but I think I might still fit! All the suggestions and help truly appreciated guys... keep it coming.

[pfshine]

Just a tip for you. That meter started to get hot and darkened the screen from the lower left radiating up and out, the first time I used it. I popped the back off of it and everything is all gravy now that it has airflow.

[rgreen2002]

Just a tip for you. That meter started to get hot and darkened the screen from the lower left radiating up and out, the first time I used it. I popped the back off of it and everything is all gravy now that it has airflow.

Thanks pf... I'm going to boil 12 gallons of water today so I will be on the lookout!

[rgreen2002]

Just a little update on my controller. To date I have had 3 runs; a water run for a little over an hour, a spirit cleaning run for a few hours and a final product run for over 4 hours with no issues. The box stayed cool and the meter functioned perfectly to my eyes. Looks like a go for now.

[Tomb]

I want to still see the display when I go down to 100w, even if it is not completely accurate, as it will allow me to set the same amount each time.

I think it may be possible to do some hacking and split the voltage supply from the sensing. In other words, have the unit supplied with power before the triac and the have the voltage sense after the triac.

If it does not work as expected it is not a big expense.

Thanks

T

[skow69]

That was my first thought also. It turns out that is not necessary. See this discussion: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 85&t=55602

[rgreen2002]

Tomb, I actually had to rewire it to make a change ( I wanted to actually fix the SCR itself to the front of the box and not just use the knob). I can now get all the way down to zero and see the display. The responsiveness of my still to this controller is amazing and being able to just dial it in is so much better than the guess work i was doing. Much like the post skow mentioned I don't know how accurate the volt side is but I am using the watts for guidance and it works well.

[pointhunter75]

Rgreen, how did you get the meter to read down to zero instead of the 80v that it's rated for? I'm wanting to order that meter just because it looks so cool. Still working fine? I've got the 8x8x6" box from home depot, 30a 2pole 240v switch from home depot, 10-4 600v wire and the 10000 scr, and camco 5500k element and a 15.5gallon sanke keg with 2" pot still head. I shouldn't have to go that low on a pot still from what I've read should I?

[rgreen2002]

Rgreen, how did you get the meter to read down to zero instead of the 80v that it's rated for? I'm wanting to order that meter just because it looks so cool. Still working fine? I've got the 8x8x6" box from home depot, 30a 2pole 240v switch from home depot, 10-4 600v wire and the 10000 scr, and camco 5500k element and a 15.5gallon sanke keg with 2" pot still head. I shouldn't have to go that low on a pot still from what I've read should I?

Yeah..... so interesting story. When I first wired it up it didn't read zero. For some reason (i forget exactly why now....OH...maybe to put the switch in.... ) I took it apart and rewired it. When I put it back together I moved the ferrite ring inductor and BAM... zero!

Take a look at this thread for my wiring job: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62655

ddizzle22 made nearly the same box with good results I believe.

She works like a charm and I have used her many many times with no complaints. Recently switched to al all stainless 5500W element which just looks sweet in the keg too...

As far as how low... I have three holes in my boiler. The lowest one is the drain because I was too stupid to flip the keg over originally ( ), then i have two 1.5 inch ports for elements. I used to run two elements at 120v before I went 220. Now I run two elements at 120 and 220V... the heat up time is super fast (of course I did weld 2 kegs together to create an about a 25 gallon pot).

But I digress.... I would recommend going as low as you can... two reasons: 1. the lower you go the less charge you put into the boiler (make smaller runs in the same keg) and 2. just bucause you run a pot now...doesn't mean you won't change later!